Updates Give us a Break!!!!!

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:48 AM

Doc B:

David Taylor Jr:
1.  You keep saying you paid a lot for the program.  Not true.  The program (engine) is free and has only had 4 updates since the launch.  You PAY for resources.

I had decided to stay out of this one because I haven't drank the kool-aid, and that usually gets me in trouble around here. But I can't leave this one alone.

(And I'm NOT picking you you, David. You are a good guy who's helped me and others on the forums. You were just unlucky enough to have this posted where I could quote it. My apologies to you up front.)

OK...

I'm getting a bit tired of the false dichotomy that's Logos has set up between the "engine" and the "resources". One is worthless without the other, and when most people, especially newbies to the forums say "software", they are talking about the whole package. To correct their perception without answering (or to avoid answering) their question is not helpful. Electronic resources aren't really 'resources' by any meaningful definition over against 'software' by any meaningful definition. Holding someone's feet to the fire because they said they paid a lot for "software" instead of "resources" is simply a logical fallacy.

To make another analogy (that I'm sure will get shot down by the forum police), that's like saying Microsoft Word is free, but the toolbars and commands are what you pay for.

C'mon man. He paid a lot for the "software". He wants it to work. The posts telling him how to turn off or manage updates are helpful. The posts telling him he doesn't have the right vocabulary, or doesn't appreciate Faithlife the company, are not.

Shoot all you want. That's a Class IV vest I'm wearing in the pic.

No offense taken.  I do want to say the software DOES work and it works beautifully.  I use it every day.  I agree it is confusing, I even agree that I think SOME resources that are in public domain should come with the engine just to throw people a bone.  But in reality, you could download the engine, buy one 10 dollar Bible and then never pay anything again and just download the free books.  You aren't putting money into the software, though I can see why people have that misconception.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:48 AM

Doc B:

C'mon man. He paid a lot for the "software". He wants it to work. The posts telling him how to turn off or manage updates are helpful. The posts telling him he doesn't have the right vocabulary, or doesn't appreciate Faithlife the company, are not.

I agree although moving his towards standard vocabulary will help him in future forum postings.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:48 AM

Josh:

David Taylor Jr:

Anyone in the world can download L5 today if they want no matter if they purchased a L6 package or not.

Yes, because this is quite intuitive/obvious to new users who just purchased L6.

I was simply correcting the notion that it cannot be done or is not available.

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 11:58 AM

A revision of L6/Verbum 6 should implement a setting so that users could choose if a) all resource updates are to be downloaded. Or b) just the ones that correct severe errors, introduce for example the Logos Controlled Vocabulary or other major functionality, and typo corrections should ship to them at longer intervals:

David Taylor Jr:
But how do you strike the balance with those of us who do want the updates as soon as they are ready?

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 12:00 PM

Unix:

A revision of L6/Verbum 6 should implement a setting so that users could choose if a) all resource updates are to be downloaded. Or b) just the ones that correct severe errors, introduce for example the Logos Control Vocabulary or other major functionality, and typo corrections should ship to them at longer intervals:

David Taylor Jr:
But how do you strike the balance with those of us who do want the updates as soon as they are ready?

It seems like that would add unnecessary amounts of work to the development team when it is only a handful of people who would want that feature.

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 12:04 PM

It may only be a handful but many of those would be in a desperate need of such a setting, of which many would choose to stay with Logos/Verbum if such a functionality would be introduced. The fact that many have limitations for internet use, is a circumstance that will remain.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 12:13 PM

Unix:

It may only be a handful but many of those would be in a desperate need of such a setting, of which many would choose to stay with Logos/Verbum if such a functionality would be introduced. The fact that many have limitations for internet use, is a circumstance that will remain.

I guess I'm just not convinced that out of the 2 million+ customers Faithlife has that there are many with internet limitations.  I understand it affects you and others who have posted here, but I would say you are in a small percentage.  Logos also offers ways to get resources without downloads, just contact them and they can help you out.  There are also options of internet cafe's (check with the establishment first) and libraries (same logic applies).

Logos makes no secret that they are going more and more internet based. When more and more things are cloud based, more and more internet is required.  This isn't just Logos, this is a trend that is going to continue as technology moves on.  Unfortunately that is a fact of life in the 21st century.

I don't want to sound like I don't care about you and others who have frustrations, I do care, I promise.  But I don't understand some of the unfounded complaints.  I get data restrictions, that is legitimate.  But to complain about 4 service releases within the first month of roll-out is a bit over the top.

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 12:27 PM

I may be in the minority even if You compare across the globe, but I choose not to pay anything at all for internet. Even though I live in a densely populated area in a somewhat developed country, there's no optical fibre to this apartment building. ADSL is way too expensive - I could never afford it, and slow, it would work through the copper lines though. If I update Logos/Verbum I go the uni in the evening, they have fast internet over there, but I very rarely take the desktop computers there.

I really don't need internet for most things. When the time comes when I don't have internet anymore, I will always be able to sit outside the public library just approximately little more than 150 feet from my apartment, at least when the weather is not bad or too cold. As a matter of fact I would get more done without internet because the temptation to discuss would be smaller. I rather use the desk phone at home and discuss with one person at a time.

No it's not obvious that internet is needed for much of the functionality in Logos/Verbum, few features require an internet connection and they have clearly said that the only reason was that those databases would not fit on the disks of the average users.

Look across the globe, there's poor internet in many countries or districts, where hundreds of millions people live. Very few of them are Logos/Verbum customers of course, as there are cheaper competing softwares/resources.

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 1:02 PM

I'm still reading through he thread (page 3 at the moment). 

I have a family member who owns/has owned or been president of a variety of fortune 500 companies. A few companies that you may have heard of are Amway, and the merchandising side of Disney, and family christian supply (though I don't know if any of these three are fortune 500, they are certainly household names, nor is that an exhaustive list). 

He retired a multi-gagillionaire. I don't actually know his net worth (nor would I ask), but lets just say he's more than comfortable living in a beautiful home on the side of a mountain on an island in the middle of the Atlantic. 

All that to say this, he came up with 10 rules for business success.One of which was that you make more money if you ship on time, than if you ship when the product is complete. IE its better from a bottom line perspective to finish the product once people have it, than to delay a product, ship a better product, but ship it late. 

This concept then seems to be a reality in business; and we shouldn't be surprised to see it in Logos. Faithlife is after-all a business. 

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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 1:07 PM

Faithlife is making use of a lot of free labour (such as the forums) + some of the workers in Bellingham get a rather small pay-check and many of them perhaps a little too little or at least I've heard a few complain. I wish they would not try exactly as hard as they are now, to be competitive by quantity.

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 1:20 PM

Josh:
 I think if anything, the Logos forums has more "fanboys" than critics. 


I've been called this before, and I can see where people could get that impression. 

Logos is not the most easy to use piece of software in existence. I feel like its getting better, and is (no offence intended) parsecs better than logos 3 (or 4 for that matter) and is incrementally better than 5. 

That said, my father, who has worked in technology (desktop support, back office support, programming (though not recently), and electronics engineering before that) for all of his life. Bearing in mind he is a man who at one point worked as a liazon  between MS and his company to push the bounds of what people that Windows was capable of. This man - is intimidated by logos. 


I am quick to criticize logos when I don't get what was advertised, and am quick to hold them to their promise of certain prices as my salesman can attest :). 

As quick as I am to be critical, I want to be equally fast in offering praise where its due. Spending their time and money to make something I already purchased better at no charge is something I will never EVER complain about. 

If you bought a computer, and a week later, they mail you more ram, and a month later mail you a bigger ssd, and a year later mail you a larger LCD - thats basically what they are doing as it relates to resources. I won't ever complain about the shipping time, or how long it takes me to add these free extras to my computer. I may not install them the moment they come through the door (ok... who am I kidding, I'm a computer geek, life would go on hold while I did these things), but thats my option. That is also the option Logos gives its users. You can wait to download it, wait to install it, or install it right away. Those of us that appreciate the new features and are quick to jump into these sorts of things ought not be punished by a vocal minority of those that don't. 

Someone said forums are a place people with problems go for support. In my experience in the IT field, there are a couple of different kinds of problems. 

Real problems - problems that do need address... IE your mouse quits working. You need a new mouse. Fine, thats a real problem. 
and Problems of Perception - these problems feel very real to the person experiencing them, but in the grand scheme of things aren't really problems. For example over a decade ago now, when cellular phones were analog and computer displays used CRT technology this lady who I supported would get a phone call from her daughter EVERY day at 3. Every day at 3:15 I would get a phone call that her display was going bad. 

Those of you that know tech, know that old cellphones and old displays caused flickering when one was in proximity to the other. 

EVERY day I had to explain to her its not her display, its the frequency her cellphone is using interfering with the color guns inside her display. Every day! lol She was a dear old woman and we became good friends. But never the less her perception and reality didn't line up.

When someone is giving you something nice (resource updates), or necessary (software updates) don't complain that they aren't doing it on your schedule. Take the gift, and then when you have the time, use the gift. 

For a missionary in the middle of a desert, living in a mud hut without internet, that may mean the gift sits on a shelf for months until he goes to a city.

For /most/ (but not all) Americans, and individuals living in a modernized nation - that most likely means waiting till you're ready for bed. Kicking off the update, waiting for the download to start, and then closing Logos while leaving your computer to run. By morning, your gift has installed its self.

Apologies for the length. But this is something I see ALL THE TIME; and sometimes it comes across as being un-gracious. Sometimes its warranted. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 1:38 PM

Unix, I don't know where you get your information. Logos consistently earns "best places to work" awards, Americans consistently complain they are paid too little and forums for most software are primarily "staffed" by volunteers -- and if there were any compensation if would not be apparent to you. The problem on the forums with presenting as fact what you do not know is that thousands of people read it and not all know you are just talking -- they think you are speaking from knowledge and therefore spread the non-information as fact. You end up hurting their credibility.

But this is far OT - the OP has raised a concern, been given plausible alternatives currently available and the knowledge to request that additional alternatives be added. This is the kind of case where I wish the forums had threads closed when the OP says their question has been answered.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 2:30 PM

Doc B:
I haven't drank the kool-aid, and that usually gets me in trouble around here.

Some don't understand the difference between having a disagreement (even a strong one) and being disagreeable.

Doc B:
I'm getting a bit tired of the false dichotomy that's Logos has set up between the "engine" and the "resources". One is worthless without the other

Yes, but their IS a dichotomy. If the user doesn't like all the updates, then why update? Stay on L5! (Of course, this is where my comment came in above about being able to distinguish between resource and software updates. It would be very helpful if Logos allowed us to choose between those two).

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 2:32 PM

Agree that this thread should be closed. The OP has been broadsided for being "unfair", "not objective", "ranting", and generally picked apart for saying the things he said and even for things he did not say and/or failed to say.

This is fanboyism in action. If I were him, I would think twice before wading in this pool again.

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Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 3:03 PM

MJ. Smith:
 I agree although moving his towards standard vocabulary will help him in future forum postings. 

Ok I just got back from my second office (a peaceful deer stand) and didn't realize all my life I had been speaking a different language than most folks that post on fourums. I have a 4 year degree in pastoral theology and preach 2 sermons every Sunday and have 2 bible studies every Tues and Thurs and most folks seem to understand me just fine so let me break this down for you. This is not my OP its how I feel take or leave it your choice.

When I start to develop a sermon or a sermon series it starts months ahead of time, I do all the research, study all the relevant scriptures and start to write when i'm done i'm not really done I continue to look over it, I make adjustments to it and then I do it again. The week I preach it I study it every day continuing to dot every i and cross every t until it is the best I can make it. Why? Two reasons 1.) The Lord gave me his best I should give Him mine. 2.) I love my congregation enough to give them my best they deserve it plane and simple. And to all those who like the constant updating. Why? Shouldn't you want the best up front when you buy it not 2 or three months later. That to me seems to be a real issue in america today. Just accept mediocrity because that's what your getting for a few months. 

I'm no computer genius and it is a very extensive program, I like it and will most likely upgrade to 7 if or when it occurs, but the constant updating to me seems to be an outward sign of an inward problem and that seem to be mediocrity. Faith Life should not strive to be like worldly company's as one poster has said. We are Christians we are to be in the world not of it and a Christian company should not act like a worldly company. I'm not saying they are, but you can't deny the fact that dollars must had something to do with it. 

I one am one who could have waited a few months for an excellent product out of the box per say than to have gotten a mediocre product that will take months to make an excellent one.

Still a logos fan and user, but its time we started demanding a better product out the gate.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 3:15 PM

Lee:
Agree that this thread should be closed.

I haven't read most of this thread, to be honest. As I said earlier, some people don't know the difference between having a disagreement (even a strong one) and being disagreeable. Perhaps you should think about that. How does name calling help anyone? 

Lee:
This is fanboyism in action.

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Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 3:43 PM

I take exception to your characterization. I challenge you to read everything and ascertain the context. Nuff said.

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Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 4:01 PM

Bryan,

I have been a Logos user for many years and one thing in particular I have noticed about them is that they develop for the cutting edge of computer technology at the time of release. The downside is that over the years that cutting edge requires people to update their computers or hard drives to make everything work more quickly at that time. eventually people update their computers and speed issues becomes less important.

I believe the problem you are encountering is that Logos as a company never really finishes anything, there is constant improvements being made to tagging which requires downloads and indexing. or new features come out in an incremental update that requires redoing certain books so that they can work with the new features. This all is a good thing I believe!

I for one appreciate the constant updating and refinement that Logos does because I don't want to wait one or two years for a major release to update the program or book tagging as many other software companies do. But your mileage may vary.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 4:30 PM

Bryan Strickland:

MJ. Smith:
 I agree although moving him towards standard vocabulary will help him in future forum postings. 

Ok I just got back from my second office (a peaceful deer stand) and didn't realize all my life I had been speaking a different language than most folks that post on fourums

My apologies - I didn't go back and see what your OP said ... I merely assumed that if the person I responded to said that vocabulary was an issue, it was. Given how much I hate people making inappropriate assumptions ...Embarrassed

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James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Nov 13 2014 5:58 PM

I had to restart my computer because my net went down when no one else has theirs down(it does that so I have to restart)and it went into update mode. Now my computer from time to time updates and if you have ever experience a Windows 8 or 8.1 update it can get annoying because it takes a while to update but my machine seems to run nice. I don't run into memory problems with Firefox and everything seems to run smooth so as much as it annoys me when it gets updated as long as it makes my computer run smooth than I'm happy.

So if these updates can make Logos run smooth I don't see a reason to complain regardless on how many times it gets updated. I rather have software that runs smooth than software that doesn't run smooth because I didn't update it.

JMHO.

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