Be Honest - Would you buy again?

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This post has 68 Replies | 4 Followers

Posts 18
Christopher Guest | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jan 14 2010 7:20 AM

I've hesitated over the past few weeks on buying Logos before the sale period expires (having already rejected buying Accordance), and have routinely read this forum for users' experience on the Mac version.

Accordance appears to be more designed for the 'scholar', while the Logos Bible Study package seems appropriately designed for a lay-person such as myself - and appears to be a more cost-effective package (with standard features that you have to pay extra for elsewhere).

However, I have to say that the strong impression is created in reading this forum that despite the availability of a 25% discount I should also reject buying Logos at this time (even though I could run it via VirtualBox/Windows 7 Pro).

If this were an Adobe product (for example) there would be widespread outrage at the 'jam tomorrow' promises of better functionality within the next six months.

Therefore, given the amount of 'friendly dissent' on this forum, given the chance would you really buy Logos 4 Mac today, and the reasons why?

My Mac can go all the way to OS XI

www.bournvillechurch.co.uk

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 7:35 AM

In a heartbeat and I can prove that. Instead of cutting in running, yesterday I doubled my investment in Logos software. That additional money would have more than set me up with Accordance, but I believe that my long term goals are much better served by L4 (both Win and Mac).

 

Do I find the Mac software useful right now? Nope, but I knew what an alpha was when I bought it. Everything I am doing and learning now will be applicable to L4Mac in a few short months. So, I get in on the ground floor, I get to influence the design/changes of the software and I get arguably one of the best study systems on the market for any platform.

 

 

 

Posts 18651
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 8:02 AM

Hey, are you the Christopher Guest? Smile

Posts 299
Robert Mullen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 8:10 AM

Yep. So much so I have upgraded twice to take advantage of the deals. The Mac app is only useful for reading and experimentation right now but I have no hesitations about doing my proper study in Win 7 on Parallels. If one were not prepared to do that I imagine they would reach a different conclusion at this point in time. I went through the first Mac alpha and beta and know a finished (but very underwhelming) product came from it so I have faith the current alpha will reach its goal. My faith has eyes though and with those eyes I see the progress from mere curiosity (A2) to somewhat usable (A8 IMO) to the current A11 which is beginning to flesh out features pretty well even if it is still pretty buggy. I see where this is going. I wish it were going faster but I understand the reality of software development and of running a business.

Bottom line: I would have no problem whatsoever recommending purchase for a Mac user that is OK running in a Windows VM for a little while. If they insisted on pure Mac technology it would depend on their expectations and tech savvy.

Posts 41
MajorCedar | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 8:57 AM

No, I would not buy again.  Of course I can still use Logos 3 for the MAC (the broken and unfixed version that seemingly will stay that way - Angry) as well as its counterpart in Windows.  As for Logos 4, I'm sure it will be a good product but it is not there yet - far from it!!!!!  You will be frustrated; it will be slow, constantly downloading updates and indexing (which gives us a betters sense of the meaning of the Jewish idiom, 'when the Messiah comes' Logos will be done indexing).  (As for the virtual machines - and it does not matter which - the program will require lots of patience!!)  Save your dollars and cents (and sense!).  In fact, you might want to check out BibleWorks, especially if you want access to language resources regarding the text.  As for the rest of the stuff in Logos, you will be frustrated with the lack of efficient functionality of all the 'other' resources you won't have in BibleWorks but at least it works.

Don't hear me dogging the Logos community.  I like the products, forums, support, etc., (with a few exceptions) and appreciate the hard work of everyone involved.  But this is my honest opinion.  The fact remains that we've spent a sum of money and don't have a good product.  If Logos would give me my money back, I'd ask for a refund.  

With glass raised, "Cheers!"

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Mike Binks | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 9:04 AM

As a Mac only user I have to make do with the programme as it is.

As it is I personally find it useable for most of what I want to do in sermon preparation.

Yes it does misbehave in a way that programs shouldn't  but that is Alpha software for you.

Still beats looking up all those cross references in the books on the shelf.

Hope this helps

Mike

Posts 4
Wilder Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 9:21 AM

In response to my earlier post, Bob at Logos indicated that it was clear that I had not walked down their hallways to see all the work being done on the Mac version.  He went on to say that their client base was only 10% Mac.  I tell you what, if 10% of the client base of Logos is Mac with all the "less than perfect results"  they have offered, I then wonder what the 10% Mac would go up to if we had a very well done result.

I would buy the system again, as I did a couple of months ago.  But I am one of those accused of being on the "Bleeding edge of technology" for many years.  I can tell you, it is often not much fun.

The good folks at Logos need to understand the difference in good intentions and actual good results.

Posts 13
Dustin Bennett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 10:00 AM

I've been a Logos user since '04 and I can honestly say, yes, I would buy it again!

Right now I continue to use the older version of the Mac software for sermon writing since L4Mac isn't a finished work.

I think it comes down to perspective.  For example, I don't view L4Mac as a done deal.  I purchased it with the idea of having a voice in the development of it.  One day (hopefully soon) it will be a complete work.  So I guess I more or less think of it as paying for the opporotunity to speak into the ongoing and continued development of L4Mac rather than paying for a finished product that I've had zero voice in.  And, once the product is finished/complete, I won't have to pay :)

So think of it as an open process that you get to have a voice in.  To me, I think of it as a privilege.

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 11:14 AM

Hi Christopher, great question and I am glad you asked. For me, the answer is YES.

And although Alpha testing can be a challange, let me also suggest there is a benefit... you will learn the program better than anyone else. Why? Because you will test out each new feature as it is added in so you wont get overwhelmed with everything at once. In a very real sense, you will ge to grow with Logos for Mac as the program grows. It would be great to have you on board and I hope to hear more from you in the coming days. God bless.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 300
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 11:32 AM

If I were starting out as a mac user I am not sure that I would purchase it again.  The problem is that I really don't see another choice.  I came over from the windows side so I already had quite a few dollars invested in Logos as a Gold User.  I use Logos more than anything else on my computer as a pastor, it is the first and last place that I look for study for a sermon.  If I did not use all the books that I have access to through the Logos system I might rethink my decision but I use so many things that I don't know where to get them I am not going anywhere.  Of course you need to take into consideration that the mac user will never be a priority for Logos.  They are working hard on the mac program but their resources are always going to be geared towards a windows platform, unless the mac takes over the market and they have as many mac users as windows users.  Thats just the nature of the business.  

Posts 18
Christopher Guest | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 11:34 AM

Rosie Perera:

Hey, are you the Christopher Guest? Smile

There's more than one John Smith in the world. Cool

 

My Mac can go all the way to OS XI

www.bournvillechurch.co.uk

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 11:44 AM

John, I am not sure how you substantiate your assertion that the Mac user will "never be a priority for Logos", but I disagree with your conclusion and let me say why.

First, Logos has designed the ENTIRE Logos 4 platform to work with both PC and Mac. They put a lot of effort into making sure the core functionality and base code for Windows and mac is the exact same.

Second, this choice of dual platform code means that the Mac and PC versions share every single feature in common. Every tool, every option, and every book on the windowsd L4 is right now on the Mac platform. the only step left is to design the User Interface so we can access those tools.

Third, Logos is right now hiring more Mac developers. You can see the job posting on the website.

Fourth, Logos is also on iPhone (a Mac product) and what this demonstrates is that they are committed to making Logos available on mutliple platoforms for users who have a diversity of needs.

So from the way I see it, the Mac user is a big priority to Logos and they have invested hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars to back it up. You are free to disagree brother and maybe you use a different criteria to evaluate "priority", but I thought it might be helpful to share an opposing viewpoint. Blessings.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 11:47 AM

JohnGraves:
They are working hard on the mac program but their resources are always going to be geared towards a windows platform, unless the mac takes over the market and they have as many mac users as windows users

I understand (and agree with your logic), but the last report we had was that the Mac developers now out number the Windows developers on this project and the looking for more. Personally I am a big Mac fan, but I like the fact that I will be able to use Logos regardless of which OS (Mac/WIn) I use.

 

 

Posts 20
Karen Iveson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 12:13 PM

YES!!!!!!!  Without a moments hesitation.  Even in it's current Alpha phase I still get a lot out of it and it beats trying to find a place in my 2 bedroom 1 story house for 900+ books AND THEN trying to search through all those books while preparing for bible study!  Having all those books on my laptop is worth more than I paid for Logos!

So thank you to Logos for working so hard!

God bless,

Karen

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 12:40 PM

Christopher Guest:
given the chance would you really buy Logos 4 Mac today, and the reasons why?

Let's see, this is the tenth response to your query. So far, you have had 1 ambivalent answer, 2 negatives, and 6 definite positives. You can now make that 7 very positive responses out of 10. That is a fair percentage in anyone's book.

With a single purchase, I have several options: 1) I can still use Mac 1.2.2 if I choose. Several people on these forums are able to use that version effectively. In fact, they rebuked me for saying that I was disappointed. It all depends upon what you want to accomplish with it. 2) You can use the Windows version with Fusion or Parallels or even (shudder) a dedicated Windows machine. I know that some have complained that this solution does not work well, but the fact is that the overwhelming majority of those using Parallels or Fusion are getting very satisfactory results. Finally 3) I can participate in the development of L4 Mac in a way that I will probably never have an opportunity to do again.

Don't let a handful of nay-sayers scare you into making an unwise decision. the current pricing is fantastic and is unlikely to be repeated.

Posts 45
WAM Project | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 1:05 PM

Christopher Guest:

Therefore, given the amount of 'friendly dissent' on this forum, given the chance would you really buy Logos 4 Mac today, and the reasons why?

In a heartbeat!! Matter of fact I jumped in on one of the lower base packages and after a few days of getting past the indexing and digging into the product I am upgrading. This product is light years ahead of accordance. While taking the best features of accordance and make them even better...

 

The best part is for the time being you can run it under fusion or parallels untill ALL the features are implemented. But I find myself running the Mac version side by side the windows version on the same machine... WIndows for the sepciality features mac version because I LIKE MAC LOOK AND FEEL...

 

They have done an awesome job!!!!

Posts 300
John Graves | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 1:26 PM

Joe Miller:
John, I am not sure how you substantiate your assertion that the Mac user will "never be a priority for Logos", but I disagree with your conclusion and let me say why.

First, Logos has designed the ENTIRE Logos 4 platform to work with both PC and Mac. They put a lot of effort into making sure the core functionality and base code for Windows and mac is the exact same.

Second, this choice of dual platform code means that the Mac and PC versions share every single feature in common. Every tool, every option, and every book on the windowsd L4 is right now on the Mac platform. the only step left is to design the User Interface so we can access those tools.

Third, Logos is right now hiring more Mac developers. You can see the job posting on the website.

Fourth, Logos is also on iPhone (a Mac product) and what this demonstrates is that they are committed to making Logos available on mutliple platoforms for users who have a diversity of needs.

So from the way I see it, the Mac user is a big priority to Logos and they have invested hundreds and hundreds of thousands of dollars to back it up. You are free to disagree brother and maybe you use a different criteria to evaluate "priority", but I thought it might be helpful to share an opposing viewpoint. Blessings.

I guess I should have said first priority.  My post was not meant to reflect negatively on Logos.  But they did put out the windows version before the mac version.  In fact we are by the estimates I have seen still six months away from a beta on the mac side.  It seems the best I can tell, the reason they gave was that it is better to get the version more people will use out first. Which means that windows users are the priority.  At least it appears that way, windows users have a working Logos 4 program, mac users are waiting.  I understand why this is and fully except it.  That doesn't mean that they are not also committed to the mac platform as I firmly believe they are. I just think that someone considering Logos 4 mac should know what they are getting into.  

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 2:08 PM

JohnGraves:
I guess I should have said first priority.  My post was not meant to reflect negatively on Logos.
It's all good my friend.  You are always welcome to express your view here brother.  Respectful and honest disagreement is healthy and you have been both your expressing your views. :-)

JohnGraves:
But they did put out the windows version before the mac version.
True, and I think it was the right business decision AND, in my opinion, the right decision for the best software development process.  If you will indulge me, I will tell you why.

1. The Windows version represents a much larger market share.  We all know that is a fact.  Therefore, sales of L4win can be used to subsidize the L4mac development.  That is smart business decision making sure you can pay your bills before they come due :-)

2. While it is true the L4win version was released first, that fact is also a bit misleading.  Why do I say that?  Because the Logos business model for the future is multi-platoform Bible software.  So yes, L4win came first, but the Mac development was latent in the base code.  So every bit of code being worked on right now in the current Windows beta cycle, is already being used and tested on the Mac side (thus one of the glitches with A10 to 10a to 11).   My point is, that the development from day one has, to some degree, been supportive of the Mac development--even though the interface for the Mac is still lagging. These first two points lead to the third observation.

3. I was a Beta tester for L4win and asked back in October '09 about the Mac because I was hoping to see something soon.  I was one of the people asking Logos to release the Alpha for testing so our Mac community would not get discouraged that nothing was coming for us AND I am so glad they allowed us to be a part of this development cycle which is often kept secret from users.  I mention this history because based on my experience with the L4win Beta, I believe it was more cost effective to delay the Mac UI development.  Why?  Let's pretend that Logos said, "we are going to release both L4win and L4mac at the exact same time!"  What is the consequence of that decision? I think it would be negative for Logos and therefore negative for the future of this software.  Look at this way.  As we, the beta testers, worked with Logos, there were a LOT of changes Logos made based on our feedback.  Now imagine how expensive it would be to pay twice every time Logos wanted to make a change in the UI or base code.  Imagine if, based on user feedback, Logos wanted to add a whole new feature and then they would have had to pay the Windows team to change things and then pay the Mac team to make the same exact changes.  From my perspective, simultaneous development of both platforms would have driven the costs up with no added value or benefit to the program quality.  Instead of this approach, Logos decided upon a shared Base Code with a lagging UI development.  Letting the Mac UI lag, meant that all the user input during L4win development from Mac users, like me, ultimately benefited the Mac base code and paved the way for the coming UI.

Sadly, this does make us a bit behind for us, but again I don't think this should be construed to mean that the Mac community is of lower priority to Logos nor should it be taken as a slight toward the potential they see in the Mac market for Logos.  IMHO, it is just a practical business and development decision that any good business or President would make. 

Anyway, I am sure some will disagree and I don't really want to argue with anyone about it... just share my opinion that may be helpful to some in seeing that the glass is really Half-Full and not Half-Empty.

Blessings. :-)

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 92
Felipe Chamy | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 2:29 PM

My answer is also YES... and I´m thinking of upgrading my base package as soon as I can... 

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 14 2010 2:50 PM

Joe Miller:
I think it was the right business decision AND, in my opinion, the right decision for the best software development process.  If you will indulge me, I will tell you why.

Superb summary, Joe. Thank you.

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