Indexing Again?

[:O] if its gonna take a day (as it currently is, and do/redo stage 3/4 each time) its gonna be a real pain updating...

I have just added some new resources to my library...

1.  There is no indication in the current Beta how we will be able to install new resources into Logos 4.0 without first installing them into Logos 3.0. Any hints on what the future holds here.

2. After adding these books to Logos 3.0, it takes 10 minutes for the Logos 4.0 home page to open on both my notebook and netbook while the ominous "Preparing your library... This may take a very long time." message appears. I assume that part of this process involves transferring the resources to the Logos 4.0 directory - is this correct? Will the startup time be reduced when we can install these items directly into the Logos 4.0 directory?

3. Are updated resources downloaded at this time? I'm concerned about the downloading of resources without any indication.... As others have noted elsewhere, in Australia we have capped plans for internet access. I would much prefer that all downloads occurred during off-peak (this is how I have set up every other program). 

4. Re-indexing then begins. The whole idea of pausing reindexing seems pointless given that the Logos 4.0 indexing program seems to consume an inordinate amount of memory whether it is indexing or not.

5. I'm glad that I'm able to use the old index file and have access to my new files when the program eventually starts. It appears that they can be instantly prioritised and are then accessible from the right-click context menu for both words and bible references.

6. Indexing it all from scratch for a day and a half everytime I add a resource is motivation to purchase nothing. Is it not possible to allow manual indexing so that we have a choice whether to index the library or not. That way, I could index my library after adding the much awaited NICOT in mid october but not after adding one small book.

7. Will we be forced to index after every updated resource - the swedish bibles for Logos 4.0? Will this be forced on us.... even for minor updates....

I agree to user control. There are times I am sitting at Barnes & Noble having my green tea. I set up my laptop and logon to the web via my tethered cell phone to check emails and fire up Logos for sermon writing, study and lesson preps .... i don't want usage charges for large downloads or downloads automatically starting up or even auto syncing while using my phone as modem.

Please address this... guess i will only use 3.0 while at barnes & noble and tethered

Jim

With logos (v4) shutdown, the program was still indexing as indicated with the logos icon in the notification tray (lower right).  A right mouse click on the icon gave me the option to pause the indexing for four hours.  After pausing, my computer regained it's normal speed.  I can live with this feature - as long as I can have control over when the indexing occurs.

I really have to say that I don't know what all this fuss about indexing is all about.  Yes it does slow things down a little but things hardly grind to a halt as some are implying.  There was an update this morning that took only a few minutes to load and now it's indexing the entire library of over 4000 resources again.  The program is still usable, albeit a little slower (searches are perhaps 5 seconds compared to 3 normally, but searches are still way,  way faster than in Logos 3.  And while other programs are a little slower, they are still far better than some computers I've used in the past.

Overnight, my netbook finally completed re-indexing my library. All up it took 19hrs 23mins - of which 15.5hrs was indexing and the rest the final compacting of the index. While this was happening, the only program that was running was an occasional use of notepad, so as to read the indexing log. I notd that many of the original language items (dictionaries, etc.) took much more time as do large technical commentaries (of which I have most).

Issues:

1. Strangely, on my netbook, it would go for great lengths of time without changing the indexing count. This does not occur on my notebook. This gives the semblance that the program has "hung" - when in fact it is churning away in the background, indexing hundreds of books.
2. The final message related to the time that the computer is compacting the index ought be changed. Currently it reads "Logos Bible Software is indexing your library". This confused me the first couple of times that my netbook ran the indexing process - as it is the same message as at the start. Perhaps: "Your index is being compacted. Please be very very very patient"

Sadly, my notebook did not have the same success with indexing. Microsoft forced an update overnight which cause a restart of my computer. I have my notebook set to automatically install windows updates. My guess is that this occurred towards the very end of the indexing or during the compacting of the index.

Result: it's all starting up again....... Aaaarggh!

As far as indexing, what happens with the laptop I use with v.3 on it that I never take online because I have not set it up to go online but use a memory stick to update it with licenses and new resources.  Will it index without being online?  But, I do not intend to beta test with that computer just wondering about its future or not.  (I still haven't received my v.4 dvd.  )

DamianMcGrath said:

What surprises me is that the indexer does not pick up where it left off. 

Yes, it should be done something about whole thing of indexing. Like Google Desktop Search. It just index whenever your computer is available. If you shut down... next time it continues.

Alex Scott said:

I really have to say that I don't know what all this fuss about indexing is all about.  Yes it does slow things down a little but things hardly grind to a halt as some are implying.  There was an update this morning that took only a few minutes to load and now it's indexing the entire library of over 4000 resources again.  The program is still usable, albeit a little slower (searches are perhaps 5 seconds compared to 3 normally, but searches are still way,  way faster than in Logos 3.  And while other programs are a little slower, they are still far better than some computers I've used in the past.

For me, and I think for some others its no so much about grinding to a halt but control over when it happens , and in terms of indexing the overall length of time it takes to complete.

I am a one computer person so computing in the cloud is not something relevant to me my data is firmly on my desktop, but for someone who is in the cloud for instance, on the road with a netbook say, they may not want a large download to kick off automatically,  due to the cost.  Others may have plans with off-peak times that allow them to download more during that time or at cheaper cost.  For me I am not only a one computer person but a one computer household.  It is difficult to say to the other household members sorry but your off the computer for the next 36 hours or longer until I finish doing something (but I can't tell you what or why during the beta phase) so your going to have to wait to check your e-mails..... I am sure others can come up with other scenarios... and bottom line is Logos may develop with certain specs in mind but we can't all actually afford to keep up to those specs, particularly outside US (and I am not suggesting they drop their game to the LCD -that would be silly to do so)

Another point is Windows Updates and forced restarts...we are told Logos 4 is being developed with the lower end user in mind rather than the power user - fair enough as long as the power user does not have their hands tied behind their backs. Now the lower end user in paricular is going to have things like automatic updates setup and may not know how to tinker with this and be savvy enough to see Logos is indexing so it would be a good move to turn off automatic updates until indexing completes - the result could be a forced restart that at the moment seem to cause re-indexign to start all over again.

I had an update when I started up my laptop today.  The installation and indexing of the entire 4524 resource llibrary took less than 8 hours during which time I was able to use the program (except perhaps for the first few minutes while it downloaded the update), as well as my other programs.  While they were slightly slower than usual, it was hardly enough to notice this time.  In other words, the update and reindexing took place in a time frame that could be completed overnight if necessary.  For the price of searches that for the most past take only a few seconds, I think it's well worth it, for me at least.

For me I never really had thought search speed was that big an issue in 3.0 so am not go WOW when it comes to search speed in 4.0, particular when indexing is put into the equation.  I guess we each just value different things and that does make any position any more right than the next.  Utimately Logos has to make a business deciison and run with that.  I'm not going not use 4.0 because of indexing but I hope there is a lot of optimization to come before the final release.

yeah I agree, if the indexer kept a track of where it was by writing the last resource id it finished indexing to a .cfg file, it should be able to resume at point it was terminated by the system.

Kevin A. Purcell said:

While I'm hoping that the final version indexes much faster, can anyone give me an example of a piece of software they have purchased that required you to install and then leave it alone for 8 hours to make it usable? Not even Windows 7 or Vista for that matter, required that much time for me to be able to use it.

My hope is this is just a beta problem.

I can't think of any Kevin, and particularly one that requires it everytime you add a new resource to the the mix.  Being able to search an entire library of 2000, 4000, or even 8000 resources in a blink is only the first part of the equation... you then need to be able to wade through and process those results.  I haven't looked that much at search yet as I've been trying to work out how to naviage the program first but can you know discard individul results that you determine not relevant and can you save those 'edited' search results to come back to them a later date.... yes it might be quick to generate the results but not so quick to re-eliminate the 4,000 hits you've already determine are not relevant to what you are trying to achieve with the search......so in that situation saving the results does seem important.

Bob Pritchett said:

Any desktop searching engine? :-)

 

I'll conceed on that one but never though of them because I never found them of any value and turn them off pretty quickly, as they just seem to hog system resources. I seem to get better results look for a file on my hard drive using standrd windows search function... the indexer never seems to find the file.

If you're concerned about interuptions from Microsoft updates, why not change it to notification of updates instead of automatic install.  That's what I use.  They notify you with a shield on the task bar and then you choose the time to download and install them.  You also get the option to choose if you want all the updates too.

Thanks for the reply Bob.

Makes a lot of sense.

Nigel

Bob Pritchett said:

But if you want to put us up against Google, I'm ready. To make it fair though, you've got to ask them to index the Internet on your machine or else give us 1,000 machines to store everything in memory. :-)

I've always wondered how they did it. Thanks for the explanation. though I don't agree with every book you offer, Google would loose hands down at their ability to deliver the truth :-)

If you did want to do some over the web results you could have it as a separate search, sort of like your Library search in 3.0. That would give the same benefits we gained from being able to search locked books in 3.0 without bogging down our computers.

I in no way want you to compete with Google. I would hate to know what you would have to charge for books then!

The amount of raw processing power is certainly important, but let's not also forget that your algorithms and data structures make an even bigger difference, especially as the volume of data increases. You've clearly picked algorithms and data structures that give excellent searching capability but - dare I say it - have a horrible insertion cost at the moment!

By the way, re the 1000 machines, I think you've have to give us a thousand machines each as part of our book purchases, not us give them to you!

Nigel