1 step forward, 2 steps back

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Posts 14
Richard Maguire | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 9:00 AM

So Bradley - what do you suggest for those of us who use this on very capable Mac platforms who are ones experiencing distracting performance issues?

Posts 5
Armen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 10:17 AM

"Logos is one of the most poorly written programs one can buy and load unto a Mac."

So I read on this pre-Logos 6 thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/80080/560540.aspx

It bothers me that I might potentially spend hundreds of pounds on a system not designed to work anywhere near optimally on a Mac. Some things I read make me think Logos for Mac needs rewritten from the ground up.

I don't see how the company can be happy knowing that one of their chief competitors is constantly referred to as faster. That just makes it clear that faster Bible software on a Mac can be done, and when things get to the scale of Logos you imagine it should be done.

Things shouldn't be sluggish with an SSD, 8GB of RAM and a decent processor.

Is it asking too much to expect Logos to function as smoothly as its competitor?

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 11:13 AM

Dear Bradley: Its not machine specific, its systemic . Every other mainstream program written for OS X ,used on macs runs great- people have been over this with Logos, literally hundreds of times.
Of course, there are going to be specific issues that come up on certain machines/installs- software does that- it happens.
Logos isn't written for OS X and every single Logos employee knows this- its just never going to run as well on a mac as programs written for OS X .

To all of us Mac users: Logos is never, ever going to run like a native OS X program- its never, ever going to happen. The owner of Logos has made this plain, again- over and over. Logos is written for Windows, they use an interface to make it work on a mac, it has never been written for OS X and it not ever going to be, that would be an expensive undertaking. My understanding is: They try to write once and then distribute.
Financially- this makes sense.

O think we just have to understand its not going to run on Macs as if written for Macs and, be glad for what we have.

We get what we get. 
We are the second hand citizens of Logos.
We matter, financially,  but not as much as the windows folk and certainly not enough for Logos to write code for our machines.

Personally just use Logos as a library and do my actual work on software written for OS X, software that flies on speed and acts like OS X softeware.

Its the only solution I could find in order to have the resources i need and, the speed to do the heavy lifting i need.

Logos is Logos, Accordance is Accordance.

Logos made a programming/code decision to support OS X , but not write code for it.

Its going to be slow ( comparatively ), its going to be clunky- we all know this and Bradley cannot fix this for us.

It is, what it is.

Im grateful for 64 bit, the progress that has been made, some of the features/tools and the incredible resources ( cannot get those anywhere else).

Grace and Peace. 

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 11:17 AM

Greatful for change to 64 bit code.
Improvement have been made and, will likely continue , just cannot run as native code does because it isn't native code for our world.

Posts 205
Jeffrey S. Robison | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 3:17 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Jeffrey, I'm trying to understand your concern. Are you experiencing any performance problems on your Mac, or are you just concerned that other forum users are reporting them?

Bradley,

I have had issues since before the server debacle. It is beach balling. Apparently it writes wrong folder permissions on the Logos4 library folder which apparently causes crashes with personal books. When you ask about your crash issue, you are told to post your log files. When you turn on logging L6 crashes on startup so it only produces a console log file which points to the wrong folder permissions. I have done a complete removal of L6 and the clean install twice which is a 26.8 GIGABYTE download for me. The parity promise has been made... and made... and made... $16000+ in resources and three paid upgrades later, as a Mac user I am told in the forums to get over it, it is not going to happen. I cannot even report on my crashes because it won't start if you want a log. I am supposedly using a stable release, Logos Bible Software 6.0a (6.0.1.0032). Faithlife broke something in L6 on this last update. I have reported my issues and you are the first Faithlifer to respond. If you check my posts you will see that I have asked for help... in the forums... where I am told to go for support. And there has been none. I abandoned my large Accordance library for Logos. I do not want to go back. I simply want the promise fulfilled. I want a stable product where the features I have paid for work as promised and advertised. I have used Beta Logos releases on Developer releases of OS X and have never complained about crashes on that machine. I expect those. But when it does not function on my main machine... I have issues. I have never said, "Logos is slow," or "Logos is sluggish." I have a huge library and it takes a few seconds to search, no big deal. When an advertised feature crashes only on Mac. I start remembering the unkept promises after the initial announcement (a couple of years) and Logos' first foray into OS X (disaster) and I am worried that L6 is going that way. What can you say that will ease that concern?

I would be glad to provide logs for my crashes if you can tell me how to get them... see my previous posts with logs within the last week.

Posts 8227
LogosEmployee

Jeffrey S. Robison:
I would be glad to provide logs for my crashes if you can tell me how to get them

Did you set the permissions on the relevant folders as instructed in https://community.logos.com/forums/p/96591/667251.aspx#667251?

My understanding is once that is done, logging should work.

Jeffrey S. Robison:
Apparently it writes wrong folder permissions on the Logos4 library folder which apparently causes crashes with personal books.

AFAIK, Logos contains no code to change permissions. (Which is why it crashes when they're wrong, instead of fixing them. We could consider adding this as a future enhancement.)

Jeffrey S. Robison:
When an advertised feature crashes only on Mac. I start remembering the unkept promises after the initial announcement (a couple of years) and Logos' first foray into OS X (disaster) and I am worried that L6 is going that way. What can you say that will ease that concern?

We have had (and will continue to have) a number of Mac-only crashes and a number of Windows-only crashes. This is just the nature of cross-platform development; the operating systems function differently and sometimes a problem only manifests on one OS. We don't consider this a parity issue, just a regular old "bug".

I believe our track record is to fix crashes as soon as practical, no matter which platform they're occurring on. https://wiki.logos.com/Logos_6.0a lists 12 fixed crashes and over 50 other fixed bugs. If 6.0a introduced this problem, that's an unfortunate regression, and I'm sorry you're running into it, but I'm hopeful that once we get log files, we can diagnose it and get a fix out quickly.

I'm on vacation today and out of the office next week but I'll ask a senior Mac developer to help you with this problem. (Sorry, I don't know his schedule to say for sure if he's available on Monday or not.)

Posts 28983
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 3:49 PM

Armen:

"Logos is one of the most poorly written programs one can buy and load unto a Mac."

So I read on this pre-Logos 6 thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/80080/560540.aspx

I'm not sure of the value of quoting an irate user who didn't back up his assertion nor show that he had credentials to make an informed assertion. I suspect this is hyperbole.

I am not a Mac user but it is my understanding that the Mac application has been making steady progress towards stability and parity. However, one element that is necessary to keep this progress moving forward is to have Mac users carefully document and provide logs for the problems that exist so that Logos can be reasonably expected to fix them.

Reports like "X is faster" or "Logos is sluggish" need to include specifics as to the task being preformed, the actual response time and the expected response time. It is easy to make something fast by decreasing functionality and slow by increasing it. What has to be achieved is a balanced satisfactory to most users. I find that on the PC side, I am more tolerant of some sluggishness that bothers others ... my expectations are lower, my understanding regarding what I can do to make it appear faster (not be faster ... just create the illusion by split the time up into chunks, etc.) is highest and my deadlines looser.

So please be part of the solution and post concrete information that Logos developers can work with. And when you compare Logos to other Bible software, please be sure that the comparison is fair - that they are doing the same work. If they aren't what you may want is Logos to split functions in a different way; if they are what you want is Logos to optimize code.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 205
Jeffrey S. Robison | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 3:59 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
Did you set the permissions on the relevant folders as instructed in https://community.logos.com/forums/p/96591/667251.aspx#667251?

I was told to set the L4 folder to 755 with no instruction about subfolders and then the description was 644 and not 755.

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
AFAIK, Logos contains no code to change permissions.

I did not change the permissions. I simply installed L6 and started it. I do not monkey with library files except for scripts that I write... not for Logos.

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
I'm on vacation today and out of the office next week but I'll ask a senior Mac developer to help you with this problem. (Sorry, I don't know his schedule to say for sure if he's available on Monday or not.)

Thank you for your answer, especially on your time off. I posted my crash question in multiple places because no one responded. Then I posted what you responded to in three places because in hope that someone would respond. With L5 there was almost no difference between Win and Mac for me. I have not gotten to really put L6 through the paces yet. I can wait for the Mac dev. I used an older machine with L5 to write this week's sermons so I am good through Sunday.

Posts 757
Fr. Charles R. Matheny | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 4:26 PM

Dear Mj: It wasn't hyperbole. Its factual that Logos does not behave as an OS X program- it cannot, its not written for OS X .

Feature parity should exist , features should all work correctly, but Logos cannot function at the same level in OS X as a program written for OS X .

There are literally hundreds of posts on this other then mine.

That said: Jeffery, my best luck has been with a phone call to tech support, they do a good job of sorting out individual issues and yours does not sound normal.
They do a screen share and can usually resolve an issue. 
There is no cost, usually not a long, strained wait, its goos support.

Posts 5285
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 4:52 PM

This thread feels like a no win situation for Faithlife. They poorly choose to use Mono which caused years of complaints. Now they have switched over to a Apple based system, they get flack it is not Apple enough. Yes there was most certainly a bad implementation of the download system but they have fixed it and are using an actual Apple module to do the downloading. I appreciate the disappointment and frustrations that people are stating, some very real. And while Logos may not feel exactly like a mac application. Faithlife has done a fair job making it feel very mac in it's interface. This is no program running a horrible windows version through an emulator shell like Wordsearch. In my minds eye it appears Logos is moving in the right direction program wise. I do not like the more web dependant features because my slower internet means those features are going to be sluggish for me. (I did report that the right click seemed sluggish to me and I suspected part might be internet based, i just started up offline and found that it was a bit faster). I am not going to say Logos is an ideal program, but I for one find it works well for me.

-Dan

Posts 205
Jeffrey S. Robison | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 5:24 PM

Dan Francis:
This thread feels like a no win situation for Faithlife.

My participation was not intended to be that for Faithlife.

Posts 10731
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 7:02 PM

Dan Francis:
This thread feels like a no win situation for Faithlife.

I do not believe that Jeffrey started this thread with any malicious intent. He simply wanted resolution to his problems. However, there are some participants in these forums who will not miss an opportunity to trash Logos/FaithLife. I was one of the first 50k Mac owners way back in 1984, so I have some experience in using Mac applications. To me, the Mac-like application is largely a myth that makes a convenient means of criticizing Logos. I tried to bite my digital tongue and stay out of this discussion, but I am tired of hearing the same old tired refrain. I would rather hear something constructive.

Posts 205
Jeffrey S. Robison | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 7:10 PM

Jack Caviness:
I do not believe that Jeffrey started this thread with any malicious intent

Thanks Jack, you are right about my intent. But I did not start this thread. I did start another. And just so you all know, got my immediate problem solved thanks to Martin Potter. I do not know what caused it. It was a folder permissions issue. I look forward to finding out what caused it. But I need to find the thread that someone else was having a problem with crashing on PB build and see if my fix will work for them.

As to the title of this thread... I got my two steps back so I guess I am ahead.

Posts 5285
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Nov 28 2014 7:44 PM

I never meant to imply Jeffery was not seeking genuine help, just that some of the complaints brought up here seem either trivial design interface or have been corrected already in current version. I do want Faithlife to make the best mac product they can and I am all for improvements.  I am very glad your one problem has already been solved. I do not want anyone stop reporting issues, but when people call Logos the worst mac program ever I scratch my head and wonder if they are using the same program i am.

-Dan

Posts 10731
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 4:38 AM

Dan Francis:
I do not want anyone stop reporting issues, but when people call Logos the worst mac program ever I scratch my head and wonder if they are using the same program i am.

Well stated. Agree completely.

Posts 824
GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 4:51 AM

Jack Caviness:

Dan Francis:
I do not want anyone stop reporting issues, but when people call Logos the worst mac program ever I scratch my head and wonder if they are using the same program i am.

Well stated. Agree completely.

Yes

I am happily using it daily for exegesis and sermon preparation, MA-level academic work (including original language work), and devotional reading, and don't recognise the program that some of the posts in these threads are referring to. I switched from using Logos on Windows just over a year ago to Mac and have not noticed a significant performance difference (a slight one at times) and have not yet found a single feature missing on the Mac that was on the Windows version. To say there is not feature parity is simply not true. There are some issues, and they need to be reported, but as MJ pointed out yesterday, there is steady progress on the Mac version, and it is being continually improved. 


Running Logos 6 Platinum and Logos Now on Surface Pro 4, 8 GB RAM, 256GB SSD, i5

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 6:42 AM

Richard Maguire:

what do you suggest for those of us who use this on very capable Mac platforms who are ones experiencing distracting performance issues?

A screen cast showing performance issues can be helpful for Faithlife developers => Slow Scrolling included:

Tom Philpot (Faithlife):

As KS4J has said, knowing which part of the app you're referring to would be helpful. Is it scrolling in resource texts, or in the Explorer Panel, or search results, or some other panel?

A screencast could also be helpful for the developers.

Please provide steps to repeat performance issues: e.g. => Scrolling: Reverse Interlinear Bible, which can be very slow at times has repeatable steps. Logos 6.0.1.0032 on OS X 10.10.1 with 4 GHz i7 and Apple 256 GB SSD has several dozen hesitations when scrolling down (from Ex 1 to Ex 10) as the reverse interlinear pane refreshes.  Scrolling up has fewer reverse interlinear pane refreshes.  Turned off interlinear at bottom; turned on in-line interlinear with surface, manuscript, and Strong's.  Using arrow keys to scroll down, noticed momentary pause at the end of chapters.  The chapter pause is more noticeable (annoying) when using a trackpad to scroll ESV with in-line interlinear.  With in-line interlinear turned off, trackpad scrolling is responsive. 

Turning on many visual filters has responsive scrolling (with in-line and reverse interlinear turned off); wiki has => https://wiki.logos.com/Extended_Tips_for_Highlighting_and_Visual_Filters#Examples_of_visual_filters  Thankful for Logos 6 Bible Text Only with many visual filters on having responsive scrolling, which is my preferred Bible setting.

Scrolling an Exegetical Guide Word by Word section while the section is being populated can be a bit challenging => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/30415/225343.aspx#225343  After Word by Word is populated, scrolling is responsive.

Personal quirk: on OS X 10.10.1 have changed General System Preference to always show scroll bars.

Lankford Oxendine:
2.  Opening books

Please elaborate what book(s) are slower to open.

Clicking "+" to open another commentary is slower on OS X 10.10.1 as the right hand list of commentary resources with the same verse takes longer to appear than Windows 7.

Dan Francis:

Michael McLane:
3.  Right click menus

I will concur this seems sluggish to me too... I just assumed it was because of new options like visual copy.

-Dan

+1 Right Click menu in Bible Resource using Logos 6.0.1.0032 being a bit sluggish on Windows 7 and OS X 10.10.1 while items are populated.

Dreaming of option to customize order in Right Click, especially Left Hand Side.

Lankford Oxendine:
4.  Highlighting text w/ Sympathetic highlighting turned on

Seems sympathetic highlighting is a second or two slower to appear on 5K display with OS X 10.10.1 (4.0 GHz i7-4790) than 1080p display for Windows 7 (2.3 GHz i7-3610QM).

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 76
Michael R. Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 10:43 AM

When I hear comments like this I wonder if we're using the same program, too, but apparently not for the same reasons. I'm not here to bash Logos either but I have almost 4,400 volumes in my Logos library and with that type of investment I expect it to work better than it does now.

I noticed a distinct difference in performance when I switched from L4 on Windows to L4 on Mac. The performance got some better on L5 but L6 is at least as bad as L4.

When Logos/FaithLife representatives say that these problems are device-specific (as one FaithLife person said either in this thread or a related one), it sounds like passing the buck to me. From my perspective it sounds like it IS application-specific rather than device-specific because my Mac works just fine.....until I open Logos. Every single app I run regularly on my Mac runs just fine.....except for Logos. Stating that fact does not make me a complainer or a basher, it makes me a customer who has made an investment and who wants to actually use the product I paid for.

But so far, not a single problem I have ever had has been resolved by searching these forums (which is why I don't usually bother). Instead I find many who agree with me and many who don't and there's much back-and-forth between the two and only thing that comes of it that those who complain are dismissed as being "complainers" and "bashers" accompanied by endless requests for logs (which I understand is necessary but have no idea how to do). I submitted logs a couple of times after a kind person showed me how to do it and that time, too, nothing came of it. It seems that those who have issues often simply give up, like I usually do. 

Posts 5285
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 11:01 AM

Here is an official place to put your concerns for improvements and your priority on this imrpovement/ problem. The forums are generally users helping users with only minimal Logos staff joining in.

-Dan

Posts 242
Lankford Oxendine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 11:45 AM

Thanks KS4J for you helpful comments concerning performance issues.  As this thread has been somewhat hijacked with talks about stability, crashes, parity, complainers, etc.,  my purpose in starting this thread was to provide feedback and hopefully encourage Logos to keeping making strides in the performance department (especially for Macs).  Once again, on my Mac, Logos 6 is generally slower in just about all interface/UI tasks than Logos 5 and reminds me of how Logos 4 performed.  I wonder if a clean install would help.  I installed Logos 6 over 5 but wonder if anyone thinks that a wipe and fresh Logos 6 install would help with the sluggishness?

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