Logos by Subscription?

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This post has 90 Replies | 13 Followers

Posts 2883
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 7:56 PM

Whyndell Grizzard:

Not interested in subscriptions at all, at any level. I want to own what I pay for. 

I agree with you100%.

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 1216
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 7:57 PM
I would like to keep my current library and always have the option to buy a product in a single transaction. That being said, a subscription model to generate new users would be fine as long as there are still options to buy a product in a single transaction. Having several price options for more content would suffice. For subscription users content should be available offline.
Posts 179
Matthew Langlois | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 8:17 PM

Tes:

Whyndell Grizzard:

Not interested in subscriptions at all, at any level. I want to own what I pay for. 

I agree with you100%.

Ditto

Posts 4753
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 9:18 PM

I understand why folks say they want to own. People want to have confidence that access isn't taken away for whatever reason. I have those same feelings, but just as much I want access to the whole enchilada. When I do a search, I want to search everything that can be searched. But the rub is I know I can't afford to buy the whole enchilada (at least not now). But, I probably could rent it.

But there's another rub. I was much more interested in a subscription $25-30K ago. I'm not so sure it makes as much sense now. But perhaps it could, depending on the structure of the offerings--some form of dynamic pricing might help. I have two potential scenarios that would make a subscription attractive. I would like to eventually get my kids using Logos, but replicating my library for each of them (what I'd like to do) is not only prohibitively expensive, it is out and out absurd that I should have to consider it. I understand why the seed of the Logos business plan included the single-user model, but at some point it is just plain stupid to say my children, even as adults, have to have their own 10-12,000 resource library when we are doing study in the same location. My kids should be able to use my library on some level. What I'd like to see is a base package requirement for individuals, but beyond that family members should get access to additional resources that are effectively owned in common. Yes, this would include some tweaking of the EULA, but I can say outright that the EULA as is has the effect of keeping me from spending additional money to get my kids their own libraries. The idea reeks of bad value. Getting a high quality, high utility library for myself for $30K, and then having to turn around and get two more for each of my kids? Seriously???

If something could be done to give my kids legitimate access to everything I own, as long as it isn't insultingly expensive, would be something that interests me.

The other scenario is that at some point in the future, I might have some assistants whom I would like to assign study projects. I would thus want to leverage my library by having others use my library to work on such assignments. If I have 6 people working for me and I want them each to be able to access ICC and AYB and NIC(OT/NT), for instance, I don't for one second think they should have to each have their own copy of each of these, or each have Hoarder's Edition, for that matter, in order to study the things I have assigned them.

If some acceptable subscription options could make these scenarios possible, I would be very interested.

Posts 352
Cynthia Tucker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 9:24 PM

Extremely good points! I'd like to get my daughter started on Logos, and since I'm a writer, could easily see needing an assistant at some point, Two thumbs up for these ideas.

David Paul:

I understand why folks say they want to own. People want to have confidence that access isn't taken away for whatever reason. I have those same feelings, but just as much I want access to the whole enchilada. When I do a search, I want to search everything that can be searched. But the rub is I know I can't afford to buy the whole enchilada (at least not now). But, I probably could rent it.

But there's another rub. I was much more interested in a subscription $25-30K ago. I'm not so sure it makes as much sense now. But perhaps it could, depending on the structure of the offerings. I have two potential scenarios that would make a subscription attractive. I would like to eventually get my kids using Logos, but replicating my library for each of them (what I'd like to do) is not only prohibitively expensive, it is out and out absurd that I should have to consider it. I understand why the seed of the Logos business plan included the single-user model, but at some point it is just plain stupid to say my children, even as adults, have to have their own 10-12,000 resource library when we are doing study in the same location. My kids should be able to use my library on some level. What I'd like to see is a base package requirement for individuals, but beyond that family members should get access to additional resources that are effectively owned in common. Yes, this would include some tweaking of the EULA, but I can say outright that the EULA as is has the effect of keeping me from spending additional money to get my kids their own libraries. The idea reeks of bad value. Getting a high quality, high utility library for myself for $30K, and then having to turn around and get two more for each of my kids? Seriously???

If something could be done to give my kids legitimate access to everything I own, as long as it isn't insultingly expensive, would be something that interests me.

The other scenario is that at some point in the future, I might have some assistants whom I would like to assign study projects. I would thus want to leverage my library by having others use my library to work on such assignments. If I have 6 people working for me and I want them each to be able to access ICC and AYB and NIC(OT/NT), for instance, I don't for one second think they should have to each have their own copy of each of these, or each have Hoarder's Edition, for that matter, in order to study the things I have assigned them.

If some acceptable subscription options could make these scenarios possible, I would be very interested.

Author of the Chronological Word Truth Life Bible Series

WordTruthLifeBible.com

Posts 787
James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 9:48 PM

David Paul:

I understand why folks say they want to own. People want to have confidence that access isn't taken away for whatever reason. I have those same feelings, but just as much I want access to the whole enchilada. When I do a search, I want to search everything that can be searched. But the rub is I know I can't afford to buy the whole enchilada (at least not now). But, I probably could rent it.

But there's another rub. I was much more interested in a subscription $25-30K ago. I'm not so sure it makes as much sense now. But perhaps it could, depending on the structure of the offerings--some form of dynamic pricing might help. I have two potential scenarios that would make a subscription attractive. I would like to eventually get my kids using Logos, but replicating my library for each of them (what I'd like to do) is not only prohibitively expensive, it is out and out absurd that I should have to consider it. I understand why the seed of the Logos business plan included the single-user model, but at some point it is just plain stupid to say my children, even as adults, have to have their own 10-12,000 resource library when we are doing study in the same location. My kids should be able to use my library on some level. What I'd like to see is a base package requirement for individuals, but beyond that family members should get access to additional resources that are effectively owned in common. Yes, this would include some tweaking of the EULA, but I can say outright that the EULA as is has the effect of keeping me from spending additional money to get my kids their own libraries. The idea reeks of bad value. Getting a high quality, high utility library for myself for $30K, and then having to turn around and get two more for each of my kids? Seriously???

If something could be done to give my kids legitimate access to everything I own, as long as it isn't insultingly expensive, would be something that interests me.

The other scenario is that at some point in the future, I might have some assistants whom I would like to assign study projects. I would thus want to leverage my library by having others use my library to work on such assignments. If I have 6 people working for me and I want them each to be able to access ICC and AYB and NIC(OT/NT), for instance, I don't for one second think they should have to each have their own copy of each of these, or each have Hoarder's Edition, for that matter, in order to study the things I have assigned them.

If some acceptable subscription options could make these scenarios possible, I would be very interested.

I agree with this. Why not share it as long as it's under one IP address. It would also be nice if you could transfer to another network for a fee. For example a new pastor who uses Logos for home just started a church and has a large library by having the Collectors Edition and extra books,etc he uses at home to transfer his collection and library to his church on a set of computers and makes that a virtual church library that church members have access too.

Posts 128
Nathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 29 2014 10:00 PM

I would be interested in a cloud based desktop subscription.  The whole indexing issue just really really REALLY irritates me, very inefficient.  Different base packages could be available.  No more indexing, no more fancy hardware requirements, no more huge downloads.  Available with the click of a tiny executable.  Massive access to resources, at a good price.  Powerful Bible software available to the masses without the hassle.  All you would need is moderately good internet service.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 4:06 AM

Nathan:

I would be interested in a cloud based desktop subscription.  The whole indexing issue just really really REALLY irritates me, very inefficient.  Different base packages could be available.  No more indexing, no more fancy hardware requirements, no more huge downloads.  Available with the click of a tiny executable.  Massive access to resources, at a good price.  Powerful Bible software available to the masses without the hassle.  All you would need is moderately good internet service.

When you start actually paying for the network, you'll quickly realize this isn't as cheap as it seems. Right now providers subsidize their networks off content and services -- the entire net neutrality debate comes down this single point. Services carry the cost of the network. When you put all the services thousands of miles away from the users, then someone must bear the cost of transporting the services.

That will be you.

And I can tell you -- networks are more expensive than "fancy hardware," and "hard drives." 

:-)

Russ

Posts 2277
Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 5:28 AM

I prefer to own my resources. I would only be interesting in moving to a subscription model if your rental prices were as competitive as, say, Netflix (which I suspect is unachievable given the 'value-added' nature of Logos resources). I wonder, however, whether Netflix-type subscription prices is more achievable with Vyrso products. 

As others have suggested, I would, perhaps, be interested in renting from Mobile Ed. This would only be attractive, however, if I get to keep the transcript (but not the media). I would want to be able to attach my notes to something that I get to keep within my library. Again, I might be interested in renting curated collections to accompany the Mobile Ed. course. 

More broadly, I would also support a rent-to-buy model whereby we pay a lower rental price and, at the end of the term, get to purchase the product outright at a discounted rate (having taken into account the rental fees paid - almost like a deferred payment plan).

Subscription groups is an interesting concept. I would be interested in seeing Faithlife offering curated collections, by subscription, to groups. These curated collections could then be used in a classroom or small group context.

In terms of price points, I would be willing to pay up to $110 a month for a sizeable library of premium items on a rent-to-by model.

However, I would suggest that something closer to the Netflix subscription cost would be more attractive to a lay-reader engaged in a small group and wanting to rent a curated collection with some core functionality to support a course or class. Again, a rent-to-buy model may well tempt such a reader to take the jump to a base package following conclusion of the course and expiry of the licence.

Posts 943
Everett Headley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 6:20 AM

I agree that is don't want any subscription services at all.  Unless that is the only way that Logos will fix the journal issue.  

Posts 591
Rayner | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 6:26 AM

Dave Moser:

The reasons I can see myself renting from Logos:

  1. I'm working on a sermon/study/project and really want to work from an individual commentary/background/resource for which I don't want to pay full price and won't use after the immediate work is done.
  2. I'm looking into the quality of a commentary/media/etc set and want to use one volume of the set to consider buying the whole thing.

At no point do I see myself renting a large library (that, knowing Logos, won't be focused in any useful way - remember how Beale's NT theology was locked away in that ridiculous collection for ages? Yep, had to buy it in hard back).

I basically agree entirely with the above, but would also submit a third reason that I'd subscribe which would be for solid Anglican and academic journal access. I don't need to own the journals, but they're often impossible to obtain without affiliation to an academic instituition which ceases once one leaves university / seminary.

Posts 1386
Forum MVP
Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 6:59 AM

Tes:

Whyndell Grizzard:

Not interested in subscriptions at all, at any level. I want to own what I pay for. 

I agree with you100%.

Yes

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 7:18 AM

Let me make a distinction that I'm not sure is made clear by some of the posts.

When we buy from Logos (and I do, extensively) we don't own the title. We own rights to use the title. 

In any case, I'm less interested in the rental model than the ownership model. Unless you were able to make all the titles I don't own in Logos available for 9$ like with Netflix (at that price point I'd have some returns to make and titles to cancel). Even if there was as much as a year delay between publication in Logos, and availability to subscribers. 

Unix mentioned less downloads, I don't want that either. Downloads mean my titles are being updated, Downloads mean I'm getting new titles. Less downloads mean I'm not seeing typos fixed and so forth. People have the tools to limit their downloads to whatever suits their needs. That is sufficient. 

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 166
Anthony | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 7:37 AM

Subscription models seem like they might appeal to people who would like a tailored interest that is managed for them. It may also be good for Sunday School Teachers who move from topic to topic. Seminary students may like a web-portal type access for subscriptions to save costs on a laptop; they could instead go w/a tablet or netbook, as most other applications are moving towards Software as a Service models as well (Office products, Adobe, etc).

I've enjoyed accessing Logos as is, do not seem to find it buggy (not a power user though), and like building my own library for my interests. I would like to maintain offline use, and some amount of ownership, and access to books that do not come and go.

Offline use and access to my library/all features is one of the highest factors for me. I suppose I'd lean toward some form of packages for subscription, but maintaining the main 'meat' of the model you currently have.  

Posts 166
Anthony | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 7:50 AM

If you provided the subscription service, I'd vote it to look this way:

Bob Pritchett:

Online only vs. offline software, too. 

Online only seems more manageable. 

Whole books or growing libraries. 

Either? 

Temporary book access. 

There would need to be some sort-of User Feedback/interaction, because what if you dump a bunch of books being read or studied? But otherwise, most books would be okay for that; I'm thinking of mostly non-scholarship level books, like non-fiction, fiction, or ministerial. (Vyrso type books)

All-in or toe-in-the-water. 

The only thing I'd ever rent would be an expensive commentary or reference type book, and only for a short period, or I'd just buy it. In fact I'd probably only rent to sample if it was useful enough to buy. Again, I think it would change if we were talking about book selection from Vyrso. 

Subscription groups. 

I think this is a great idea! While my church is in the stone-age of technology, I think large churches w/tech savvy congregants would love it. 

A vote on new content. 

User interaction is always good, though getting them to get involved may be a challenge. 

How much? 

Difficult to answer, how much data can be pulled from what users commonly choose for payment plans now? It would vary also between whether the subscription is geared towards the individual paying, or more of a group access, in which the local church could work out how to pay for it and share amongst members. For instance, church members all have access to an online church library (for their own church) and pay whatever they choose to have in their library. 

Posts 10040
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 7:50 AM

Not being purposely disagreeable, abondservant, but the previous weekend illustrated what 'digital' was; license rights are irrelevent in the absence of a server.  It's not unlike a fancy vehicle with no gasoline.  Everyone has to reassure each other that the server will always work.

I'm kind of curious why the proposal uses movie distribution as Bob's primary comparison?  I'm guessing maybe that's where most see 'subscriptions'?

In the Amazon example, I signed up but then un-signed up.  The problem was what was included in the subscription.  The 'good stuff' wasn't included (typically low-volume, high cost).  But the cheapees were (good if you like fiction).  That kind of matches Bob's use of the movies example.

Certainly the college library example is a gimmee.  And similarly for anyone that would normally need a library, though the limitation is the Logos library (quite narrow at the subject level).  But how many libraries are there, that need a significant subset deliverable on a peculiar platform?

Renting, similar to libraries, has its appeal to people doing papers.  Maybe pastors doing sermons.  But I'd assume the latter would want to 'buy' if they enjoyed it.  So also the current 30-day return availability.

I like to rent on very narrow subjects.  I get really tired of books piling up in my Kindle library (reminding me I DID waste money on that crazy author). But Logos has the bad habit of discounting a lot of titles ... so much that renting isn't that attractive.

I'd be curious just how large such a market might be.  Best I can see, 'students'.


Posts 667
Jonathan Pitts | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 8:39 AM

I've been pushing for a little while for a subscription option.

 

My vision is for Logos/Faithlife to handle the hardware side of things for me:

—  I do most of my reading on the iPad, but I want the full Logos desktop experience in a virtual app or virtual desktop form.

—  I want the same Logos experience on iPad and PC, just pick up where I left off on another device.

—  I want Logos available in a hotel room, without taking a PC with me.

—  The iPad has a higher-resolution screen than my Ultrabook PC, which could be good for reading in Logos, but using a remote-access app like Splashtop doesn't achieve the clarity that I would like. Could a Logos virtual app do better?

—  Touchscreen control isn't perfect with Splashtop, and this could be incorporated into a Logos virtual app.

—  My 128 GB SSD is nearly full, and the biggest chunk of it is Logos. I don't want to buy a computer with a bigger disk in order to store Logos resources which I am not actively using most of the time. But I do want to have those resources available quickly online if a search turns up that they may contain something of interest to what I am currently studying.

—  I use no other PC software that has the same processing power requirements as Logos.

—  Updates and indexing are a pain; I'd like Logos to do them for me behind the scenes. After big updates like we've had recently, there are millions of computers around the world indexing very similar material. With a virtual app, the whole Logos library could be indexed once and then pushed to the various servers.

 

I already have a substantial library and lots of money invested. I don't want to be paying again for a subscription to resources that I already own. I can think of three subscription models that might work (together):

—  A cheap option for using my purchased library in a virtual app. Perhaps up to $25/month. This is roughly the price of a new Ultrabook PC every 5 years. The money is coming from my hardware budget not my book buying budget. I'm presuming that Logos purchasing server use for this works out a lot cheaper than me hiring a virtual machine.

—  A very cheap and enticing price for subscription users to use a new resource for 24 hours. Perhaps $2; the cheaper it is the more likely I am to try something new. Searches show results from the whole Logos library; if I don't own the resource, I'm told the price for 24 hours and am just a single click away from accessing it. I can do this on several days if required. Charge me at the end of the month please, to save on international banking fees. Perhaps I could have my $2 deducted if after trying the resource I decide to buy it.

—  Higher prices for multiuser licences to the whole Logos library. Various prices for 2, 5, 10, 100, 1000 users. This provides an alternative route of entry for new users and potentially some very big income if a whole church decided to subscribe.

Posts 128
Nathan | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 9:23 AM

Russ White:

When you start actually paying for the network, you'll quickly realize this isn't as cheap as it seems. Right now providers subsidize their networks off content and services -- the entire net neutrality debate comes down this single point. Services carry the cost of the network. When you put all the services thousands of miles away from the users, then someone must bear the cost of transporting the services.

That will be you.

And I can tell you -- networks are more expensive than "fancy hardware," and "hard drives." 

:-)

The question was, what subscription services would we be interested in.  Not what was cost efficient or easy for Logos.  There ARE companies out there that are offering virtual desktops, Amazon is doing it now in the $25-60/mo. range if I remember right.  Challenging yes, impossible, maybe but it seems a good fit for Logos in many ways.

Posts 1073
Martin Folley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 9:25 AM

Whyndell Grizzard:

Not interested in subscriptions at all, at any level. I want to own what I pay for. 

Yes

FWIW. I have stopped using Microsoft and Adobe products because of their moves to subscription. The subscription for all of the various services mount up to the pint of being ludicrous ... and they do so quietly since every provider usually wants to emphasise that their only cost $x per month.

2010 17" MBP with High Sierra, iPad4 with iOS10.

Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 30 2014 9:43 AM

My only interest in a subscription is to gain access to theological journals that otherwise seems to be problematic for Logos to produce regularly...and only at a very "reasonable" cost per month. 

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