Logos 4 should still be in Beta

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Charles Bradley | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jan 15 2010 5:35 AM

I upgraded to v. 4 as soon as I heard about it. I should have waited at least a year. The best thing about v.4 is that it doesn't cripple v.3. L4 is not for the working man. Simple things are difficult. It is not intuitive. It is a resource hog. I actually have it running on a laptop that I don't need just so that it can index and update to its heart's content and not impede the rest of my computer life. Postponing four hours is no help when the workday is longer than four hours. The size of the automatic updates proves that it was not ready to go gold. I can't blame the company for wanting a slick looking product, that is what will sell. However, it comes up short in so many ways that were well covered in v.3.

Posts 323
Doug | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 5:46 AM

These were pretty much my sentiments when I first made the swith too.  In fact, I've seen that quite a bit around here.  However, most people change their attitude after using the product for about two weeks.  It takes a little while to get acclimated to L4.  I can guarantee you than it is not in any way inferior to L3.  In fact, I now find it to be much more powerful and easier to use at the same time.  You do need a good computer to run it on.  Logos makes no apologies for that.  Bob says they are designing this program with the future in mind and that in a couple of years, we'll all be glad that he did.  In my opinion, all the size of the downloads proves is that they are working on making things better.  The resources already work just fine but they are fixing typos and sprucing things up a bit.  Again, I can relate to how you feel right now.  But watch the videos and actually use the product for a little while.  Then, you'll be better qualified to compare L4 to L3.  Remember, you've used L3 for years and it's second nature to you now.  You have to use L4 for a little while for it to have that same advantage.

Posts 225
Michael Birney | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 8:44 AM

There are some people who, like you, have decided that L4 is just not for them now, but are looking forward to the future to use it, but there are a lot of people who love it, and think it is a giant improvement over L3.  

I'd suggest you read over the forum and look at what some others have to say, and then watch the video's and then make your judgement.

For me, I have the exact opposite reaction as you, I think L4 is a giant improvement, and find L3 very lacking now. 

Posts 85
Mike Waugh | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 9:00 AM

CharlesBradley:

I upgraded to v. 4 as soon as I heard about it. I should have waited at least a year. The best thing about v.4 is that it doesn't cripple v.3. L4 is not for the working man. Simple things are difficult. It is not intuitive. It is a resource hog. I actually have it running on a laptop that I don't need just so that it can index and update to its heart's content and not impede the rest of my computer life. Postponing four hours is no help when the workday is longer than four hours. The size of the automatic updates proves that it was not ready to go gold. I can't blame the company for wanting a slick looking product, that is what will sell. However, it comes up short in so many ways that were well covered in v.3.

I've owned L4 for about 4 weeks now. During the first week I would have agreed with your post 100%. In fact, after my initial "wow this is different" moment, I continued to use L3 for my "real" research/study/prep and would only fool around with L4 when I had time. Over the next several weeks I began to use L4 more and more. Admittedly, there's been a couple of upgrades in that short time that have made using L4 a nicer experience for me. Now I'm using L4 full-time and am getting more familiar with it each day. In fact, just yesterday I switched to L3 for a bit just to see how I still felt about it and I found myself thinking in terms of L4 and getting frustrated with L3. One more thing... aside from my initial download, I haven't had an upgrade and indexing last longer that 45 minutes. 

The best part? I got the early discount and it's only going to get better from here. 

 

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 9:02 AM

CharlesBradley:
The size of the automatic updates proves that it was not ready to go gold.

Is this as a measure of the product's shortcoming or of the diligence of Logos to fix issues as soon as possible? Have you seen how many updates Microsoft pushes out? I have them coming very week.

I agree you need some computer power to run Logos 4 efficiently. I have recommended against upgrading to some friends for this reason.

I do think that there are a few things that are less intuitive than in 3.0, but many things are as intuitive or more so. The fact is it takes a mind-set change and unlearning some 3.0 approaches to adjust to 4.0. It is not the same program.

There are features missing in 3.0 that we had in 4.0. Yet there are definitely features we didn't have in 3.0. So is the cup half full or half empty? Perhaps Logos should have waited another year to get all the features in place. Perhaps they over-marketed 4.0 as a replacement for 3.0 when they knew there were many features still missing. I think you could score some points on them about that issue. Yet 4.0 is a powerful program and you get it for free. What's not to like about that?

 

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 1:27 PM

If I compare version 3 or even version 2 and what I remember about users experiences when they downloaded an upgrade to the program or resources, there were not so many reports or problems such as "what did I just download?" or "I cannot index because I get an error message"or  "crashes...".  I hope I don't have to list the assortment of buggy or unexpected behavior of L4.  Some people report losing their prioritizations or even collections. 

All of that taken together even in view of all the "new" in L4 that people love, still causes me concern everytime there is a new release or update.  I hope it works but I have only partial assurance that  my system will not incur a problem.  Granted, Logos staff are great to work with, but, I do not want to have problems for them to deal with.  I just wait days or weeks after a release before I update.  So, I feel on the defensive and am uncomfortable whenever there is a change.

 

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 1:37 PM

Joan Korte:
  I just wait days or weeks after a release before I update.  So, I feel on the defensive and am uncomfortable whenever there is a change.

Joan, that isn't a bad thing, and it isn't a sign of a product being in beta. It is just good sense. I administer hundreds of servers and I NEVER install a Microsoft update until I have either tested it on a non-production machine, or watch while other companies tested it for me on their production systems. Yet, nothing I run could be considered close to being a Beta. Stay with the stable releases, wait a week or so and see what happens when other more adventurous users load the updates, then update your machine. It is a little harder to do with the L4 update set up, but it by no means impossible, or even that hard.

 

 

Posts 1134
Juanita | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 2:01 PM

Yes, Terry, thank you for your response.  But, my comparison is with my experiences with earlier versions of Logos software and new experiences with L4.  There were not all the problems.  I don't have to say it is "beta" but it doesn't measure up with the quality of excellence I had grown to expect with Logos Bible software.

Posts 30
Jose Ortega | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 5:25 PM

I agree with the complaint. For example, how can you release a research program like L4 without a robust export and print feature?

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 5:33 PM

joseortega:
I agree with the complaint. For example, how can you release a research program like L4 without a robust export and print feature?

 

Jose,

you do it if your research shows that most users don't use those features.

 

It's not an oversight...but a strategic decision on Logos' part.

 

I agree...printing useful for me, but there are many people on this forum who've NEVER printed from Logos...!

 

So, what you deem a "must have" feature, someone else thinks that it's a throwaway and their favorite feature is a "must have"

 

Logos is a good company committed to doing right by their users...have patience. Big Smile

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 2778
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 6:34 PM

Robert Pavich:
I agree...printing useful for me, but there are many people on this forum who've NEVER printed from Logos...!
I have to admit, the the 12 years I have used Logos, I have never once printed from it.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 6:38 PM

Joe Miller:
]I have to admit, the the 12 years I have used Logos, I have never once printed from it.

I can't remember the last time I printed anything from Logos. I copy and paste a lot, however.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 2778
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 6:47 PM

with the improved notes though and clippings, I admit that I would now print from Logos and do less cutting and pasting into a word processor.

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Posts 30
Jose Ortega | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 6:53 PM

Printing is useful when the output source is a document manager such as One Note or such. Right now my searches are kept deep in the belly of this plotting Leviathan. Why would you code a research instrument without printing? I return to my annoying question. There is only one answer: holiday marketing deadlines.

Now having said that, I do agree that there is much to like about L4 and it does grow on you with time. Yes, no doubt, patience will be rewarded with further lumbering updates. Hmm. Let's do a word study on "patience" But, If I could only print it to my Windows Journal. . . ah, never mind!

Posts 2737
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 7:35 PM

joseortega:
Why would you code a research instrument without printing? I return to my annoying question. There is only one answer: holiday marketing deadlines.

With Bob P's comments about "constant beta" on Twitter, I think it was shortly after the release, it is a wonder that anyone would defend the statement "Logos 4 is not a beta program". It is. They may not call it that, but it essentially is. It is now more stable and feature complete than the initial release. It is good enough to use every day for mission critical tasks. But it is a beta in that it is not complete. The fact that there is a "missing features" page is evidence to support this view.

That said, I used GMail as a beta for years. I use many beta programs for day to day tasks. I used Windows 7 in beta for nearly a year. Beta doesn't mean horrible. It just means not fully complete and in need of users testing it.

Posts 352
Mike & Rachel Aubrey | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 7:39 PM

joseortega:
There is only one answer: holiday marketing deadlines.

Close...try ETS & SBL meetings in November -- the biggest week for Biblical studies publishing of the year.

joseortega:
Printing is useful when the output source is a document manager such as One Note or such.

Copy/Paste?

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 7:54 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
But it is a beta in that it is not complete. The fact that there is a "missing features" page is evidence to support this view.

Kevin, I don't want to start an argument over this, but suppose there was no 'missing features' listing? Would it now be considered 'complete' and therefore no longer a beta? According to your argument it seems so. So what Logos did wrong was to announce that it would add anything later. They should have kept it a secret and released new features as they chose.

I don't think I can agree with your definition of what a beta is. To me a beta is a developmental version of a product that you want to release. What is going to be released is up to the publisher. Once the product with the features the publisher wants is stable and seems to work on most of the platforms they've been able to test it on, it is released and is no longer a beta. Along the way in beta testing new features are often added and tested, but at some point the publisher has an idea of what he wants in the release version and when it gets there that's it.

While I disagree with you on your definition and the 'proof' found in a list of features Logos would like to add, I do agree that this version of Logos has not been as bug-free as 3.0 was. Frankly I recall some bugs in 2.0 but its been too long to be very specific. Perhaps there was too much of a rush to release this product. Perhaps the beta testing group was not large enough to eliminate more problems before the release, but we really have to go back to 2.0 (Series X) to make a just comparison between version upgrades. 3.0 was not a total re-work. 2.0 was and 4.0 is. Of course there will be more problems in this kind of release.

If people are disillusioned with the quality of this release, I know Logos would be glad to refund them their money. Harping on whether this is a beta or not a beta really doesn't help anyone.

Off soapbox. I'm done.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 2737
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 8:21 PM

Mark A. Smith:

Kevin A. Purcell:
But it is a beta in that it is not complete. The fact that there is a "missing features" page is evidence to support this view.

Kevin, I don't want to start an argument over this, but suppose there was no 'missing features' listing? Would it now be considered 'complete' and therefore no longer a beta? According to your argument it seems so. So what Logos did wrong was to announce that it would add anything later. They should have kept it a secret and released new features as they chose.

I don't think I can agree with your definition of what a beta is. To me a beta is a developmental version of a product that you want to release. What is going to be released is up to the publisher. Once the product with the features the publisher wants is stable and seems to work on most of the platforms they've been able to test it on, it is released and is no longer a beta. Along the way in beta testing new features are often added and tested, but at some point the publisher has an idea of what he wants in the release version and when it gets there that's it.

While I disagree with you on your definition and the 'proof' found in a list of features Logos would like to add, I do agree that this version of Logos has not been as bug-free as 3.0 was. Frankly I recall some bugs in 2.0 but its been too long to be very specific. Perhaps there was too much of a rush to release this product. Perhaps the beta testing group was not large enough to eliminate more problems before the release, but we really have to go back to 2.0 (Series X) to make a just comparison between version upgrades. 3.0 was not a total re-work. 2.0 was and 4.0 is. Of course there will be more problems in this kind of release.

If people are disillusioned with the quality of this release, I know Logos would be glad to refund them their money. Harping on whether this is a beta or not a beta really doesn't help anyone.

Off soapbox. I'm done.

First, I'm not sure if I would feel that it is beta if they hadn't announced that they'd add these features. I do know what I would not be. I would not be a Logos 4 user. If I did not know that they would be adding sermon diagramming, something I used extensively, or importing of notes, favoarites, and highlighting, or a few other features. I would have said, that Logos 4 was a major step backwards in some key features, after the official beta was over I'd have uninstalled and likely stopped using even 3 assuming that Logos was willing to downgrade their software and not want to be bitten by this again after getting used to features. I would have feared that it might happen again.

When a piece of software adds significant features that were not in it before it usually becomes version X.1 instead of X.0a as in the case of Logos 4. For example when sermon diagramming is added, that is a big addition to me. I would warrant a 4.1 number. But since it will likely not be a point release since it is really just bring 4.0 to the point where 3.0 was before plus the new features. So to me that means incomplete software (ie beta).

Yes, Logos determines alone when it is "out of beta" but users will determine when it feels like it is out of beta. I feel like it is not going to be out of beta till the missing features are complete. As for stability, even though I am running the beta version it is very stable and has not crashed much at all lately. But the early weeks after initial release it crashed often. It was in my mind still beta.

BTW I never said "proof" I said "evidence". There is a difference. A proof is something that if determined valid is irrifutable. Evidence points to the possible truth of the claim but has not necessarily proved it.

As for "harping on it" I have quit. But when a person is frustrated and posts things that I agree with, I think this community is here to help the users and so I feel like it is helpful to that person to say, "I'm with you brother/sister." I feel your pain.

To show that I am committed to Logos 4.0, when it got to a point where I felt like it was useable for everyday work I have almost quit using Bibleworks and have invested heavily in added resources. I'll be making a payment to Bob for the next 12 months.

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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 8:53 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
First, I'm not sure if I would feel that it is beta if they hadn't announced that they'd add these features. I do know what I would not be. I would not be a Logos 4 user.

That's what most of us probably would have done and feared for the future. So we know why they announced the coming features.

Kevin A. Purcell:
But when a person is frustrated and posts things that I agree with, I think this community is here to help the users and so I feel like it is helpful to that person to say, "I'm with you brother/sister." I feel your pain.

No disagreement. It's just that anger toward Logos or criticizing their decision-making isn't really going to make things better. Might make some feel better but we've still got what we've got.

I also see us having a role in trying to help make things as useful as possible with the situation we're in. I know you've done that and that's usually why you are posting here.

Kevin A. Purcell:
I'll be making a payment to Bob for the next 12 months.

Well maybe not every month, but I will be paying him, too.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 15 2010 9:04 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
First, I'm not sure if I would feel that it is beta if they hadn't announced that they'd add these features. I do know what I would not be. I would not be a Logos 4 user. If I did not know that they would be adding sermon diagramming, something I used extensively, or importing of notes, favoarites, and highlighting, or a few other features. I would have said, that Logos 4 was a major step backwards in some key features, after the official beta was over I'd have uninstalled and likely stopped using even 3 assuming that Logos was willing to downgrade their software and not want to be bitten by this again after getting used to features. I would have feared that it might happen again.

Some of the features that are considered "missing" in L4 were add-ins in L3. At the very least  we should compare base functions to base functions.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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