Why are not User Manuals Free?

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This post has 228 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 5160
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 26 2014 8:29 PM

It's called the Wiki... That said I totally agree with the sentiment that something like the MP Seminar's What's new manual should have been included with all base packages.  MP would have been paid and the cost to users would have been negligible in comparison to the total cost of the base package.

SineNomine:

I wonder if a half-decent Logos/Verbum 6 manual could be cooperatively created by forum members...

Posts 3150
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 26 2014 8:33 PM

Disciple of Christ (doc):
It's called the Wiki...

Not really, no. I'm talking about a manual, which would be designed to exist in .docx and .pdf format. There might also be a version tagged for use as a personal book, if people felt ambitious.

Posts 5160
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 26 2014 8:48 PM

SineNomine:

Disciple of Christ (doc):
It's called the Wiki...

Not really, no. I'm talking about a manual, which would be designed to exist in .docx and .pdf format. There might also be a version tagged for use as a personal book, if people felt ambitious.

i expected that objection but if you really want a PDF the wiki could be converted into PDF or doxc format, it's just HTML.  Yes it would take a fair bit of formatting work.

However Personally I don't think it should be up to users to create the manual when Logos already has an authorized trainer creating a manual.  We are letting Logos off the hook once again by accepting their refusal to come up with a better solution to a long existing disconnect between user need and their willingness to meet that need.  Users should not have to fill the void. Logos let's face it are making money out of us, so they should be providing a manual.

Posts 3150
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 26 2014 8:57 PM

Disciple of Christ (doc):
i expected that objection but if you really want a PDF the wiki could be converted into PDF or doxc format, it's just HTML.  Yes it would take a fair bit of formatting work.

Much as it takes formatting work to participate in a wiki, which is one reason why they usually don't work. In contrast, basic Word formatting is easy and commonly known and well understood. I imagine Pages for Mac is the same in those regards.

Disciple of Christ (doc):
However Personally I don't think it should be up to users to create the manual when Logos already has an authorized trainer creating a manual. We are letting Logos off the hook once again by accepting their refusal to come up with a better solution to a long existing disconnect between user need and their willingness to meet that need.  Users should not have to fill the void. Logos let's face it are making money out of us, so they should be providing a manual.

I think you're right. In an important way, however, your argument is irrelevant. I see no signs that Faithlife will create a manual along the lines of what we want. I think that forum members could, and I think that we could do it very, very well, if and only if we want to. I think that such a manual would benefit everyone who used the forums, including its creators, and that it would also benefit Faithlife, which none of us are opposed to. It might even trigger Faithlife to create its own manual.

Posts 283
Michel Pauw | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 26 2014 9:48 PM

Actually they are offering 'free' courses right now at: https://www.logos.com/intro-offers.

However, does anyone know if this also apply if you upgrade from L5 to L6?

Posts 906
Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 26 2014 10:21 PM

Michel Pauw:

Actually they are offering 'free' courses right now at: https://www.logos.com/intro-offers.

However, does anyone know if this also apply if you upgrade from L5 to L6?

It applies to any purchase. I got it with my nicot/nicnt in the Christmas sale. But I think the resource is about Bible Study in general. In the opening part I have looked at, nothing was logos specific. 

On the main topic, it is strange that software as powerful as Logos (and at this price point) does not include a manual for power users. Much of the available free content is outdated and those of us who are bivocational find ourselves with the third job of Logos trial and error. I do not see any logical reason why FL would not include a manual, except to prevent offending the official trainer and losing commission. But, the quick start videos are probably good enough for most people and the guides and fact book do a lot automatically. Logos is intuitive enough in its main feature set that I can't complain too much.

Posts 2828
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 26 2014 11:04 PM

A manual is not an unreasonable request given the premium price of Logos Bible Software.  It would be nice to have it simply download as part of the software, rather than be printed.  It would not add much cost to the software, as it would only need to be done when a new version of the software comes out.  I presume Logos' talented employees understand enough about how the software works that a manual showing how to use the software would not be that difficult.  It does not need to be as inclusive as those sold by third party venders.  But it should help anyone learn to do all the basics of using the software.

Logos is a great product and a great company, but sometimes they seem to lack common sense.  The Forums are great, of course, but there are a lot of people who would never use them.  For one thing the Forums can be intimidating to the uninitiated or the shy.  They wouldn't use them because of threads like this one, for example. 

I think Logos is miles ahead of competitors in the quality of their product, and miles behind some competitors in their common sense with regard to customers.

But that is just my opinion.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 10321
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 8:52 AM

I agree a readable startup manual targeted to specific use would be good.  I don't recommend Logos for anyone, due to expense and difficulty.  It was the same comment my brother-in-law (missionary) made years back.  Ditto my present pastor.

But I've long been an advocate (sort of) on 'painting' the Logos software into the specific use ...  which denomination, and what the person wants to do.  The idea that 'people will figure it out' is naive.  They generally just move on.  That's why I really like what MJ is trying to do with Verbum.

Myself, I need a 'technical manual'.  I don't see anything like that available, Logos or not.  Videos are almost always light-use. The wiki periodically touches on it.  I get most of my 'technical' info from the old Libronix CDs, etc.


Posts 85
Anthony Keating | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 9:19 AM

I also think the lack of a pdf training manual is a big weakness in the package. Yes there are videos but I also like to have document which can go into more detail on each feature.  Faithlife products though good are not cheap. It seems from some of the responses to this thread that there are those who will defend the indefensible for some reason I can't fathom.

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 9:38 AM

Anthony Keating:

I also think the lack of a pdf training manual is a big weakness in the package. Yes there are videos but I also like to have document which can go into more detail on each feature.  Faithlife products though good are not cheap. It seems from some of the responses to this thread that there are those who will defend the indefensible for some reason I can't fathom.

Can I Get An AMEN!!!! Yes Yes

Anthony Keating:
It seems from some of the responses to this thread that there are those who will defend the indefensible for some reason I can't fathom.

AMEN!!!! Big Smile

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 9:41 AM

Michael Childs:
The Forums are great, of course, but there are a lot of people who would never use them.  For one thing the Forums can be intimidating to the uninitiated or the shy.  They wouldn't use them because of threads like this one, for example. 

Yep.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 9:49 AM

Michael Childs:
I think Logos is miles ahead of competitors in the quality of their product, and miles behind some competitors in their common sense with regard to customers.

Yep,

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

Posts 5253
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 11:34 AM

Michael Childs:
A manual is not an unreasonable request given the premium price of Logos Bible Software. 

As I said before, clicking on the question mark in the program brings up a decent guide.

Compare Pericopes
Graphically displays pericope boundaries for multiple Bible versions.
1. Click on Tools | Passage Analysis and click on Compare Pericopes at the bottom of the window.
2. Click on Pericope Sets at the top, next to Reference box to drop down a list of available pericope sets based on the Bible versions in your library.
3. Select the sets you want to compare.
4. Type a passage or pericope in the Reference box and press Enter, or first choose a pericope and passage from the suggested matches displayed as you type.
5. Hover over or click on the pericope title to see the passage in an appropriate Bible.
Each pericope set heading has a column of pericope titles below it, aligned with the verse numbers on the left to show the extent of each pericope.

This gives a good basic usage as the above example shows. As I said above there could be expansion but it is a decent built in manual. Unless Logos help is very different than verbal help we have a decent little manual for it built in. As I said above it could be more robust but it is decent.

-Dan

Posts 10321
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 12:27 PM

Dan ... I'm just curious.  Are you suggesting others should limit themselves in their needs?  No offense, but I'd never suggest the help button for instruction for anyone at church.  I'll admit, given my humor, I'd point to the help button for a smarty that missed the obvious.

Now, before you get mad at me, a few weeks back, I intro'd a thread on copying the whole help file into a PB where it's easier to manage, highlight, make notes and so forth. But that's only because I have such a low opinion of the Logos leadership.


Posts 5160
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 12:38 PM

Dan it is not reasonable for a beginner.  They will not get that far.  They won't even know compare periscopes exists let alone look for it, if they even know what pericope means.  I had never come across the term until I came across it on the old Logos Newsgroups.  The built in help file is not the answer.  You only need to look at the responses in this thread and questions posted in other threads by new users if they are fortunate enough to make it to these forums, to see the internal help is only useful for those already comfortable with the software.  

We are all guilty at times of making this an intimidating place for new users as Michael suggests:

Michael Childs:
The Forums are great, of course, but there are a lot of people who would never use them.  For one thing the Forums can be intimidating to the uninitiated or the shy.  They wouldn't use them because of threads like this one, for example. 

Telling people you don't need a manual just use the help file when they clearly want one, whether you as a seasoned user needs one or not contributes to that intimidation factor - and I know that's not your intent, but it Can be off putting when someone with almost three 3000 posts says to new users forget about a manual, just use the help file - with its lack of visuals and at times highly technical language.

Michael once again nails it with the following statement:

Michael Childs:
I think Logos is miles ahead of competitors in the quality of their product, and miles behind some competitors in their common sense with regard to customers.

Common sense with regards to customers seems to have gone out of the door a few years ago now with their drive all about sales and profits.  The fact that they publically floated the idea of a dating service on these forums, yet are unwilling to do a descent manual for their flagship product demonstrates how far they have gone down the road of chasing profit over showing common sense with regards to their customers.

Dan Francis:

Michael Childs:
A manual is not an unreasonable request given the premium price of Logos Bible Software. 

As I said before, clicking on the question mark in the program brings up a decent guide.

Compare Pericopes
Graphically displays pericope boundaries for multiple Bible versions.
1. Click on Tools | Passage Analysis and click on Compare Pericopes at the bottom of the window.
2. Click on Pericope Sets at the top, next to Reference box to drop down a list of available pericope sets based on the Bible versions in your library.
3. Select the sets you want to compare.
4. Type a passage or pericope in the Reference box and press Enter, or first choose a pericope and passage from the suggested matches displayed as you type.
5. Hover over or click on the pericope title to see the passage in an appropriate Bible.
Each pericope set heading has a column of pericope titles below it, aligned with the verse numbers on the left to show the extent of each pericope.

This gives a good basic usage as the above example shows. As I said above there could be expansion but it is a decent built in manual. Unless Logos help is very different than verbal help we have a decent little manual for it built in. As I said above it could be more robust but it is decent.

-Dan

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 12:53 PM

Great Post DOC Smile

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 12:58 PM

Denise:
a few weeks back, I intro'd a thread on copying the whole help file into a PB where it's easier to manage, highlight, make notes and so forth. But that's only because I have such a low opinion of the Logos leadership.

Good Post Denise, Can you help me out with a link, I tried searching for it but i'm not finding it I searched (copying help file into a PB)

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

Posts 10321
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 1:13 PM

Hmmm, Bryan.  I'm not sure what search term to look for (for the thread).

But it's pretty simple; you just drag your mouse down for maybe 5 minutes (I'm exagerating).  Then control-C it (copy; windows). Paste into a Word doc. And compile it (has a bazillion warnings but who cares).

That's the simple way, but it doesn't create index headings.  Nor does it worry about 'goto's'. 

If I wasn't lazy, I'd move it into an HTML file, automatically add headers, and then recompile the PB.

That was the Logos5 help.  I notice in the Logos6 help file, they got lazy, and wherever Logos6 changed Logos5, they put a 'goto', which doesn't get picked up in the easy PB method.

It'd be even more useful, pasting sections into a mindmap.  I ought to do that on my iPad, after I get settled down with L6.

Below is what it looks like, just copying/pasting.  I like it since in the .doc file, you can add your own notes, etc.   Downside is any updates.

..


Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 1:19 PM

Dan Francis:

Michael Childs:
A manual is not an unreasonable request given the premium price of Logos Bible Software. 

As I said before, clicking on the question mark in the program brings up a decent guide.

Compare Pericopes
Graphically displays pericope boundaries for multiple Bible versions.
1. Click on Tools | Passage Analysis and click on Compare Pericopes at the bottom of the window.
2. Click on Pericope Sets at the top, next to Reference box to drop down a list of available pericope sets based on the Bible versions in your library.
3. Select the sets you want to compare.
4. Type a passage or pericope in the Reference box and press Enter, or first choose a pericope and passage from the suggested matches displayed as you type.
5. Hover over or click on the pericope title to see the passage in an appropriate Bible.
Each pericope set heading has a column of pericope titles below it, aligned with the verse numbers on the left to show the extent of each pericope.

This gives a good basic usage as the above example shows. As I said above there could be expansion but it is a decent built in manual. Unless Logos help is very different than verbal help we have a decent little manual for it built in. As I said above it could be more robust but it is decent.

-Dan

I haven't used Logos Help much (hey, I'm a guy, do we "ever" read instructions?), but I've heard both it and help files in other Bible software apps (such as Accordance) are good, decent, built-in information, so I agree with you about how useful they are. It would be better if we all tended to use them a little more. :-)

For those asking if Dan was saying we don't need a help manual, to "just use the help files", I don't think Dan was implying that at all. He was just merely pointing out a free, built-in, and way underused resource that is available to us in Logos.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 27 2014 1:21 PM

Funny how everyone thinks it should be easy for Logos to create a user manual but nobody can figure out how to create a PB out of a help file.   Maybe you guys do need a manual after all.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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