Why are not User Manuals Free?

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This post has 228 Replies | 8 Followers

Posts 2863
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 12:14 PM

Disciple of Christ (doc):
Common sense with regards to customers seems to have gone out of the door a few years ago now with their drive all about sales and profits.  The fact that they publically floated the idea of a dating service on these forums, yet are unwilling to do a descent manual for their flagship product demonstrates how far they have gone down the road of chasing profit over showing common sense with regards to their customers.

The more I stew over it, the madder I get.

If I'd know 10% of what I know now before buying in to Logos, I'd never have bought it.

If I could get even a reasonable refund on what I've spent, I'd take it and walk away in a heartbeat. (But I can't, because I took an academic discount, not knowing the 'fine print' about that either.)

Unless and until they fix the training/documentation issues, I'll do my best to make sure no one else makes the same mistakes I did.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 12:27 PM

Doc B:
The more I stew over it, the madder I get.

Sounds like a spiritual problem.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 2863
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 12:35 PM

Michael Childs:
Logos is a great product and a great company, but sometimes they seem to lack common sense.  The Forums are great, of course, but there are a lot of people who would never use them.  For one thing the Forums can be intimidating to the uninitiated or the shy.  They wouldn't use them because of threads like this one, for example. 

Well said. Some of the personal attacks by fanboys (and girls) when someone dares criticize Logos used to appall me, but not any more. I'm sure for new users, some of these threads are shocking and would keep them away. (When I was still relatively new to Logos, I had to take a six-month hiatus from the forums for this very reason...some of those people made me angry enough that I responded in kind, and my responses embarrassed me.)

Now I'm cynical enough that's no longer necessary. I'm sure I'm part of the problem now. That's an unfortunate necessity. I still try to help people with questions when I can (and I could help more if I had a stinkin' manual!), but I'll no longer keep my criticism of Logos quiet to appease idolatrous fanboys for whom Faithlife can do no wrong. Now it is *their* responses that embarrass me, and I do not shy away from pointing those out. And that's why I jumped into this fray on Bryan's behalf in the first place!

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 2863
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 12:37 PM

Super.Tramp:

Doc B:
The more I stew over it, the madder I get.

Sounds like a spiritual problem.

Thank you for identifying yourself as one of the primary forum (expletive deleted) for me! Your timing could not have been any better!

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 27059
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 12:49 PM

Doc B:

The more I stew over it, the madder I get.

If I'd know 10% of what I know now before buying in to Logos, I'd never have bought it.

If I could get even a reasonable refund on what I've spent, I'd take it and walk away in a heartbeat. (But I can't, because I took an academic discount, not knowing the 'fine print' about that either.)

Unless and until they fix the training/documentation issues, I'll do my best to make sure no one else makes the same mistakes I did.

I think you've finally hit on the core of the problem. You are a person who stews; Logos, like any software, has flaws that will drive a user nuts if that user cannot easily adjust to the way Logos works and the way it is documented. I am a person who pushes the boundaries of the software and then get annoyed that I've lost functionality ... not knowing Logos never thought I had it (e.g. ability to create one's own timelines in L3). You took an academic discount without reading the fine print and it sounds as if you now feel trapped. When I have fine print come back and bite me, I laugh at myself for not being more cautious. You want to insure no one makes the same mistake you did - a worthwhile goal we share. However, I would ask that you do so not by universally panning Logos but by recognizing that the software and the user must be compatible. There are other Logos users who, like you, feel trapped and are unhappy with the software; there are other Logos users who, like me, take a relaxed "it is what it is and it was/is my first choice" attitude. And there are those who find a way to do what they need to do with Logos, rarely explore further or consider new options, who are very comfortable with their choice and recommend Logos highly to their friends. Please don't project your misery on them - you and Logos are a bad fit. Think of it as parallel to some of the software horror stories you read in the paper where a well-known software vendor fails spectacularly because their product was a misfit for the company/problem at hand. (My personal experience was with a time collection product that could not handle hospital requirements). 

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 12:51 PM

Doc B:
Some of the personal attacks by fanboys (and girls) when someone dares criticize Logos used to appall me, but not any more.

Me Neither, 

Doc B:
Now it is *their* responses that embarrass me, and I do not shy away from pointing those out. And that's why I jumped into this fray on Bryan's behalf in the first place!

Thanks for the support Doc B

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

Posts 27059
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 1:00 PM

Bryan S.:

Doc B:
Some of the personal attacks by fanboys (and girls) when someone dares criticize Logos used to appall me, but not any more.

Me Neither, 

All attacks appall me but I am often amused at how "fanboy" is tossed about. It is clearly used in a subjective and pejorative manner. I prefer terms to be more objective and neutral which improves clear thinking and deescalates friction in an environment that lacks the visual and aural components of interpersonal communication. BTW some of the people most often labeled "fanboys" are the same people who push effectively for the changes that improve Logos.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 10339
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 1:07 PM

Well, I'm a fangirl, and I'm proud to say that.  That'd be a fangirl of Libronix, of course.  Which has a manual, by the way.  Quite a few, due to 3rd party resource creation.

For me, the issue is a conscious decision by the Logos leadership.  And if it were just some sort of 'software', whatever.  But the 'leadership' portrays the software as specifically intended for spiritual development (their blog/advertising). 

Thus I agree with Doc.  And Bryan.   And I don't agree with Bob wishing to 'de-spiritualize' the conversation, when he makes money off doing just that.


Posts 180
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 2:25 PM

Super.Tramp:

Doc B:
The more I stew over it, the madder I get.

Sounds like a spiritual problem.

MJ. Smith:

Doc B:

The more I stew over it, the madder I get.

If I'd know 10% of what I know now before buying in to Logos, I'd never have bought it.

If I could get even a reasonable refund on what I've spent, I'd take it and walk away in a heartbeat. (But I can't, because I took an academic discount, not knowing the 'fine print' about that either.)

Unless and until they fix the training/documentation issues, I'll do my best to make sure no one else makes the same mistakes I did.

I think you've finally hit on the core of the problem. You are a person who stews;

I am so thankful we have identified the problem. Now, if we can get Doc to stop stewing, the whole issue will be resolved.Stick out tongue

Posts 5253
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 2:55 PM

Denise:
Well, I'm a fangirl, and I'm proud to say that.  That'd be a fangirl of Libronix, of course.  Which has a manual, by the way.  Quite a few, due to 3rd party resource creation.

Despite defending the point that the help system is a good start on a manual and my heated defence of Logos with it's outage earlier this fall I in no way consider myself a Logos fanboy. Indeed many people might have accused me of being an Accordance fanboy, which i will not deny. I will not call either Logos or Accordance perfect programs. Both programs have strengths and weaknesses. I do hope Faithlife can upgrade the help system. I dare say some people (not saying anyone in this discussion) would not be happy with any results.

-Dan

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 3:35 PM

For Doc and Bryan:

Logos is in the process of digitizing Morris Proctor's "What's New in 6 Manual" as an eBook in your library:

https://www.logos.com/product/48987/logos-6-whats-new

If there's a way to gift pre-pubs, I'd be happy to contact my sales rep and personally pay for each of you to have this. If not, when it become available, I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.

If I did that, would you feel a little "better" about using Logos and be willing to read it and invest the time to learn the software? Additionally, if there's any questions you didn't know how to do something with Logos, I'd be willing to allow you to personally email me and I'd be happy to do my best to explain it.

If you'd rather have the hard copy instead of the eBook, that can be arranged as well.

Would you have more confidence in the software if a fellow brother in Christ paid to give you the training/manual you need?

Once you dive into the software and have a chance to truly learn it, you will see just how much it will revolutionize your Bible study. I couldn't be surviving seminary without it. If it means paying out of my own pocket to give you more confidence in Logos, I'm willing to do it. That's how much I believe it'll deepen your Bible study.

And no, I am not on Faithlife's payroll or represent the company in any way. I'm just a fellow user willing to do what it takes to see another couple fellow users satisfied.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 9019
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 3:51 PM

Nathan Parker:
If there's a way to gift pre-pubs, I'd be happy to contact my sales rep and personally pay for each of you to have this. If not, when it become available, I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.

What a generous offer Nathan. Your gentle words of kindness and encouragement are appreciated.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 4:11 PM

Nathan Parker:

If there's a way to gift pre-pubs, I'd be happy to contact my sales rep and personally pay for each of you to have this. If not, when it become available, I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.

If I did that, would you feel a little "better" about using Logos and be willing to read it and invest the time to learn the software? Additionally, if there's any questions you didn't know how to do something with Logos, I'd be willing to allow you to personally email me and I'd be happy to do my best to explain it.

Nathan, I thank you for your generous offer, it is very kind one I have never turned down such generosity for I know how the Lord Blesses generous people.

Willing to read it, Yes..... that's my problem I have watched every video and most of all the youtube videos as well, but there is much missing... The reason I invested in Logos was to improve my Bible study, but I often close the laptop lid frustrated.

Nathan Parker:
Once you dive into the software and have a chance to truly learn it, you will see just how much it will revolutionize your Bible study. I couldn't be surviving seminary without it.

That was why I purchased it as well..

God Bless, And Thank You

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

Posts 251
Rod | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 4:22 PM

Every single feature in Logos 6 should be documented and available to users.  That is normal commercial practice.

Having features that are not properly documented and having to search the forums for them is a waste of everyone's time.

Logos software is a great product.  The lack of a proper manual simply detracts from an otherwise good user experience.

Posts 5176
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 4:23 PM

Bruce Dunning:

Nathan Parker:
If there's a way to gift pre-pubs, I'd be happy to contact my sales rep and personally pay for each of you to have this. If not, when it become available, I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.

What a generous offer Nathan. Your gentle words of kindness and encouragement are appreciated.

Nathan is one of the good guys around here.  He shows great wisdom beyond his years with his generous offer.  So much more wisdom than the two people quoted below who have Stars under there Avatars.  They should be hanging their heads in shame at their responses for they are the sort of responses that only fuel the fire. Too often MVP's around here are quick to judge, belittle and point the issue back at the person who has an issue or complaint about the software or the company.  

While Nathan's offer does not fix the ongoing issue it is one of compassion and unconditional love one that reaches out personally to try and make a difference to fellow brothers in Christ.

Well done Nathan.

Super.Tramp:

Doc B:
The more I stew over it, the madder I get.

Sounds like a spiritual problem.

MJ. Smith:

Doc B:

The more I stew over it, the madder I get.

If I'd know 10% of what I know now before buying in to Logos, I'd never have bought it.

If I could get even a reasonable refund on what I've spent, I'd take it and walk away in a heartbeat. (But I can't, because I took an academic discount, not knowing the 'fine print' about that either.)

Unless and until they fix the training/documentation issues, I'll do my best to make sure no one else makes the same mistakes I did.

I think you've finally hit on the core of the problem. You are a person who stews;

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 4:28 PM

Bryan S.:

Nathan Parker:

If there's a way to gift pre-pubs, I'd be happy to contact my sales rep and personally pay for each of you to have this. If not, when it become available, I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.

If I did that, would you feel a little "better" about using Logos and be willing to read it and invest the time to learn the software? Additionally, if there's any questions you didn't know how to do something with Logos, I'd be willing to allow you to personally email me and I'd be happy to do my best to explain it.

Nathan, I thank you for your generous offer, it is very kind one I have never turned down such generosity for I know how the Lord Blesses generous people.

Willing to read it, Yes..... that's my problem I have watched every video and most of all the youtube videos as well, but there is much missing... The reason I invested in Logos was to improve my Bible study, but I often close the laptop lid frustrated.

Nathan Parker:
Once you dive into the software and have a chance to truly learn it, you will see just how much it will revolutionize your Bible study. I couldn't be surviving seminary without it.

That was why I purchased it as well..

God Bless, And Thank You

Sounds good. Let me know if you want me to go for it and I'll have an email into my sales rep ASAP to at least see how to get it for you.

If you want to send me a message here and include the email address you use for Logos, that'll help ensure I send it to the right account:

http://www.mallardcomputer.com/wp/about/executives/nathanparker/

I also want to encourage you to do two other things for me:

1. Check out this page and sign up for some free webinars on some topics that interest you:

http://www.learnlogos.com/category_s/1891.htm

I've attended a bunch of these, and they're a great way to get you to feel more confident in the program. You're interacting with other believers live, can ask questions, etc. Even though I'm a "seasoned" Logos user and thought I knew a bunch about the program, these webinars helped me to go from knowing a lot about the program to better using it efficiently. They've been very practical for me and been a huge help. And great thing is, they're free.

Also, feel free to join this group on Faithlife:

https://faithlife.com/learnlogoscom-presentation/activity

It was used for a Bible study Learn Logos did on Jonah. I'm trying to get with John to revamp the page and use it as a group page where we can interact with each other, answer questions on how to do things in Logos, etc. I don't work for Learn Logos or for John, but I wanted to help users get more out of Faithlife groups and Logos, so I've been volunteering my time on this group page (and others).

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 4:32 PM

Disciple of Christ (doc):
While Nathan's offer does not fix the ongoing issue it is one of compassion and unconditional love one that reaches out personally to try and make a difference to fellow brothers in Christ.

Will Nathan's offer satisfy either one of them?

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 183
Bryan S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 4:39 PM

Nathan Parker:

I also want to encourage you to do two other things for me:

1. Check out this page and sign up for some free webinars on some topics that interest you:

http://www.learnlogos.com/category_s/1891.htm

I have done that a few weeks ago

Nathan Parker:

Also, feel free to join this group on Faithlife:

https://faithlife.com/learnlogoscom-presentation/activity

I have done this as well.

Nathan Parker:
I don't work for Learn Logos or for John, but I wanted to help users get more out of Faithlife groups and Logos, so I've been volunteering my time on this group page (and others).

Once again Thank You

Christianity has not been tried and found wanting; it's been found difficult and not tried.

Posts 787
James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 4:46 PM

Nathan Parker:

For Doc and Bryan:

Logos is in the process of digitizing Morris Proctor's "What's New in 6 Manual" as an eBook in your library:

https://www.logos.com/product/48987/logos-6-whats-new

If there's a way to gift pre-pubs, I'd be happy to contact my sales rep and personally pay for each of you to have this. If not, when it become available, I could contact my sales rep and still personally pay for both of you to have it.

If I did that, would you feel a little "better" about using Logos and be willing to read it and invest the time to learn the software? Additionally, if there's any questions you didn't know how to do something with Logos, I'd be willing to allow you to personally email me and I'd be happy to do my best to explain it.

If you'd rather have the hard copy instead of the eBook, that can be arranged as well.

Would you have more confidence in the software if a fellow brother in Christ paid to give you the training/manual you need?

Once you dive into the software and have a chance to truly learn it, you will see just how much it will revolutionize your Bible study. I couldn't be surviving seminary without it. If it means paying out of my own pocket to give you more confidence in Logos, I'm willing to do it. That's how much I believe it'll deepen your Bible study.

And no, I am not on Faithlife's payroll or represent the company in any way. I'm just a fellow user willing to do what it takes to see another couple fellow users satisfied.

Wow how generous of you. God Bless you always my Brother in Christ!

James

Posts 180
Paul C | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 28 2014 4:46 PM

Super.Tramp:

Disciple of Christ (doc):
While Nathan's offer does not fix the ongoing issue it is one of compassion and unconditional love one that reaches out personally to try and make a difference to fellow brothers in Christ.

Will Nathan's offer satisfy either one of them?

As Disciple of Christ pointed out, Whether these 2 are satisfied or not is not the Real issue. Greasing the hub of the squeaky wheel will not fix the neglected/abused spokes which will eventually cause the wagon to crumble.

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