Better Hebrew searches

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Posts 7
Tarsee Li | Forum Activity | Posted: Fri, Jan 2 2015 8:15 PM

Hebrew "words" can include prefixed and suffixed lexemes. Currently, these lexemes must be searched separately. I would like to suggest allowing for searches that include the main lexeme and all possible combinations of prefixed and suffixed lexemes.

Example: Morphological search: All "words" that are nouns masc. sing. (@NMS?), with the prefixes (conjunction ו + preposition ב) and the suffix (2ms pronominal suffix) in one "word."

If doing such a search is already available, it probably involves a very complicated search expression. Please, simplify it. If it is not available, please, make it possible.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 2 2015 11:33 PM

Does searching by root come closer to what you want  than searching by lemma?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 7
Tarsee Li | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 4 2015 11:51 AM

No. Hebrew searches in Logos are set up to search for specific lemmas or roots only. But Hebrew "words" are often composed of several lemmas. Therefore, Logos should let us search for the "words" including their component lemmas. Just try doing the search I suggested above, and see if it's possible.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 4 2015 3:53 PM

Excuse me for being dense - I don't read Hebrew but I'm reasonably familiar with linguistics. What do you want that differs from this?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 4 2015 7:57 PM

Tarsee Li:
Example: Morphological search: All "words" that are nouns masc. sing. (@NMS?), with the prefixes (conjunction ו + preposition ב) and the suffix (2ms pronominal suffix) in one "word."

Welcome Big Smile

Does such a word exist in the Hebrew Bible ?

Tarsee Li:
If doing such a search is already available, it probably involves a very complicated search expression.

BEFORE 0 WORD can be used to connect lemmas and/or morph codes for searching.

@C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @N?MS

finds 9 results in the Lexham Hebrew Bible that have conjunction ו + preposition ב prefixes in one word:

@C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @N?MS BEFORE 0 WORD @RS

found one Hebrew word with a pronoun suffix in 2 Samuel 1:23

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 2472
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 4 2015 9:29 PM

Welcome to the Forums, Tarsee.

Tarsee Li:

Example: Morphological search: All "words" that are nouns masc. sing. (@NMS?), with the prefixes (conjunction ו + preposition ב) and the suffix (2ms pronominal suffix) in one "word."

Do you mean to include words marked as "common" gender, but considered by some to be masculine, i.e. something like וּבִֽלְבָבְךָ (Deut. 30:14) or וּבִדְבָרְיךָ qere וּבִדְבָרְךָ (1 Kings 18:36)? I too would be interested to know how this search works in Logos.

You may find this interesting:

Noun gender presents multiple difficulties. The biblical texts allow us to determine the gender of only about half of the nouns. The gender of several nouns varies for various reasons. It is the task of lexicographers to indicate them.

Posts 161
David Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 5:14 AM

Hi, I'd really like to be able to use the find feature to search for vowel and consonant combinations, but Logos ignores the vowels when I type them into find. It's incredibly frustrating.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 9:17 AM

Lee:
Do you mean to include words marked as "common" gender, but considered by some to be masculine, i.e. something like וּבִֽלְבָבְךָ (Deut. 30:14) or וּבִדְבָרְיךָ qere וּבִדְבָרְךָ (1 Kings 18:36)? I too would be interested to know how this search works in Logos.

Morph Search using Logos Hebrew Morphology:

@C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NC-SC BEFORE 0 WORD @RS2MS

or

@C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NC?SC BEFORE 0 WORD @RS2MS

Morphological tag NC-SC uses a dash for Noun Gender.  The Lexham Hebrew Bible has inline interlinear option to show Kethiv Reading, Qere Reading, and/or Kethiv-Qere Hybrid Form.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 9:26 AM

David Roberts:

Hi, I'd really like to be able to use the find feature to search for vowel and consonant combinations, but Logos ignores the vowels when I type them into find. It's incredibly frustrating.

Thread => Still no Search with Hebrew Vowel Pointing?? includes:

Logos 5.2 Beta 1 has search modifiers => http://wiki.logos.com/Search_Matching_Commands

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 2472
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 9:59 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Lee:
Do you mean to include words marked as "common" gender, but considered by some to be masculine, i.e. something like וּבִֽלְבָבְךָ (Deut. 30:14) or וּבִדְבָרְיךָ qere וּבִדְבָרְךָ (1 Kings 18:36)? I too would be interested to know how this search works in Logos.

Morph Search using Logos Hebrew Morphology:

@C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NC-SC BEFORE 0 WORD @RS2MS

or

@C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NC?SC BEFORE 0 WORD @RS2MS

Thanks. Just to point out that this search would be necessarily over-inclusive. Tarsee would have to do some manual filtering of the noun gender.

Posts 7
Tarsee Li | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 11:37 AM

No, you are not dense. Thanks for trying, but no, that search does not do it.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 11:41 AM

Lee:

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Lee:
Do you mean to include words marked as "common" gender, but considered by some to be masculine, i.e. something like וּבִֽלְבָבְךָ (Deut. 30:14) or וּבִדְבָרְיךָ qere וּבִדְבָרְךָ (1 Kings 18:36)? I too would be interested to know how this search works in Logos.

Morph Search using Logos Hebrew Morphology:

@C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NC-SC BEFORE 0 WORD @RS2MS

or

@C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NC?SC BEFORE 0 WORD @RS2MS

Thanks. Just to point out that this search would be necessarily over-inclusive. Tarsee would have to do some manual filtering of the noun gender.

Learned Morph search @NC-SC matches fewer Nouns than @NC?SC (since ? can match any gender specification, including feminine):

Deuteronomy 7:14 has a Feminine common Noun with a Masculine suffix.

Lexham Hebrew Bible does not specify noun gender for וּבְדִבְרֵיךָ in 1 Kings 18:36 while having tags for plural and singular

Deuteronomy 30:14 has וּבִֽלְבָבְךָ Common Noun with singular tagging while gender is not specified:

Morph search using Logos Hebrew Morphology

@C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @N?MS BEFORE 0 WORD @RS2MS

does not find any results in the Lexham Hebrew Bible because Noun specification includes Masculine.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 7
Tarsee Li | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 11:44 AM

Thanks. The results look like the type of search I was wanting to do. However, I can't get it to work in my computer. Do you have to have a specific Hebrew text?

Posts 7
Tarsee Li | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 11:54 AM

Thanks, Lee. I wasn't trying to find a specific kind of noun. I was more interested in the syntax. The example I gave was just an example. Your answer is helpful. It's exactly the kind of search I need to do. However, I can't get it to work in my computer. I'm trying it with LHB. Do I have to have Logos 6?

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 11:56 AM

Tarsee Li:
If doing such a search is already available, it probably involves a very complicated search expression. Please, simplify it.

"BEFORE 0 WORD" is the complicated morph search connector. An alias that is easier to type would be appreciated.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 7
Tarsee Li | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 12:12 PM

Lee, I finally got it to work. Here is one search I did: @C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NCFS. However, I get three results for each hit (one for the C, one for the P, and one for the N). I consider this to be "one" word, not three (albeit with three lexemes). I guess we are just "tricking" the program by asking for three words with 0 spaces between them Smile. Similarly, @C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NCMS BEFORE 0 WORD @RS gives me four hits for the only instance in the Bible, but it's all the same word.

Well, I can live with the multiple hits (though it would be less work for me if the program would recognize the category "word" to include not only multiple morphemes but also multiple lexemes).

Anyway, you have been a great help. I hope this thread will be useful to others as well. Thanks again, everyone!

Posts 7
Tarsee Li | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 12:14 PM

Sorry, I called you "Lee." You are "Keep Smiling 4 Jesus." Apologies for the mistake. Blessings.

Posts 2472
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 12:24 PM

Tarsee:

1. By clicking on the "More" button on the top right of your posts, you can Edit posts. You only lose that functionality after a few hours of posting.

2. Within 5 minutes of posting, one more function is available: Delete post.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 2:48 PM

Tarsee Li:
Here is one search I did: @C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NCFS. However, I get three results for each hit (one for the C, one for the P, and one for the N). I consider this to be "one" word, not three (albeit with three lexemes). I guess we are just "tricking" the program by asking for three words with 0 spaces between them Smile. Similarly, @C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NCMS BEFORE 0 WORD @RS gives me four hits for the only instance in the Bible, but it's all the same word.

Concur Morph Search result count includes combination of lexemes and morph codes, but lacks number of words found.  For example, Lexham Hebrew Bible has 102 results in 24 verses for 25 highlighted words, which is a bit more than 4 results per word.  Morph Search Analysis can be used to group lexemes.

Morph Search syntax varies with different Hebrew morphologies plus can have different results due to tagging differences.

Logos Hebrew Morphology:

@C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NC-SC BEFORE 0 WORD @RS2MS

Werkgroep Informatica (WIVU) Hebrew Morphology (is identical to Logos Hebrew Morphology for this search):

@C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NC-SC BEFORE 0 WORD @RS2MS

Andersen-Forbes Hebrew Morphology (has different lemma and Morph codes)

@C BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:ב@P BEFORE 0 WORD @NCcSMS BEFORE 0 WORD @RBSM2

Westminster Hebrew Morphology has pronominal suffix for Nouns (along with different Morph codes)

@Pc BEFORE 0 WORD lemma:בְּ@Pp BEFORE 0 WORD @ncmsc+S2ms

Dreaming of an alias for "BEFORE 0 WORD" (or "BEFORE 0 WORDS") that would be quicker to type for all Morphologies when searching for more than one lexeme in a word.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 161
David Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 5 2015 3:45 PM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

David Roberts:

Hi, I'd really like to be able to use the find feature to search for vowel and consonant combinations, but Logos ignores the vowels when I type them into find. It's incredibly frustrating.

Thread => Still no Search with Hebrew Vowel Pointing?? includes:

Logos 5.2 Beta 1 has search modifiers => http://wiki.logos.com/Search_Matching_Commands

Keep Smiling Smile



Thanks for that!

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