Finding Old Testament quotes in New Testament per Morris Proctor

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GregW | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Jan 6 2015 5:52 AM

I thought Morris Proctor's latest post on the Logos blog was great. This got me thinking that it would be great to be able to do a search to find any Old Testament prophet quoted in the New Testament but I can't think of a way of doing this short of having a search with multiple OR statements in it. Does anyone have any thoughts on this? Please don't do a whole load of work - it's not something I need to do, just something I'd like to be able to do!

I love the way Morris has taken something here and done it in a way that allows us to open up all sorts of new possibilities. I tried it with Moses as well, and that worked really well too (although fans of the Documentary Hypothesis would probably dispute some of the results you get!)  

I found it fascinating to be able to see at a stroke how many times different OT prophets get quoted by different NT writers - this opens up some interesting fields of research once I've got some of the stuff I have to do out of the way. 


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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 6 2015 6:20 AM

GregW:
This got me thinking that it would be great to be able to do a search to find any Old Testament prophet quoted in the New Testament

You can do a search for OT quotations - it will give you more than prophets but could be a good place to start

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GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 6 2015 6:26 AM

Thanks Graham - I had actually just started looking at that to see if there is a way I can do it saving search results to passage lists and then doing some merges. It's a feature that I am beginning to see all sorts of uses for, having initially not thought I would have much use for it at all! 

By the way, I read your son's blog post yesterday: painful, powerful and full of integrity. 


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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 6 2015 6:28 AM

Does this work for you:

By the way, I love it when questions like this comes to the forums. It helps us think about different ways of using Logos that we may not have thought about before. Like the one above. I thought about your question and tried this (using the context menu from a quotation as starting point to see what I could search). I learned something out of it.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 6 2015 6:52 AM

Francis:
Does this work for you:

That is very niceSmile

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Fr Devin Roza | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 6 2015 7:43 AM

Nice find, Francis. Comparing this and the LiteraryType search, it looks like the best way to search for OT Quotes in the NT is actually this:

{Section <LiteraryTyping Quotation, Old Testament>} OR {Section <Culture Prophetic fulfillment>}

Neither list is complete, but together they probably get about everything (for example, the OT Quotes Literary Type is strangely missing the OT quotes from Mt 1-2... but these are in the Prophetic Fulfillment Section!)

Adapting this to the question on another post about when does Jesus quote the OT, here would be the search:

{Speaker <Person Jesus>} WITHIN ({Section <LiteraryTyping Quotation, Old Testament>}, {Section <Culture Prophetic fulfillment>})

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 6 2015 8:09 AM

Fr Devin Roza:
he OT Quotes Literary Type is strangely missing the OT quotes from Mt 1-2

For some reason they're tagged with "Quotation", rather than "Quotation, Old Testament".

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 6 2015 8:11 AM

Mark Barnes:
For some reason they're tagged with "Quotation", rather than "Quotation, Old Testament".

Did you report this as typos? I think that it is ESSENTIAL for us users to be diligent in reporting these, especially in primary sources (starting with the Bible of course) to increase the reliability of the product for our work. Although some resources are rife with typos, even those that are not may include the occasional one as human error can rarely be fully eradicated. Hopefully, the likes of core data tagging of biblical text can get better and better over time as we report what we find (and Faithlife makes corresponding fixes).

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 6 2015 9:34 AM

I don't think it's a typo problem, but a definition problem with the data. It's simply confused. I've created a new post. Let's see if we can get Sean or one of the data guys to weigh in.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 6 2015 10:14 AM

Mark Barnes:
I don't think it's a typo problem

I know it is not a typo in the common sense of the term, but personally, I use the typo tool to indicate any problem with text. For instance, links that don't work or point somewhere else and mislabeled data. I simply put a description of the problem in the comment field.

The potential of these labels and the obvious fact that they are not dependable at this point is illustrated in the following example. Anyone familiar with the Gospel of John should be struck by these results (there are results for earlier biblical books higher up in the search windows in case you wondered but I wanted to show John):

The Passover feast in John is labeled as "Passover" and the feast of the dedication as "Feast". 

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GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 6 2015 2:33 PM

Francis:

Does this work for you:

By the way, I love it when questions like this comes to the forums. It helps us think about different ways of using Logos that we may not have thought about before. Like the one above. I thought about your question and tried this (using the context menu from a quotation as starting point to see what I could search). I learned something out of it.

Thank you Francis - you've educated me further there. This is a great search to be aware of, but it gives fulfilment as opposed to actual OT prophetic citations in the NT. For example, it doesn't have any of the quotes from OT prophets in Hebrews (or the early Matthew quotes mentioned above). In fact, it doesn't have anything after 1 Cor 15:4. Some of these new search facilities are great (or will be once some of the tagging glitches are sorted out). Even in its present form I found it fascinating earlier on today to go through seeing how many times different OT prophets were cited by different NT writers. Although it's a bit fiddly having to do a different search for each prophet, its still a lot less work than it was the old way!  


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David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 6 2015 2:59 PM

The problem here is that most translations of the Old Testament are from the Hebrew and the New Testament authors were using the Greek. 

See "When God Spoke Greek: The Septuagint and the Making of the Christian Bible"   

https://www.logos.com/product/43971/when-god-spoke-greek-the-septuagint-and-the-making-of-the-christian-bible 

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Robert Kostenbauder | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 6 2015 3:06 PM

You might want to look in "Old Testament Quote in the New Testament" by David H. Phillips. I have found it very useful.

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GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 7 2015 2:26 AM

Fr Devin Roza:

Nice find, Francis. Comparing this and the LiteraryType search, it looks like the best way to search for OT Quotes in the NT is actually this:

{Section <LiteraryTyping Quotation, Old Testament>} OR {Section <Culture Prophetic fulfillment>}

Neither list is complete, but together they probably get about everything (for example, the OT Quotes Literary Type is strangely missing the OT quotes from Mt 1-2... but these are in the Prophetic Fulfillment Section!)

Adapting this to the question on another post about when does Jesus quote the OT, here would be the search:

{Speaker <Person Jesus>} WITHIN ({Section <LiteraryTyping Quotation, Old Testament>}, {Section <Culture Prophetic fulfillment>})

Thank you all, especially Fr Devin and Francis - I've learnt something from this, and it's setting me off in all sorts of interesting directions! I think this thread really demonstrates the value of these forums. 


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Robert Townsend | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 8 2015 5:55 PM

Fr Devin Roza:

Nice find, Francis. Comparing this and the LiteraryType search, it looks like the best way to search for OT Quotes in the NT is actually this:

{Section <LiteraryTyping Quotation, Old Testament>} OR {Section <Culture Prophetic fulfillment>}

Neither list is complete, but together they probably get about everything (for example, the OT Quotes Literary Type is strangely missing the OT quotes from Mt 1-2... but these are in the Prophetic Fulfillment Section!)

Adapting this to the question on another post about when does Jesus quote the OT, here would be the search:

{Speaker <Person Jesus>} WITHIN ({Section <LiteraryTyping Quotation, Old Testament>}, {Section <Culture Prophetic fulfillment>})

As a novice Logos user I find these search "strings" very helpful and interesting. Not just these listed here in particular but any that I happen to run across in the forums. Is there a place I'm not looking to find more? Maybe there should be a forum dedicated to searches in there isn't already? I'm surely not the only user that doesn't have a handle on how to run more complicated searches. Thanks!
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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 8 2015 9:23 PM

Robert Townsend:

As a novice Logos user I find these search "strings" very helpful and interesting. Not just these listed here in particular but any that I happen to run across in the forums. Is there a place I'm not looking to find more? Maybe there should be a forum dedicated to searches in there isn't already? I'm surely not the only user that doesn't have a handle on how to run more complicated searches. Thanks!

https://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP#Logos_6 has a summary of the new search structures 

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Brian Crawford | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 13 2015 1:24 PM

Thank you everyone for the search syntax here.

Here's a followup question: Is there any way to list the citations of the OT texts quoted? Is there any citation metadata associated with the "Quotation, Old Testament" field?

For instance, when doing the {Section <LiteraryTyping Quotation, Old Testament>} search on NASB95, I come up with 386 results. What if I want to find out how many of those are from Deuteronomy? Is that even possible with a search query?

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 13 2015 1:31 PM

You can try <Deuteronomy> WITHIN {Section <LiteraryTyping Quotation, Old Testament>}

However, there are resources that do this. Run a Passage Guide and look under parallel passages for references to OT quotations and allusions in the OT. If you have these resources, one of them starts from the OT and tells you where to find citations in the NT. For instance, finding out where all Deuteronomy citations are found in the NT. The other does the reverse and starts with NT books: for instance, which OT passages are cited in Matthew.

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Brian Crawford | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 13 2015 1:47 PM

Thanks for the quick reply, Francis. Yes, I do have those parallel passages resources, but they're not exactly what I'm looking for. Unfortunately, the search query you gave me above doesn't return anything. It doesn't see any <Deuteronomy> within OT quotations. Is this because the OT citations are not stored in the metadata?

This has come up because I want to fill in the blanks for something like: "Jesus' favorite OT book was Deuteronomy because he quoted from it ____ times. The next closest was  _____ with _____ times..."

I could find this out by manually counting in parallel passages, but I'm wondering if there is a search shortcut for this.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 13 2015 2:04 PM

Did you run it as a Basic (not Bible) search?

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