A 2 year release cycle?

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Stephen Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jan 10 2015 9:20 AM

I have seen many complaints about Logos 6 quality etc.  I am sure there are many that are happy with it.  However, in the posts I have seen there it is referenced several times of Faithlife/Logos having moved to a 2 year release cycle.  Is this true?

I ask simply because of cost.  When I feature cross graded from my Logos 5 to Logos 6 it was very expensive. I started with Logos 4 then upgraded to 5 which cost about half as much as buying L4.  Then with this latest upgrade it was almost twice the cost as the minimal upgrade from 4->5.  I keep doing it any way because I think the software and resources are nice and to be honest I like to support strong Christian companies that try to produce a top shelf product.

But I am not a church leader, teacher or staff member.  I would imagine that many of those who fall into that category can expense or have budget to spend on the cost of upgrades and books.  For me that is not the case.  If the upgrade cycle is every two years that will add up very quick.  Yes, I know I do not have to upgrade etc.

Any way, I saw someone else put it another way.  They called Logos a professional tool and compared it to something like Final Cut Pro on the Macs.  Final Cut Pro being the top of the line professional media software and it costs it as well.  That might be a good analogy.  I do not mean to complain, rather express a little concern.  I know there are other options that are cheaper but my feeling is that Logos is the better product and possibly a better company.

thanks

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Levi Durfey | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 9:42 AM

Stephen Smith:

I have seen many complaints about Logos 6 quality etc.  I am sure there are many that are happy with it.  However, in the posts I have seen there it is referenced several times of Faithlife/Logos having moved to a 2 year release cycle.  Is this true?

It appears to be that way:

Logos Bible Software Series X 2.0 Release Date: July, 2003

Logos 3 Release Date: June 2006 (3 years later)

Logos 4 Release Date: 11/3/09  (3 years later)

Logos 5 Release Date: 11/1/12 (3 years later)

Logos 6 Release Date: 10/27/14 (2 years later)

I wish they would stick to a three year schedule, for cost and also for quality control, reasons.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 9:52 AM

Stephen Smith:
I do not mean to complain, rather express a little concern.  I know there are other options that are cheaper but my feeling is that Logos is the better product and possibly a better company.

Your concerns are valid. First, the release of Logos 6 is the first time the cycle as been 2 years. There has not been an official statement, that I am aware of, announcing a change. Most users would prefer it remain as a three year cycle (or even longer!) A three year cycle would give Logos more time to test and prove new features. It would also give users a chance to afford upgrades and resource purchases. 

While I am happy with my Logos 6, I ave no objections to delaying quick releases so we can have better functionality .

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Posts 55
Anne H | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 10:24 AM

Another vote for a 3 year (or more) release cycle!  New customer here and it will probably take me at least that long to figure it all out. Big Smile

Posts 47
Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 10:59 AM

I have had LOGOS since 2002 (I think), and I still dont know fully how to use it all.  I bought the Camp LOGOS 1 and 2 DVDs and learned alot, but it really doesnt get to all the features or show how to put together the big picture like preparing a Sermon or Lesson from scratch type of thing.  Also, I am noticing more comments on forums and even FaithLife's marketing that have alot of language that makes me feel like I need a degree in Computer Science to understand.  "Shop talk" that leaves us novices behind.  I too am growing discouraged with the frequency of the upgrades.  Why not just do sub-versions within the versions.  So V6 this year, then in November or Jan do 6.1, and then a year later 6.2.  All the fixes inbetween could be 6.01, 6.02, etc.  So at least 3 years between versions.  I get the feeling that the problems are not fully worked out in one version before the next is released.  And the Marketing dept. needs to back down some, with the understanding that there will be issues, and the longer a development team can work on the version before its release, the less of those there will be.  Marketing's job is to "sell" it and make it sound like you not only want it, or need it but MUST have it!  If they create that feeling within the customer base, they have suceeded in their task, nevermind if it is true- that is irrelevant to their mission.

I have ranted long enough.  Sorry.  I do so love LOGOS, and want Faithlife groups to work, but it doesnt seem to be there- so the marketing is ahead of performance.  That needs to switch places in chronology, IMHO

Posts 1647
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 11:05 AM

I am hoping that Logos 6 was an exception to the rule of at least three years between releases. If the releases do change to every one or two years, I probably will not upgrade but every two or three releases.

There are a couple of reasons. Even though the engine is "free" you have to pay to get its functionality. It gets expensive quick. With every release, I get excited about all of the new features and then discover that I really don't use them much, if ever. This is probably because of the way that I study and am a layperson with no advanced training (just using Logos to enhance personal studies). For those who depend on Logos for their ministry and studies, I am sure the experience is much different.  Logos 4 was, to me, definitely worth upgrading. Logos 5 corrected a lot of problems that were in version 4, so it was worth it. I am not sure that Logos 6 has made a big enough difference to upgrade every two years or less.

Peace  Smile

Romans 14:19 (NRSV)
19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

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DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 11:15 AM

There are a number of aspects / supporting datasets with regards to Logos that are clearly incomplete and personally I don't think they should have gone to market and asked us to pay for them when they are so incomplete.  Atlas being a primary example. It makes me nervous when I see a company do this and become so focused on sales and marketing over the last few years coupled with the fact they are failing to keep up with maintenance of existing mobile apps and have gone so far in terms of chasing our dollars that they even suggested to us as customers about setting up an online dating service.  These are not marks of a great company But either one struggling financially or one becoming greedy Or one that has taken its eye off the prize of doing what is does best. The move to a two year release seems like a cash grab in simple terms instead of releasing a quality product with the supporting datasets ready to go.  If they were able to keep up with maintenance of the now very diversified range of applications and put out a high quality product then a two year cycle would be fine and affordability would be my issue but they are failing to do this so a two year cycle I believe is wrong.  They have not clearly communicated to us before we purchased how underdeveloped some of the datasets were and the amount of work still to be done on them. Very disappointed on what the leadership of this company now thinks is an acceptable way to treat customers and take us for granted.  They will and should be feeling the pinch of Accordance releasing a Windows version if they keep heading in the direction they are at the moment.  Customers will vote with their wallets.

Posts 752
Tim Hensler | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 11:21 AM

Anne H:
Another vote for a 3 year (or more) release cycle!  New customer here and it will probably take me at least that long to figure it all out.

I've been using Logos since the beginning of version 3 and it still takes me too long to figure each version out, and I have a background in software development and support!  Along with improved quality assurance, I'd like to see improved documentation.  

Materials made available for L6 tell us what the new features and functions can do, but they are light on how to use them and examples of how they can help us study the Bible.  The new {} and <> search syntax is driving me crazy.  (One recent post I saw had a similar search, but in one place the syntax required a colon and another didn't use a colon - not user friendly.)  

I really appreciate the work of the MVPs to help explain and provide examples of these powerful search capabilities (and other features/functions), but whatever info Logos equips the MVPs with isn't enough.  Even the MVPs have to experiment to figure things out.  Surely the software designer and developers know how the new Logos works.  A little more time by them to provide complete documentation (all options, syntax, etc.) with real-world usage examples for Bible study from their scholars in residence would be immensely helpful and would be a tremendous value-add and differentiation for Faithlife and the Logos Bible Software.

Faithlife has a great development and customer service teams.  They need a non-technical Customer Experience (CX) team on board to represent the needs, expectations and experiences of the users so Faithlife can anticipate problems the customers will have with new versions and solve these problems before the software is released.

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Posts 139
Stephen Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 12:01 PM

Yes, three year would be nice. Then I could spend the equivalent money on some stuff in my wishlist.

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 12:09 PM

Disciple of Christ (doc):
 They will and should be feeling the pinch of Accordance releasing a Windows version if they keep heading in the direction they are at the moment.  Customers will vote with their wallets.

Faithlife will swear up and down that their tagged texts are worth so much more... even though many of the texts like the dictionaries are yet tagged properly to integrate into 6. Accordance's InfoPane is fast powerful and a serious challenge to many parts of Logos' passage guide. I am not going to debate the strengths and weaknesses of each program, nor appear to be encouraging people into Accordance's arms. The is without doubt no software that has more book selection than Faithlife, that said Accordance has the best of  what one wants in most library with more than a few precious gems not found in Faithlife. Faithlife may have with 6 tried to put some of Accordance's features into 6 with the Atlas being similar to the theirs. With one major flaw in my mind... Faithlife has made an atlas that in many ways is superior but so large as to be unwieldy I have seen some users here claim that they much prefer ACC atlas because it functions similarly but all on ones machine. Customers will vote but Faithlife will always maintain they have it better.

-Dan

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 6:03 PM

Dan Francis:

Faithlife will swear up and down that their tagged texts are worth so much more... even though many of the texts like the dictionaries are yet tagged properly to integrate into 6.

Dan, I think you have a typo ... the dictionary tagging that is incomplete dates to L4. Wink    Smile

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 6:53 PM

MJ. Smith:
Dan, I think you have a typo ... the dictionary tagging that is incomplete dates to L4. Wink    Smile

Sort of giving them benefit of the doubt.... I still maintain that stable good working L4 for the mac never existed nor all it's promised features fulfilled .... though I have heard them claim different so it seems best to focus only on the current generation of Logos. Logos/Verbum is good software.. 6 has potential to be a major improvement over 5, for me it is faster and seems slightly more stable. Others are finding it far slower and less stable (indeed 2 days ago i could not keep Verbum 6 running more than 7 minutes, but after a computer restart Verbum stabilized).

-Dan

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 7:48 PM

Release cycle is irrelevant. Software is free, you only pay for resources (or so they claim). A number after the word "Logos" is irrelevant. If you want a particular resource, or dataset - you pay for it. So the problem is not with Logos, it is with YOU. Don't want to fork out $2000 every 2 years? DON'T! You don't have to (spend money on Logos), to stay right with God and serve Christ.

It is amazing to me that for years we have been studying the Bible, preaching and doing just fine without all the bells and whistles, but when Logos updates to a new version our eyes get glazed over and we chant "Gotta have it now"

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 7:58 PM

Rick:
There are a couple of reasons. Even though the engine is "free" you have to pay to get its functionality.

Sorry. You have to pay for resources - yes. You DON'T have to pay when a new version is released. You can pay 5 years from now. So ignore the version numbers and pay on a 3 year cycle, if you want. You see - YOU control your spending, not Logos.

Mercedes (or is it a BMW?) is coming out with a new car that has Gorilla glass, that can park itself and does 0-60 in 2.8 seconds. Does it mean I have to buy it when it is released or can I buy it 20 years from now (it will still cost an arm and a leg)?

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 10 2015 8:19 PM

toughski:
You don't have to (spend money on Logos), to stay right with God and serve Christ.

It doesn't hurt though.  Money

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1647
Rick | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 11 2015 6:21 AM

Toughski, your just basically repeating what I said, with different words. I thought I made it pretty clear that I wouldn't upgrade every time a new version was released.

Peace  Smile

Romans 14:19 (NRSV)
19 Let us then pursue what makes for peace and for mutual upbuilding.

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 11 2015 10:06 AM

I think it's good to appreciate the positive side of the issue:  at least next year, we don't have to worry about Logos6 coming out.  New Logos versions are getting progressively more painful.

And additional key benefits:

- By next year, people will be lauding just how good Logos6 is.  'Look ... it has maps!!' So maybe the every-3-years is the 'great version' cycle. 

- They never have the REALLY good sales during new-version year.  I went through the whole L6 rollout pretty sleepily (purchase-wise).  I remember the big master journal that I almost mailed a check to Logos on.  Goodness was that interesting.


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 11 2015 11:32 AM

Denise:

New Logos versions are getting progressively more painful.

Short progression? L4 was painful. L5 & 6 considerably less so ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 11 2015 12:30 PM

Maybe your memory is short (I doubt it), or you're looking at the software specifically.  I remember sitting out in the garage enjoying a late autumn and cracking up on the Logos5/Logos.com portion.  I didn't try it myself, since Opera generally doesn't work well with Logos.  So I had to be up in the stands. 

Given the amount of money Logos had already spent, and the amount the rollout could potentially have brought in, I'd have got a serious lock on the purchase process.  But then, I used to be a CPA, so maybe that confuses the perception.  'Sales'.

The Logos4 struggle I could understand.  I still don't like forced participation and forced downloads. But I can understand a trying time in the move.  Now if I had a Mac, I might view the pain as cumulative.  So a Logos7 might require hospitalization.


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Anthony H | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 11 2015 2:31 PM

Integ:

I wish they would stick to a three year schedule, for cost and also for quality control, reasons.

Yes Yes, OH YES!

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