Messianic Starter Base Package

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David Roberts | Forum Activity | Posted: Thu, Jan 15 2015 2:23 AM

Hi, I noticed you have three types of Base Packages for Lutheran, Pentecostal and even SDA, but not for Messianic/Nazarene Jewish yet.

This movement is experiencing incredibly strong growth in America, Israel and around the world, in a time when many churches are losing members. I'm a youth leader myself, and am currently teaching them Biblical Hebrew, and would like to recommend them all to buy a Logos Starter Package, but none of the Base Package Families are really the right fit for them. There is also a high number of members of other denominations who study Jewish roots in their spare time and some even attend two congregations, Messianic on Saturday, Traditional Church on Sunday.

So I thought I'd make some suggestions for what I think would be an awesome Messianic Starter Base Package. For most denominations/movements, generally only pastors/priests/leaders learn the original languages, not the laity (except for the Orthodox Churches), but this movement is made up of Jews coming to faith in the Messiah and Gentiles interested in the Jewish roots and language. Many Messianic Congregations read from the Torah in Hebrew, some even read Targums. So while other Starter Base Packages leave out many language resources for silver and gold, this group would be heavy on original Semitic languages in a way the other Base Packages aren't. So here's a little wishlist. Thanks for your consideration.

Datasets
English Audio Pronunciations Dataset $9.95
Greek Audio Pronunciations Dataset (Erasmian) $19.95
Greek Audio Pronunciations Dataset (Koine) $0.00
Greek Audio Pronunciations Dataset (Modern) $0.00
Hebrew Audio Pronunciations $49.95
Greek Alphabet Tutor $4.95
Hebrew Alphabet Tutor $4.95
Hebrew Cantillations $4.95
English Bibles
Complete Jewish Bible (CJB) $10.00
English Standard Version (ESV) $10.00
Holy Scriptures: Tree of Life Version (TLV) $17.95
Lexham English Bible (LEB) $0.00
The New Revised Standard Version Bible (NRSV) for the Apocrypha $10.00
English Interlinears
The ESV English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament $19.95
The ESV English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Old Testament $19.95
Lexham English-Greek Reverse Interlinear New Testament $9.95
Lexham English-Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Old Testament
LES English–Greek Reverse Interlinear of the Septuagint $19.95
Hebrew Interlinear
Lexham Hebrew–English Interlinear Bible $99.95
Greek Interlinears
Lexham Greek-English Interlinear New Testament: SBL Edition ?
Lexham Greek-English Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition $49.95
The Greek–Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Septuagint: H. B. Swete Edition, Alternate Texts $9.97
The Greek–Hebrew Reverse Interlinear Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition $9.98
Audio Bibles
ESV Audio Bible $0.00
Lexham English Bible Audio $0.00
Hebrew, Aramaic, Syriac, and Greek Bibles, etc.
Lexham Hebrew Bible with Morphology $49.95
CAL Targums with Targum Lexicon $24.95
The Leiden Peshitta $99.95
Early Bible Translations Collection (15 vols.) English translations of Targums and Peshitta $189.95
Apparatus for the Greek New Testament: SBL Edition $0.00
Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament and Dataset
The Greek New Testament: SBL Edition (SBL) $0.00
The Lexham Clausal Outlines of the Greek New Testament: SBL Edition $0.00
The Lexham Syntactic Greek New Testament: Sentence Analysis $0.00
Lexham English Septuagint $24.95
The Lexham English Septuagint: Alternate Texts $4.97
Lexham Analytical Lexicon of the Septuagint: H.B. Swete Edition $4.98
Harmonies and Parallel Passages
Analytical Outline of the Books of Samuel, Kings, and Chronicles (Crockett) $0.00
Eusebian Canons $28.95
Old Testament Quotations and Allusions in the New Testament
Old Testament Quotes in the New Testament (HCSB) $0.00
Parallel Passages in the Pastoral Epistles (Brannan) $0.00
Study Bibles/Commentaries
The Jewish New Testament Commentary $31.95
A Messianic Commentary: Matthew Presents Yeshua, King Messiah $26.95
The Jewish Study Bible $31.95
Keil and Delitzsch Commentary on the Old Testament (COT) (10 vols.) $119.95
Hebrews Through a Hebrew's Eyes $7.95
Dictionaries
Concise HALOT $31.95
The Lexham Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament  $26.95
Early Church
The Apostolic Fathers: Greek Texts and English Translations $38.00
On Pascha: With the Fragments of Melito and Other Material Related to the Quartodecimans $13.95
Messianic Books
Nazarene Jewish Christianity $19.95
Jewish Believers in Jesus: The Early Centuries $49.99
They Loved the Torah: What Yeshua's First Followers Really Thought About the Law $8.95
Yeshua: A Guide to the Real Jesus and the Original Church $11.95
The Greatest Commandment: How the Sh’ma Leads to More Love in Your Life $11.95
Posts 8601
TCBlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 7:17 AM


David Roberts:
So I thought I'd make some suggestions for what I think would be an awesome Messianic Starter Base Package.
David, This is a great selection. Thanks for putting it together. I wish I could think of a few more to include, but I cannot think of any at the moment.

Yes

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Erwin Stull, Sr. | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 8:21 AM

Wow! David, this is a great suggestion. Yes

And you have done the work. All that Logos/Faithlife has to do, is to package it together. Seems like all that would take them to do, is to use the above resources and give it a name. Smile

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 8:39 AM

Erwin Stull, Sr.:

All that Logos/Faithlife has to do, is to package it together. Seems like all that would take them to do, is to use the above resources and give it a name. Smile

I agree it looks like a great package.

But, presumably, customers would want discount when buying such a package which would probably mean Faithlife having to negotiate with a range of publishers.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 9:36 AM

Graham Criddle:
But, presumably, customers would want discount when buying such a package which would probably mean Faithlife having to negotiate with a range of publishers.
 

Yes, and dynamic pricing, of course.

I'd buy it.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 2:24 PM

Okay folks ... a dose of reality. A Starter package sells for $294.95 base price and is usually discounted 10-15% below that. This represents a value of around $2360 if purchased inidivudally (10-15%). This package has a base cost of $1173.44 or thereabouts - about $1187 short of normal. In short a very bad deal.  You need to work on getting many more Messianic products in production and try promoting a bundle rather than base package. Good luck.

Brought to you by your friendly, realistic local logician who just got this really cool book on meta-argumentation which must belong in some base package.Wink

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Rayner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 4:55 PM

MJ. Smith:
Brought to you by your friendly, realistic local logician who just got this really cool book on meta-argumentation which must belong in some base package.Wink

How about a Philosophy base package?  You could request your meta-argumentation book there. (Of course, "philosophy" is probably too wide a category... I'm sure somebody other than me could think of a range of varying philosophical base packages)...

(Also, I'd really like to see a non-Messianic Jewish base package, but I am guessing that the apparent absence of non-Messianic Jews from these forums (hardly a surprise, but kind of a shame) means that Jewish literature is likely to end up elsewhere other than Logos.)

Posts 161
David Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 5:02 PM

MJ. Smith:

Okay folks ... a dose of reality. A Starter package sells for $294.95 base price and is usually discounted 10-15% below that. This represents a value of around $2360 if purchased inidivudally (10-15%). This package has a base cost of $1173.44 or thereabouts - about $1187 short of normal. In short a very bad deal.  You need to work on getting many more Messianic products in production and try promoting a bundle rather than base package. Good luck.

Brought to you by your friendly, realistic local logician who just got this really cool book on meta-argumentation which must belong in some base package.Wink



I really appreciate your reply. There were many other resources I would have loved to have added, but I wasn't sure just how much Logos would be prepared (could afford) to add due to the demands of publishers. Again, this was never intended to be the complete package, but rather to highlight what some of the important features might be in that package.

One item I wasn't sure they would agree to, but I think would be a perfect match for the Messianic movement is:

The Qumran Biblical Dead Sea Scrolls Database $179.95 (because these texts are closest to what the first Jerusalem Believers used)

There's some other things too.

The Earliest Life of Christ: The Diatessaron of Tatian $52.95 (because it's early and also used a Jewish gospel)

Commentary on the New Testament from the Talmud and Midrash (3vols.) $159.95 (background and context is everything!)

Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus (4 vols.) $58.99 (because the anti-missionaries target Messianic Jews, and they need to be prepared to defend the Messiahship of Jesus)

Dictionary of the Targumim, the Talmud Babli and Yerushalmi, and the Midrashic Literature $89.95 (cause they spoke Aramaic and Hebrew)

The Ecclesiastical History (4 vols.) $29.95 (because there's important information about the Jewish Believers within this work)

Life and Works of St. Irenaeus of Lyons (5 vols.) $79.95 (because Nazarenes shared a lot of beliefs with the Eastern Church, being based in Aleppo, and Papias would meet with the Jewish elders compiling his "Exposition of the Sayings of the Lord". Irenaeus being disciple of Polycarp who was close with Papias, makes his writings vital to consider)

The Temple: Its Ministry and Services as They Were at the Time of Jesus Christ $22.95 (because they were daily in the temple, Acts 21)

J. N. D. Kelly’s Early Christian Doctrines and Creeds (2 vols.) $74.95 (because we have attestation from various bishops that the Nazarene Jews only differed in keeping the law, but not in Christology or Orthodoxy. Jerome said in Letter 75 that the Jewish Believers "in Christ, were anathematized by the fathers for this one error, that they mixed up the ceremonies of the law with the gospel of Christ," and there are many other statements like this, so Messianics should know about the earliest doctrines and creeds of the faith.)

Bede’s Ecclesiastical History (4 vols.) $32.95 (He says documents some realities about Easter and other things that Messianics would appreciate)

Select Works of Franz Delitzsch (2 vols.) $44.95

Obviously since Hebrew is such an essential feature of the Messianic movement. All Hebrew resources: Grammars, lexicons and other educational learning tools would be essential.

I'm not asking Logos to even make new resources (and thus spend extra money) for this base package, but to just apply their already existing numerous books into a starter package for the masses. We really need this. Too many are getting their theology off the internet and are reading bogus information, but if they had their own Logos Messsianic Base Package, they could actually do some real serious study with quality works. There is A LOT of people who would definitely buy this.

Best regards, and thank you so much for your consideration! Any thanks to everyone for all the replies.

p.s. The most important book by far in my opinion is the Lexham Hebrew Interlinear. Most don't know how to fully parse the text, but that resource gives a Hebrew learner everything they need to help them read the text. Also if all I had to do was further compile a list till it reached $2360 for Logos to put them together. I would do it in a heart beat! :p 

Shalom in our Lord Yeshua! 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 5:05 PM

Noet appears to be aiming for the Judaic market ... and the philosophy as well. As if one could have Christian apologetics without logic ... oops there are a few who practice that Sad

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 591
Rayner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 5:51 PM

MJ. Smith:

Noet appears to be aiming for the Judaic market ... and the philosophy as well. As if one could have Christian apologetics without logic ... oops there are a few who practice that Sad

Big Smile What is the logic behind Noet?  I mean, if I wanted to read philosophical texts, I'd want them in Logos to place alongside the Scripture, commentaries and dictionaries etc.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 5:55 PM

Like Verbum, Noet is fully compatible with Logos ... its marketing however is directed to an academic market especially classics, philosophy, Judaica etc. that can clearly benefit from Logos language and library features.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 3938
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 8:22 PM

I wonder if there is anything on vyrso that would fit the package that could be pulled into Logos?

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 4772
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 10:15 PM

Despite earlier voices of approval, I find this suggestion in its specifics to be a real snoozer. 

There are many problems with this idea, and probably the most vexing to cope with is the inaccuracy factor. The term "Messianic" is applied to two divergent groups, with a few cosmetic similarities and vast differences of belief and practice. Messianic Judaism, which is probably the concept that most "non-Messianic" Christians have in mind as their knee-jerk default when hearing the term "Messianic" is a different creature entirely from Messianic Christianity. Then, there is a third group, which stumbles around in one or the other or both of these groups and haven't got a foggy clue that there is a difference or what makes them constitutionally incompatible. I, for one, would hope to never see a "Messianic" package, since it would be marketed to one or both of these groups when I don't believe either one has a legitimate right to refer to themselves as Messianic.

In either case, there isn't remotely enough material in Logos to make a legitimate Messianic Base Package anything other than a far-fetched pipe dream.

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Jan 16 2015 11:49 PM

Super.Tramp:

This looked a surprisingly good deal for me with the dynamic pricing so I bought it right away

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 161
David Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 17 2015 12:36 AM

David Paul:
Despite earlier voices of approval, I find this suggestion in its specifics to be a real snoozer.


Not everyone will be interested in the history of the Jerusalem Church and their migration to Pella, and then to Beroea (Aleppo) in Syria, but that's ok. Logos has no problem meeting the needs of different communities.

David Paul:
There are many problems with this idea, and probably the most vexing to cope with is the inaccuracy factor. The term "Messianic" is applied to two divergent groups, with a few cosmetic similarities and vast differences of belief and practice. Messianic Judaism, which is probably the concept that most "non-Messianic" Christians have in mind as their knee-jerk default when hearing the term "Messianic" is a different creature entirely from Messianic Christianity. Then, there is a third group, which stumbles around in one or the other or both of these groups and haven't got a foggy clue that there is a difference or what makes them constitutionally incompatible. I, for one, would hope to never see a "Messianic" package, since it would be marketed to one or both of these groups when I don't believe either one has a legitimate right to refer to themselves as Messianic.


Someone recently said this here in the forum:

tommyball1:

Please remember the Logos forums are for the discussion of Logos resources, and products. It is NOT for discussing the relevancy, quality, orthodoxy, theological relevancy of anyone or anything. Please leave those discussions in http://christiandiscourse.com

Thanks!



David Paul:
In either case, there isn't remotely enough material in Logos to make a legitimate Messianic Base Package anything other than a far-fetched pipe dream.


That may be what you wish would be the case, but Logos has far more than enough for a Starter Package, but you have to ask yourself. Would you prefer that those who you say 'haven't got a foggy clue' to remain uneducated or for them to learn from quality scholarly works? Sometimes people can realise they've been wrong through good persistent study, something that having a Logos library would help with, moving them away from sacred namism, back to justification by faith and a solid belief in the trinity and the deity of Christ, but that decision is Logos' to make.

I just want to come back to why I brought this up in the first place. The youth I'm responsible for desperately need an affordable starter package that meets their needs and I know such a package would sell incredibly well. There would be many Messianic congregations where every single family would buy Logos, just because of how necessary learning the Hebrew language is in the congregations.


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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 17 2015 12:55 AM

David Roberts:

The youth I'm responsible for desperately need an affordable starter package that meets their needs and I know such a package would sell incredibly well. There would be many Messianic congregations where every single family would buy Logos, just because of how necessary learning the Hebrew language is in the congregations.

If this is true you are taking the wrong approach = a very long approach that will take years to reach your goal - consider the Restorationists. With a minimum of 10 people or so (I don't know the general limit) you can get an on-site demonstration and a customized package to get your congregation started. If you can pull several congregations from the region together you can pull together a sweet, inexpensive place for everyone in the congregation to start. As they add resources, you build the market for the more traditional base packages. If, like the SDA, you can get an official denominational buy-in you might be able to do even better at getting resources added. Contact Logos for info re: your regional representative.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 161
David Roberts | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 17 2015 1:42 AM

MJ. Smith:

If this is true you are taking the wrong approach = a very long approach that will take years to reach your goal - consider the Restorationists. With a minimum of 10 people or so (I don't know the general limit) you can get an on-site demonstration and a customized package to get your congregation started. If you can pull several congregations from the region together you can pull together a sweet, inexpensive place for everyone in the congregation to start. As they add resources, you build the market for the more traditional base packages. If, like the SDA, you can get an official denominational buy-in you might be able to do even better at getting resources added. Contact Logos for info re: your regional representative.



Thank you so much for your incredible helpful reply! I didn't know that what you spoke of was even an option! If you don't mind, is there a place we could chat online about this? I'd like to ask you a little more before I talk to Logos. I have a faithlife account. If you'd rather not, that's completely fine. I just want to make sure I've understood you properly.

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