I'm back to L3, leaving L4 for I don't know how long…

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Posts 54
Hans Vel Tromp | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jan 18 2010 6:38 AM

Why I'm I posting this? I really don't know, but I feel I need to express and share my thoughts, for what worth it is. First of all, my English is not my native language, so that explains strange spelling and/or grammar. I'm a Dutch reverend, working in South Africa to support (young) isiZulu speaking churches in KwaZulu-Natal.

From the beginning of the release of L4, I was exited and anxious to explore and learn the new way of doing my Bible study and research-program with Logos 4. I also bought the experimental Mac-crossover, because I thought this is what I needed (I still do).

As I have seen many of you guys are happy with it and the program works out to be exactly that for you. Unfortunately I'm not sharing this experience. My original experience with Logos goes way back, but became serious when the SESB came out. From that moment my Library started to grow and is still growing (I've still severals books under contract).

Yes Logos is a good working tool in order to prepare my sermons. I use it to prepare my sermon lessons for lay-preachers, which I server here in South Africa. It even becomes a "personal" study-tool, if I take the time to read the books I acquired recently.

Until now I've tried to find my way through Logos 4, even because I want to use the iPhone App, which is really beautiful. To be honest, to me the whole integration is the way to go, as far as I can see. Still, I decided to quit and return to L3 and I'm willing to justify my decision.

Despite the beauty of L4, I made up my mind and return to L3. To prevent a very long post, I just sum-up some of my motives (no order of importance):

  1. I was troubled by the problems which I encountered. When reading the forum, I discovered that the guys of Logos did a tremendous work, but still have a lot to do.
    I'm not sure whether I was aware of this situation when I bought and started to discover L4. But for me it was disappointing to learn that the SESB-functions needs attention. The same can be said of notes, recourses — like the Dutch NBV — and others issues. 
  2. The second issue, which became problematic are the downloads. We face huge downloads. An update can easily be more that 500MB! Maybe this is not a problem for people with ADSL and a fair-use contract, but not so in my situation.
    I'm depending on G3 Internet of which I can load 2Gb a month (ZAR 280=$ 50). I will not argue about the Mac-cross downloads, they once were almost 2GB! No insights, no control. 
  3. Than I miss the look and feel of Logos 3, to me L3 is obvious and clear for the tasks I have to do. Now in L4 I've to dig myself through some kind of a newspaper. It presents me all kinds of articles, issues and person(s) I didn't ask for. I know, I need to learn, but Logos is not my hobby, it is a working tool. For now, I've spend too much time to the grasp the idea of the program. It is really a beautiful program, But I'm getting lost time after time. 
  4. If we take point two and three together, we also discover that the new home page is depends on the Internet as well. Why? I don't want it. How do I get rid of all those interesting, but not relevant information for me? 
  5. An other disappointment was the beautiful Logos concept on the iPhone. I understood that the Synchronisation is restricted to buyers of Logos Base Packgers. For me, I bought the SESB as a package and besides that I always bought only books I wanted to have. At the end spending even more that base package buyers. But when I want to load the SESB Hebrew Bible, my iPhone says: "Error loading book. You do not have permission to access this book." Well for me, an other feature/advantage disappear.

Guys, I know, that all new thing needs time. But the disadvantage I encounter are too big to overcome.
The three main problems are:
the incomplete state of L4 (did I mentioned that I really think it is a beautiful program?),
the usage of data and
the time consuming learning curve.

I simply have no time to dig into all kind of solutions with even more instruction video's to download. To be honest, why are there instruction video's if the program is self-explanatory? I think I better wait until the Windows as well as the OS X releases are really interchangeable. Sad but true. I know on one day L3 will not be supported any more, lets see what will come than…

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 6:48 AM

Hans Vel Tromp:
Sad but true. I know on one day L3 will not be supported any more, lets see what will come than…

Hans, I think you will see us arguing about L5 before there is a hint of Logos dropping support for L3. Stopping development, and dropping support are two totally different things. I appreciate your issues, and the nice thing is that you have that option of staying at L3 until L4 meets your needs (if ever). I would suggest you still hang around the L3 forum, I really don't see that platform dieing anytime soon, and it has nothing to do with the viability of L4. I think your post is important, because it shows that there is a choice.

 

 

Posts 5625
Todd Phillips | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 7:00 AM

Hans Vel Tromp:
If we take point two and three together, we also discover that the new home page is depends on the Internet as well. Why? I don't want it. How do I get rid of all those interesting, but not relevant information for me? 

I agree the downloads can be a problem on internet accounts with a capped download.  You can set "Use Internet" to "No" in the Program Settings window and only turn it on when you are ready to check for updates (requires a Logos restart to take effect). Just ask Dave Hooton, that's what he does (I think he also has a 2GB cap).

"Show home page at startup" can be unchecked in the Customize menu at the bottom, and then it will automatically load your last layout at startup instead of the home page.  I use it that way and it gets me right back to where I was studying when I shut it down last.

Wiki Links: Enabling Logging / Detailed Search Help - MacBook Pro (2014), ThinkPad E570

Posts 5337
Kevin Becker | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 8:15 AM

Hans, I appreciate your situation. It sounds like, for your purposes, Libronix is better for you. However, keep in mind that that SESB package was not put together and developed by Logos. It was developed by the German Bible Society and the Bible Society of the Netherlands. In fact at the recent bible-software shootout the SESB package was given a separate presentation even though it ran on the Libronix engine. All of this is to say I hope that the SESB special capabilities are updated to function with the Logos 4 engine.

Posts 2745
Bohuslav Wojnar | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 9:01 AM

Hans, I totally understand your reasons to go back to L3. SESB is a big reason. I dare however to believe you will be back in Logos 4 after all the addins (SESB and other) will be up and running in Logos 4. Logos 4 is just too good to stay out of it for too long Smile The other issues are possible to solve (switching off Internet etc.) as other guys explained already. God bless you in your wonderful ministry to those great people in Africa. See you back soon... Smile

Bohuslav

Posts 2793
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 9:22 AM

Hans, I am sure Logos appreciates you sharing your concerns with L4.  I personally appreciate you sharing your concerns in both a respectful and mature manner.  Thank you.

Blessings.

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 178
Sir Maru | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 9:47 AM

Hans,

You can set up a layout for use and only go to that page when done.  Also, you can customize Home Page NEVER to be used at startup.  Also, at Settings uncheck "Automatically Download Updates."

Then, you can request updates from Logos on disk every 6 months and never use the Internet again.

Posts 225
Michael Birney | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 12:28 PM

I live where we have a capped internet access also, at least at home (satellite isp), so I understand the issues this can raise.  

I have a second option and update my laptop where I have free downloads, and then take that home and transfer it.  If I didn't have this option, I would just set it to not use the internet, and ask for updates every 6 months or so.

If L3 works for you better than L4, then stick with it for now.   

Posts 3747
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 3:53 PM

Blessings to you, Joe.

Your posts are blessings to me, too.

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

Posts 81
Daniel R. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 10:06 PM

I just wanted to add my appreciation for Hans' post. I believe that his reasons for switching back to L3 are very legitimate, and sadly, not too rare of late.

I am glad that you posted, Hans, as I believe that the good people of Logos need this kind of feed back to know where to prioritize there efforts.

I am praying right now for your ministry, that God would grant you all that you need for His glory.

May the Lord bless you and keep you.

Posts 54
Hans Vel Tromp | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 11:07 PM

Hans Vel Tromp:

Why I'm I posting this? I really don't know, but I feel I need to express and share my thoughts…

Guys, I think that I received an answer on my rhetorical question. Thank you all for your response, it overwhelmed me a bit, but also encouraged me. Thanks for your useful tips, I'm shore I'll follow those up. L3 will be my working tool, but maybe I should consider to explore the L4 in my personal readings. Just for not loosing the feeling, thanks to you.

Thanks also for you spiritual support, prayers are the foundations of our work. To paraphrase (was it Dr McCoy?): "It's mission, guys, but not as we know it…"

Last night I was wondering what it was, what triggered me. At the end I conclude is was the huge impact the Apple HIG has on my computer behavior. Intuitive, flawless and with hardly knowledge of what the "problems" of the developers are. Not so within many other operating systems. I guess it's a part and parcel of personal interests. My hope is that, now Logos is also developing on the OS X platform, these guidelines will set the direction for any Logos development. Because my conviction is: "Software should understand the user, not the user should understand the software."

(Though the reality is that this is not an either/or situation, probably they both need to understand one an other. I know…)

Posts 27039
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 18 2010 11:17 PM

Hans Vel Tromp:
Software should understand the user, not the user should understand the software.

Fully agree!

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 4508
Robert Pavich | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 19 2010 6:55 AM

Joe Miller:
Hans, I am sure Logos appreciates you sharing your concerns with L4.  I personally appreciate you sharing your concerns in both a respectful and mature manner.  Thank you.

I second that...God bless you, Hans.

Robert Pavich

For help go to the Wiki: http://wiki.logos.com/Table_of_Contents__

Posts 3747
BillS | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 19 2010 3:34 PM

Hans Vel Tromp:
"Software should understand the user, not the user should understand the software."

Hi Hans,

In Bradley's post in this thread (http://community.logos.com/forums/p/10026/79537.aspx#79537), he gives a link to a wikipedia definition of Release Early, Release Often. That development methodology (which Logos is using) is aimed squarely at ensuring that REAL user requirements drive the evolution of the software, & that over time, the software will demonstrate it understands the user--not vice versa.

Hans Vel Tromp:
maybe I should consider to explore the L4 in my personal readings. Just for not loosing the feeling,

I'd encourage you to follow through on this. Stay in touch with the community on the forums, also. They care whether you succeed... and you'll be able to follow & even make input on the direction of the software, ensuring over the long haul that it ends up understanding you...

Many blessings to you!

Bill

Grace & Peace,
Bill


MSI GF63 8RD, I-7 8850H, 32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 2TB HDD, NVIDIA GTX 1050Max
iPhone 12 Pro Max 512Gb
Fire 10HD 64GB 7th Gen

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