Are There Any Books In Logos For Apologetics To Defend The Trinity Against Non Trinitarians That Throw 1 Corinthians 11:3 At Them?

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James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Jan 17 2015 5:24 PM

This part of the verse in bold. "But I want you to understand that the head of every man is Christ, the head of a wife is her husband, and the head of Christ is God."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 17 2015 5:30 PM

I'm indexing at the moment but the Search Trinity NEAR <1 Cor 11:3> should show you want you have in your library.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 17 2015 7:06 PM

Wow, I've never heard that verse used in that way. Usually it's used to argue for male headship in the home, and/or for "Subordinationism" within the Trinity. See Subordinationism in the Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, 2nd ed. It's a position that was condemned by numerous church councils but continues in one form or another to this day in some parts.

I would say that the best thing is to make the case that all of Scripture must be taken as a whole, rather than picking and choosing one verse here or there to interpret in a way that contradicts other parts of Scripture. Then you can look at what the general overall witness of Scripture is regarding the Trinity and go from there. In fact, there is testimony to a three-personed God right in the book of 1 Corinthians, in the very next chapter in fact, and Paul is not likely to be contradicting himself.

As for the search that MJ suggested, I tried it in my library and came up with so much that it was hard to wade through. But I shifted my search to <1 Corinthians 11:3> "against the trinity" and found one interesting snippet:

"A final point of interest in 1 Cor. 11:3 is the way in which Paul subordinates Christ to God. We have already discussed this aspect of Paul’s Christology in 3:21–23 and will see it again in 15:28. Passages like these became strong bones of contention in the debates over the Trinity in the 300s, for the Trinity implies that Christ is equal to God. Those who argued against the Trinity used verses like these to emphasize the distinction between God the Father and Christ."

Kenneth Schenck, 1 & 2 Corinthians: A Commentary for Bible Students (Indianapolis, IN: Wesleyan Publishing House, 2006), 156.

So perhaps you should do some research on Subordinationism in your library and see if that helps your quest. For example, a search for <1 Corinthians 11:3> subordinationism in my library found this in the article on "Head" in the Dictionary of Paul and His Letters (a much better deal as part of the Essential IVP Reference Collection Version 3):

"The contemporary desire to find in 1 Corinthians 11:3 a basis for the subordination of the Son to the Father has ancient roots. In response to such subordinationism, church fathers argued vehemently that for Paul head had meant “source.” Athanasius (Syn. Armin. 26.3.35; Anathema 26. Migne PG 26, 740B), Cyril of Alexandria (De Recte Fide ad Pulch. 2.3, 268; De Recte Fide ad Arcadiam 1.1.5.5(2). 63.), Basil (PG 30.80.23.), Theodore of Mopsuestia (Eccl. Theol. 1.11.2–3;2.7.1) and even Eusebius (Eccl. Theol. 1.11.2–3; 2.7.1.) were quick to recognize the danger of an interpretation of 1 Corinthians 11:3 which could place Christ in a subordinate position relative to the Father. In view of Scripture ascribing coequality of Christ with the Father (Jn 1:1–3; 10:30; 14:9, 11; 16:15; 17:11, 21), John Chrysostom declared that only a heretic would understand Paul’s use of “head” to mean “chief” or “authority over.” Rather one should understand the term as implying “absolute oneness and cause and primal source” (PG 61.214, 216; see Christology).

Gerald F. Hawthorne, Ralph P. Martin, and Daniel G. Reid, eds., Dictionary of Paul and His Letters (Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 1993), 377.

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 17 2015 9:41 PM

You may want to review: logosres:gs-jbmw-06;ref=VolumeNumberPage.V_6,_N_1,_p_11;off=3993

Jacob Hantla
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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 17 2015 9:50 PM

Also:

This passage played an important role in patristic discussions of the doctrine of the Trinity. Specifically, v. 3 was used by heretics to argue that Christ was inferior to the Father. Chrysostom pointed out that the term “head” must be understood not in terms of a consistent level of distinction, since God and Christ are infinitely superior to us and the relationship between men and women (or husbands and wives) cannot be marked by such an infinite distinction. He points out that it would be absurd to think that the relationship between Christ and God and/or that which applies between the man and the woman is the measure of the other relationships. Rather, although the language used for each relationship is the same, the precise nature of the relationship is determined “according to the occasion.”29 (Ciampa, Roy E., and Brian S. Rosner. The First Letter to the Corinthians. The Pillar New Testament Commentary. Grand Rapids, MI; Cambridge, U.K.: William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, 2010.) referencing logosres:npnf12;ref=Page.p_150

also,

From Against Eunomias

If the head of the “man is Christ, and the head of Christ is God”, and man is not of one substance with Christ, Who is God (for man is not God), but Christ is of one substance with God (for He is God) therefore God is not the head of Christ in the same sense as Christ is the head of man. The natures of the creature and the creative Godhead do not exactly coincide. God is head of Christ, as Father; Christ is head of us, as Maker. (cited in Pierce, Ronald W., and Rebecca Merrill Groothuis. Discovering Biblical Equality: Complementarity without Hierarchy. Downers Grove, IL: InterVarsity Press, 2005.)

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James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 17 2015 10:10 PM

Thanks for the suggestion guys. God Bless you all always forever!

James

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 18 2015 6:38 AM

James,

I don't know how to make a link to a reference in a resource like some have done here.  However, I would also point you to Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica.  In Part 1, Question 27 has his Treatise on the Trinity.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 18 2015 6:49 AM

James Hiddle:

Thanks for the suggestion guys. God Bless you all always forever!

James

Most good systematic theologies will have a discussion on the Trinity as well. That's where I would start. My guess is that you have some of these already (depending on your base package).

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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James Hiddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 18 2015 10:03 AM

Steve:

James,

I don't know how to make a link to a reference in a resource like some have done here.  However, I would also point you to Thomas Aquinas' Summa Theologica.  In Part 1, Question 27 has his Treatise on the Trinity.

Thanks for the suggestion Steve. God Bless you and everyone else always forever!

James

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Floyd Johnson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 18 2015 1:53 PM

Rather than trying to defend "The Trinity", it might be easier to defend each of these five statement which, essentially, define what we mean by "The Trinity":

  1. There is only one God
  2. The Father is God
  3. Jesus is God
  4. The Holy Spirit is God
  5. No other being or entity has the characteristics of God

Blessings,
Floyd

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 18 2015 2:32 PM

The Trinity is a mystery, we can get glimpses but i am not sure anyone can understand it fully. I like the illustration of water... Water can and especially today does exist in all 3 states at once.... all is H20 be it liquid water, ice, or water vapour. although this is a poor example for some it can help explain the concept of the Trinity.

-Dan

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 18 2015 2:42 PM

The best explanation I've ever heard for why it is not a contradiction for both "God is One" and "God is Three Persons" to be simultaneously true is by Jeremy Begbie, a British theologian/musician who uses the arts, in this case music, to explore and communicate theological ideas. His insight here is both brilliant and simple at once:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t2u20RxqPvo 

He elaborates more on it here (diversity in simplicity):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z-QZgH8-64g 

Here is Begbie going on with more of his musical-theological brilliance: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UlR3bOsoAdA

Logos carries one of his books, Resounding Truth: Christian Wisdom in the World of Music, and there is a bit on the Trinity in there.

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Xegesis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 18 2015 2:47 PM

Dan Francis:

The Trinity is a mystery, we can get glimpses but i am not sure anyone can understand it fully. I like the illustration of water... Water can and especially today does exist in all 3 states at once.... all is H20 be it liquid water, ice, or water vapour. although this is a poor example for some it can help explain the concept of the Trinity.

-Dan

While existing in all 3 states at once each state doesn't encompass the fullness of the H2O.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 18 2015 4:39 PM

I once heard a candidate in his ordination exam answer a question about the Trinity by saying "The more you talk about the Trinity, the more likely you are to speak heresy." (It's probably a quote from someone else.)

There are some things about God that have analogies to the created reality we know, and other things that don't. All analogies tend toward modalism on the one hand or tri-theism on the other. IMHO, the best we can do is report what we find in Scripture, and recognize that Who God is, is bigger than human minds can comprehend.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 18 2015 4:39 PM

Xegesis:
While existing in all 3 states at once each state doesn't encompass the fullness of the H2O.

So very true... all examples break down because these things be it an egg (shell/yolk/white), a shamrock or any of a number of things. H20 is simply an example of one substance existing in three states. An egg has three parts as a shamrock has 3 leaves per stem. The triangle again is another example it may have 3 equal sides. The point is as useful as any example may seem nothing is God but God, God has a unique nature. I am thankful for the revelation in the Bible and the many talented theologians. But our understanding of God has been called the equivalent to an ameba's understanding of a human. Thankfully for us God can communicate to us unlike us to an ameba.

-Dan

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Deacon Steve | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 18 2015 6:08 PM

Although it is challenging (to say the least) to define the Trinity, the dogma is best approached from the perspective of relationship (as Floyd begins):

      - The Trinity is One,

      - The divine person are really distinct from one another,

      - The divine persons are relative to one another.

Sacred scripture is the place to start.  Analogies based in the material indeed break down (as Rich and Dan point

out).

https://www.logos.com/product/17215/catechism-of-the-catholic-church

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Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 2:05 AM

Rosie Perera:
As for the search that MJ suggested, I tried it in my library and came up with so much that it was hard to wade through.

In Logos 6 the most economical search of All Resources is:

trinity WITHIN {Milestone <Bible 1 Cor 11:3>}

  --> mainly in commentaries/notes, but also in monographs with bible milestones.

Dave
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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 21 2015 3:46 PM

Dave Hooton:

Rosie Perera:
As for the search that MJ suggested, I tried it in my library and came up with so much that it was hard to wade through.

In Logos 6 the most economical search of All Resources is:

trinity WITHIN {Milestone <Bible 1 Cor 11:3>}

  --> mainly in commentaries/notes, but also in monographs with bible milestones.

This is a very effective search. Thank you!

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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