ALWAYS include page numbers in ALL resources

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Francis | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jan 19 2015 1:18 AM

I know that this has been said before but it really needs to change. I encountered yet again today the kind of problem that can result when a resource is not built with page numbers (although all print editions have page numbers). I am reading in the introduction of the NA28 and run into "the use of the * asterix, see p. 85). Of course, nothing happens when clicking on the 85 because there are no page numbers in many Logos Bibles (and in some dictionaries). Real pain ensued as I sought to find the location referred to. I actually did not and had to manage some other way (time-wasting and frustration alert!). This happens in dictionaries too, when there is a cross-reference to a page number that one is unable to follow.

Besides this problem of navigation, it is also a problem for referencing. When you read a lengthy article and quote from it, it is simply not very handy to only have "Dictionary So-and-So. The Article I read, pages 100-1000). I exaggerate a bit to make my point: a reference is made to point a reader to where to find a citation. Just referencing that it is found somewhere in an article is not good enough.

Really, it would be simpler if ALL resources had page numbers included ALWAYS.

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DHG | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 1:41 AM

Yes

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Kevin Maples | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 4:14 AM

Francis:
Really, it would be simpler if ALL resources had page numbers included ALWAYS.
 YesYesYesYesYes

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Daniel Bender | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 4:26 AM

YesYes

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 4:33 AM

Francis:

I know that this has been said before but it really needs to change. (...)

Really, it would be simpler if ALL resources had page numbers included ALWAYS.

Francis,

while is seems Faithlife may need to correct this one link in the NA28 introduction (hope you reported it with the typo functionality), it seems your popular general request is about ten years late:

Kyle G. Anderson:

Sometime around the mid-to-late 2000's we began adding page milestones to all new books.

(my emphasis) some exceptions may apply, see details at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/99191/685272.aspx#685272 

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 5:26 AM

NB.Mick:
it seems your popular general request is about ten years late

Thanks for the link, Mick (first or last name?). It does provide useful information. 

I don't know where the process is at as far as other resources are concerned because I don't remember the last resource in which I encountered this before the NA28 and so, when it was published (before or after "mid-to-late 2000's"). But in any case, it needs to be done for the NA28 which has just come out recently.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 5:42 AM

Francis:
Thanks for the link, Mick (first or last name?).

Sometime back in time, it was "Newbie Mick" Geeked

BTW: I agree with your original suggestion. Page numbers would be a valuable addition to many resources.

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Levi Durfey | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 10:01 AM

Francis:
Really, it would be simpler if ALL resources had page numbers included ALWAYS.

Yes

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Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 10:23 AM

Yes

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

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Kyle G. Anderson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 10:50 AM

Ahh...you left out my qualifying statement:

I hope I can shed some light on the mystery of "missing" page numbers:

  1. We don't include page milestones in Vyrso resources.
  2. Back in the dark ages of Logos, it was standard practice to not provide page milestones. I wasn't around then and am not able to comment on the rationale. I could speculate but I don't think that would be very helpful.
  3. Sometime around the mid-to-late 2000's we began adding page milestones to all new books. There are some exceptions: books that have never been published in print do not have page milestones (for example a Logos Mobile Education course), cases where we receive special files from a publisher and these files do not correspond with the print version available (this is very rare and I can't think of an example.), and where page numbering is grossly inconsistent across versions (e.g. page numbers in Bibles wouldn't be very helpful, especially when the Bible milestone is already present).
  4. We try to add page milestones to those older books that are missing page milestones if and when we update the resource. This is dependent on a few important criteria: 1) we need to have access to the print. In some cases this has proved very difficult. 2) The version we produced must correspond exactly with the print resource available.
  5. Naturally we would like to have all of our library updated and are slowly working through the backlog. There are a number of factors that weigh heavily on the speed of that process.

This is only a brief summary and I hope it helps clarify things some. Let me know if you have any more questions.

_____________________

And as a follow-up: the "missing" page milestones in the NA28 GBS edition was not a mistake. It has been our practice to not add page milestones to Bibles that cover the entire Bible, all of the New Testament or all of the New Testament. I understand why have page numbers to the introduction to of NA28 GBS edition would be valuable. I'm going to look into what it would take to add page milestones to the front matter of resources like that Bible.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 11:03 AM

Kyle G. Anderson:
And as a follow-up: the "missing" page milestones in the NA28 GBS edition was not a mistake. It has been our practice to not add page milestones to Bibles that cover the entire Bible, all of the New Testament or all of the New Testament. I understand why have page numbers to the introduction to of NA28 GBS edition would be valuable. I'm going to look into what it would take to add page milestones to the front matter of resources like that Bible.

Great! There are introductory articles or appendices in various types of Bibles that can result in the same need. Does putting in page numbers add a lot of work to a book production?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 4:01 PM

Francis:

Really, it would be simpler if ALL resources had page numbers included ALWAYS.

But I have books in dead-tree format that don't have page numbers as well as e-books that have never been paginated. So it might be simpler but not accurate. On books that have standard reference notations - Bibles, Church Fathers, Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scolls etc. I see no reason to have page numbers

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 4:27 PM

MJ. Smith:
On books that have standard reference notations - Bibles, Church Fathers, Apocrypha, Dead Sea Scolls etc. I see no reason to have page numbers

Except in the front matter, where it would sometimes be helpful for citations. But really, we should all (including professors and even PhD committees) be willing to accept the new standards for citing digital resources. Fewer and fewer scholars will absolutely need to go find the print edition if it's not a print-only resource that they're following up in a footnote. At this point is almost always easier and faster (though not yet necessarily less expensive) to access a digital version. Soon will come the time when it will be cheaper too. I long for the day when we can subscribe to a global digital library membership that would give us free access to digital versions of any resource we can find in WorldCat that has been digitized. No more need for Inter Library Loan. Just borrow it digitally and get the info you need right away.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 10:32 PM

MJ. Smith:
I have books in dead-tree format that don't have page numbers as well as e-books that have never been paginated. So it might be simpler but no accurate.

True.

Rosie Perera:
Except in the front matter, where it would sometimes be helpful for citations.

Yes

Rosie Perera:
But really, we should all (including professors and even PhD committees) be willing to accept the new standards for citing digital resources.

There are ample means of documenting digital resources that reflect their digitization, but I wonder whether page numbers should still be needed as the easiest way to find references across platforms and versions. Quotations can be searched in order to locate them (introducing an extra step for the reader). However, referenced paraphrases or allusions cannot be found that way. This is the ongoing problem of digital formats: the lack of standardization. Example of this can happen if someone uses a reference using a kindle "location". You have the book in logos and can't find it (or it's a pain to find). Sometimes indexes at the end of books can help with that, but you must admit, it's more complicated than just straight page numbers, a well-established and simple way of telling others where to find things...

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 10:51 PM

Francis:
There are ample means of documenting digital resources that reflect their digitization, but I wonder whether page numbers should still be needed as the easiest way to find references across platforms and versions. Quotations can be searched in order to locate them (introducing an extra step for the reader). However, referenced paraphrases or allusions cannot be found that way. This is the ongoing problem of digital formats: the lack of standardization. Example of this can happen if someone uses a reference using a kindle "location". You have the book in logos and can't find it (or it's a pain to find). Sometimes indexes at the end of books can help with that, but you must admit, it's more complicated than just straight page numbers, a well-established and simple way of telling others where to find things...

This new fangled thing called "page numbers" -- it was so much easier to find things when you remembered how far down the scroll it was.

People will get used to digital references. The researcher is used to having to search for things and digital researchers nowadays won't be put off by having to press Ctrl+F to find a quote they're looking for. In fact, it might be quicker than flipping through pages to find the right page number and then skimming that whole page with their eyes to find the quote in question.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 11:11 PM

What about the use of page numbers as an indication of length, Rosie? I routinely check how many pages a resource has before buying it as a gauge of how detailed it might be. I also frequently use page numbers to set goals (e.g., "I want to read 40 pages today"). This discussion is a bit beyond the original concern, but I think that pages have many uses. 

I don't remember when I may have read a pageless e-book. MJ, what has been your experience there with your unpaginated books? Were these books of the kind I refer above (for which one may want to pace themselves)? Short books? Long books? How do you know how long it will take you to read it (if it is a long book, say more than 300 pages)? How do you decide that you have time to take it on at a given time? Are custom reading plans possible and practical with these?

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 19 2015 11:55 PM

Francis:
I routinely check how many pages a resource has before buying it as a gauge of how detailed it might be.

Good point, I do that too.

But it appears that Logos is indeed intending to add page numbers to all resources that don't have them yet (except Vyrso resources, for which they make virtually no profit so they can't take the time to manually add in page numbers to match a print edition when publishers don't provide them), and in fact has done most of them already. The case that this thread brought up was explained by Kyle: "And as a follow-up: the 'missing' page milestones in the NA28 GBS edition was not a mistake. It has been our practice to not add page milestones to Bibles that cover the entire Bible, all of the New Testament or all of the New Testament." And for Bibles, I don't think we need page numbers to gauge how long or detailed the resource might be.

Francis:
I don't remember when I may have read a pageless e-book. MJ, what has been your experience there with your unpaginated books? Were these books of the kind I refer above (for which one may want to pace themselves)? Short books? Long books? How do you know how long it will take you to read it (if it is a long book, say more than 300 pages)?

I'm not MJ, but I've read unpaginated e-books in Kindle. You get used to it. You can gauge how long it is by looking at the "positions" and what percentage through it you are. I rarely worry about how long a book is and whether I have time to read it right now. I just plunge in. If I get busy with other things and don't finish the book, or set it aside for some other time, it's no big deal.

I also don't normally set goals like "I want to read 40 pages today." I read until I'm tired of reading or for a slot of time if that's the time I have. However much I read in that time, that's what I've read. I don't particularly count pages read, even in a book with page numbers. I do usually like to finish a chapter before I put a book down, just so I don't have to reread that last page or so to remember the context when I pick it back up again to continue. But other than that, I don't care how much I read in one sitting. I plunge in to start reading a chapter without caring how long it is. If I start getting sleepy, or running up against a time limitation, I can tell how much longer the chapter is (in screens worth) by paging through it. If it feels too long to finish before I go to sleep or have to move on to something else, I'll stop at a reasonable stopping point mid-chapter and put it down.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 20 2015 12:07 AM

Rosie Perera:
I also don't normally set goals like "I want to read 40 pages today." I read until I'm tired of reading or for a slot of time if that's the time I have. However much I read in that time, that's what I've read. I don't particularly count pages read, even in a book with page numbers. I do usually like to finish a chapter before I put a book down, just so I don't have to reread that last page or so to remember the context when I pick it back up again to continue. But other than that, I don't care how much I read in one sitting.

This illustrates further the variety of experiences and practices among Logos users. The vast majority of my reading is work oriented and at any given time I have to manage a number of different readings. With limited time and deadlines, "budgeting" my reading is essential. I cannot plunge into chapters without caring how long they are. On the contrary, my very first step is to map the lay of the land and quickly appraise the goal for the next reading session in that resource. 

This was part of the idea of saying that it would simpler to have page numbers in ALL resources: they have all kinds of uses and I find it best if someone else does not decide for me that I don't need them. But I am satisfied with the answer Faithlife has provided. I guess the present discussion is not useless as I am sure digital content companies debate this kind of thing: "is it worth our money to keep putting in page milestones in resources?". 

Good discussion.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 20 2015 1:24 AM

Yes, front matter for Bibles (with page numbers, of course) would prove useful.

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Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jan 20 2015 1:37 AM

Francis:
This illustrates further the variety of experiences and practices among Logos users. The vast majority of my reading is work oriented and at any given time I have to manage a number of different readings. With limited time and deadlines, "budgeting" my reading is essential. I cannot plunge into chapters without caring how long they are. On the contrary, my very first step is to map the lay of the land and quickly appraise the goal for the next reading session in that resource. 

It's helpful to me to hear how you read. Yes, it is quite different from the way I read. Rarely these days do I have to read anything. It's almost all for pleasure or personal enrichment, thus I can put it down or put it off until another time if something else is on my schedule for the day. In the rare instances where I really must (or ought to) read something, I usually know far enough in advance that I can pace myself without any budgeting of pages per day. For example, I'm reading two books to prepare for co-leadership of a retreat at the end of February. I've known about it for two months now and have been slowly chipping my way through one of the books and should finish it this week. The next one I'll thus have five weeks to read, more than ample time without being overly concerned about making great headway in any given day. At the same time, I'm aiming to read Calvin's Institutes with the reading group through all of 2015. I'm behind on the schedule right now, but it's not a big deal to me because I'm not going to be tested on it or anything. If it takes me through 2016 to read what the others finished in one year, oh well.

Francis:
Good discussion.

Agreed.

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