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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 1:30 AM

Schumitinu:

Phil Gons:

It's likely that some of what's included in Logos Now will eventually be a part of some future base packages. How much, we're not sure yet. What we are pretty sure of is that some of what's included will not be, especially things that are dynamic and always-growing.

Can someone give examples of things that are "dynamic and always-growing"?

They already did but I'm too lazy to find it ...

  • templates for visual copy
  • third-part art sources
  • they lists at least a couple more that I don't remember

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 570
Schumitinu | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 1:57 AM

Yes, I just came across the following explanation by Bob here

Bob Pritchett:

It's a pretty good guess that we'll offer for sale and outright purchase anything that's a complete, definable data set or resource. It's unlikely we'll offer for sale something that's a service, or a fluid database that's frequently maintained and updated. If we can call it 'done' and calculate its final cost, then we can price and sell it. If it's something that will never be done (curating online media at ever-changing third-party sites and tagging it with Preaching Themes?) then we'll likely only offer it by subscription. Likewise for something that's fundamentally a service, like a human-backed feature.

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 4:34 AM

Timothy Taylor:
For example, I've been anxiously waiting for the OT Propositional outline dataset. And now, is the only way for me to get it to subscribe to a monthly fee? Or is there a plan for it to become available for purchase for those who would rather not pay for Logos Now?

This one at least is easy to answer - the plan would be you can wait for Logos 7 to come out, as you would be waiting before any of this Logos Now was announced, and then you would have the option to get it in an upgrade to version 7 and own it.

Bob's point is that nothing has changed for those not interested in the Logos Now subscription model - if you don't subscribe, just wait and the collection of features/datasets is available in the next upgrade - as has been the history of how we have worked with Logos/Faithlife in the past. I think complaints here are making the point of what about all the existing customers not interested in subscription, that through their significant monetary investments helped grow Faithlife to where it is today, they don't have the option to enjoy features/datasets early in a business model they are comfortable with, further introducing concern about the viability long term of how they want to purchase (i.e., if ownership model is disadvantaged today at the introduction of Logos Now, how much more so will it be further disadvantaged, crippled, or even go away in the future).

It's not about Logos Now as much as it is about the effect to the ownership model. If that issue did not exist the other issues/concerns/questions would probably be less of a concern and/or quickly go away because people would feel they had two legitimate purchasing options where one is not favored over the other by Faithlife.

This concern probably doesn't diffuse for some until either Fathlife does something near-term that those same people start to believe the ownership model for buying is not a second class citizen, or time proves it is not the case and that concern was unfounded. By now, more talking probably doesn't change this issue for anyone anymore but at least we know what the issue is  :-)

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 9:05 AM

I am always late to the discussion it seems...

I have subscribed to Logos Now, and enjoy the new datasets and features so far. I can see from a business perspective why this makes sense and embrace innovation and staying ahead of or at least along with the curve. I appreciate Bob and Faithlife's transparency in introducing this new product. I trust Bob and FL as they have proven themselves trustworthy in my opinion. (others can disagree)

However, as a CPA doing business with businesses, I find that introducing a product to customers with a "we promise it will be good, but can't tell you exactly how it will work" fails to understand most customer/business relationships. Businesses provide products that have definition for the most part and customers decide if they want to buy. The tech industry has somewhat of a ready-shoot-aim business philosophy, but if there is too much shooting without much target, customers become confused. I think that is the case here. Personally I do not think this is not a matter of trust, or deceit or integrity or truth in advertising. All those accusations, while maybe perceived as valid, are probably just ways of voicing the confusion about the "target" not being defined enough when the product is introduced.

Most of us older (using the term loosely) do not embrace change. Most of the younger generation was raised on it. A $300 phone is obsolete in 2 years? Really? I understand and sympathize greatly with those that do not embrace change. However, it is going to come regardless of what we think. And to be honest, once it comes I like it. A business in the tech industry has to be forward looking, as getting left behind means you become obsolete. I appreciate Logos/FL forward thinking perspective. I appreciate the company dragging us forward even if we are kicking and screaming. In this case I do wish there was a bit more structure to the product. It would make the customer/business relationship clearer and more defined.

FL was one of the first bible software companies to go multi platform, go to downloads rather than CD/DVD, provide web access, cloud syncing of data etc. Each time there was similar customer anxiety being voiced. Each time in the end FL was followed by other software companies. Innovation has a price. Sometime the shot does not find any target. Sometimes the target finds the shot. (FL groups as an example). I am in for the ride, but FL, you need to be more defined in your products as you move forward. If you do not know, then maybe it is too soon to release the product.

Posts 1129
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 10:47 AM

John Fidel:

I am always late to the discussion it seems...

I have subscribed to Logos Now, and enjoy the new datasets and features so far. I can see from a business perspective why this makes sense and embrace innovation and staying ahead of or at least along with the curve. I appreciate Bob and Faithlife's transparency in introducing this new product. I trust Bob and FL as they have proven themselves trustworthy in my opinion. (others can disagree)

However, as a CPA doing business with businesses, I find that introducing a product to customers with a "we promise it will be good, but can't tell you exactly how it will work" fails to understand most customer/business relationships. Businesses provide products that have definition for the most part and customers decide if they want to buy. The tech industry has somewhat of a ready-shoot-aim business philosophy, but if there is too much shooting without much target, customers become confused. I think that is the case here. Personally I do not think this is not a matter of trust, or deceit or integrity or truth in advertising. All those accusations, while maybe perceived as valid, are probably just ways of voicing the confusion about the "target" not being defined enough when the product is introduced.

Most of us older (using the term loosely) do not embrace change. Most of the younger generation was raised on it. A $300 phone is obsolete in 2 years? Really? I understand and sympathize greatly with those that do not embrace change. However, it is going to come regardless of what we think. And to be honest, once it comes I like it. A business in the tech industry has to be forward looking, as getting left behind means you become obsolete. I appreciate Logos/FL forward thinking perspective. I appreciate the company dragging us forward even if we are kicking and screaming. In this case I do wish there was a bit more structure to the product. It would make the customer/business relationship clearer and more defined.

FL was one of the first bible software companies to go multi platform, go to downloads rather than CD/DVD, provide web access, cloud syncing of data etc. Each time there was similar customer anxiety being voiced. Each time in the end FL was followed by other software companies. Innovation has a price. Sometime the shot does not find any target. Sometimes the target finds the shot. (FL groups as an example). I am in for the ride, but FL, you need to be more defined in your products as you move forward. If you do not know, then maybe it is too soon to release the product.

Great observations John! Logos has not defined the target for the consumer. Logos has defined the target very well for themselves, it makes a lot of sense to generate a more predictable revenue stream.

However, as a consumer I am a little fuzzy about my “target”. So I get to use some of Logos 7 features early (BTW I used the Law Interactive today and it was very helpful) and some great media. But is it worth $8.99 per month, not to me personally. It is not enough for Logos to say, “trust us” to add more media, to offer special discounts, and to offer some unspecified credit when Logos 7 comes out. I do trust them to do all of those things, it is just that as a consumer I have absolutely no idea if I will judge these extra as worth $8.99 per month. I am sure there as some Logos users who already believe Logos NOW is worth $8.99 per month. I am also sure there will be some who will never find $8.99 per value in it. I fit in the category of “I don’t know.”

I wish Logos would have gotten their duck in order before launching this. I have signed up for the free month and because I do “trust” Logos I will actually pay for one or two months, but after that I can’t imagine continuing with so many unanswered questions. I hope Logos understand that this is not a complaint, but rather a plea, I really like the idea of Logos NOW but there is a limit to how long customers are willing to wait to see the value for the money they are spending.

Posts 776
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 12:04 PM

John Fidel:

... "we promise it will be good, but can't tell you exactly how it will work" ...

Hmmm.  Reminiscent of some long-ago national healthcare legislation that I vaguely remember ... "We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it".  

In reality, I trust the intentions, the integrity, and the transparency of Bob Pritchett and his team far more than the author of that little gem.

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Apr 11 2015 12:30 PM

Keith Larson:
I wish Logos would have gotten their duck in order before launching this. I have signed up for the free month and because I do “trust” Logos I will actually pay for one or two months, but after that I can’t imagine continuing with so many unanswered questions. I hope Logos understand that this is not a complaint, but rather a plea, I really like the idea of Logos NOW but there is a limit to how long customers are willing to wait to see the value for the money they are spending.

Well put. I am afraid they have raised a lot of questions that have yet to be answered. I hope we get those answers soon because I think Logos Now is a great idea.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 16 2015 3:55 AM

Based on the number of responses to this forum, it doesn't seem like Logos Now is getting much traction.  I really think that Logos needs to offer a $3.99 option for the enhanced web site only.  I think that will more popular than Logos Now for most users.

Director of Zoeproject 

www.zoeproject.com

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 16 2015 5:09 AM

Tony Thomas:
I really think that Logos needs to offer a $3.99 option for the enhanced web site only.

Faithlife is a business that needs to make a profit to stay open.  Profit = Revenue - Expenses.  Enhanced web site expenses can easily be more than $ 3.99 revenue for those who use an enhanced web site a lot.  Anticipating web site only subscription being like phone data plans.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 16 2015 6:23 AM

I would only point out that companies like Ford Motor Company relied on its founder (i.e. Henry Ford's personality and integrity) to assure the success and continuation of the company.  Yet, much like Ford Motors, such reliance on a personality didn't always turn out so well when the founder died or vision didn't meet the changing market conditions.  One wonders just how far "integrity" and "personality" can carry a company in an accelerating technology market in the coming years....particularly after purchasing thousands of dollars of product.  Just a thought.

Posts 442
Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 16 2015 6:52 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Tony Thomas:
I really think that Logos needs to offer a $3.99 option for the enhanced web site only.

Faithlife is a business that needs to make a profit to stay open.  Profit = Revenue - Expenses.  Enhanced web site expenses can easily be more than $ 3.99 revenue for those who use an enhanced web site a lot.  Anticipating web site only subscription being like phone data plans.

Keep Smiling Smile

I understand that Faithlife needs to pay the bills and keep the lights on. However, the price needs to be reasonable to attract paying customers.  I pay four dollars a month for Pandora and $3.75 a month for Evernote.  Four dollars a month for Logos enhanced web seems to me to be a fair price for the services rendered. Your mileage may vary. I think that one of the reasons that Faithlife is in this predicament is that they have created a high cost of entry compared to the competition.  The market is getting saturated and there is less money to go around.

Director of Zoeproject 

www.zoeproject.com

Posts 233
Brian Losabia | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 16 2015 7:07 AM

Even in its initial state, I am fine with subscribing to Logos Now.  Regardless of the number of functions offered at the present time, I still feel like Logos has been so generous with the free books, free training, birthday gift certificates, Christmas cards, etc. that it'll be a long time before I feel like I'm getting a bad deal.  And in the meantime, I'll get to use cool new tools and features to get more out of my Logos library.

Posts 3006
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 16 2015 1:26 PM

Brian Losabia:

Even in its initial state, I am fine with subscribing to Logos Now.  Regardless of the number of functions offered at the present time, I still feel like Logos has been so generous with the free books, free training, birthday gift certificates, Christmas cards, etc. that it'll be a long time before I feel like I'm getting a bad deal.  And in the meantime, I'll get to use cool new tools and features to get more out of my Logos library.

That's a great way to look at it!

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband

How to upload logs

Visit My Site: Reformed Truths

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Onell McCarthy | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 16 2015 6:56 PM

Hey Phil I subscribed but i have not seen a download

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 16 2015 10:57 PM

Onell McCarthy:

Hey Phil I subscribed but i have not seen a download

Do you see Tools such as Concordance?

Can you see Propositional Outlines in Genesis in the NIV - with the Propositional Visual Filter enabled?

If so, these are some of the Logos Now features.

If not, please start a new thread about this

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 16 2015 11:12 PM

Tony Thomas:
I understand that Faithlife needs to pay the bills and keep the lights on. However, the price needs to be reasonable to attract paying customers.

Concur pricing affects demand.  Lower pricing tends to have higher demand along with potential for economies of scale.

Tony Thomas:
I pay four dollars a month for Pandora and $3.75 a month for Evernote.

Noticed new Pandora One subscribers pay $ 4.99 per month as of May 2014 => http://money.cnn.com/2014/03/19/technology/innovation/pandora-fees/index.html 

Most of Pandora's 75 million active users won't be affected -- only 3.3 million customers pay for subscriptions. But Pandora's subscriber base has grown quickly, after the company briefly capped the number of hours listeners could log in from a mobile device using the free version last year.

Even if higher rates drive customers back to the free version, it might actually help Pandora.

Paid subscribers are Pandora's heaviest users, and the company isn't making as much money per-song from a subscriber as the company is from an ad-based listener, according to Laura Martin, a senior analyst at Needham & Company. 

More research found 80 % of Pandora's revenue comes from advertising => http://www.dailyfinance.com/2015/03/12/pandoras-plan-convert-freeloaders-subscribers/ plus Pandora added $ 0.99 one-day ad free pass.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 24 2015 9:56 PM

Just signed up for the free month! Waiting for Logos to install the new features. In the meantime, checking out the web app.

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 1975
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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 24 2015 10:29 PM

John Fidel:

I am always late to the discussion it seems...

I have subscribed to Logos Now, and enjoy the new datasets and features so far. I can see from a business perspective why this makes sense and embrace innovation and staying ahead of or at least along with the curve. I appreciate Bob and Faithlife's transparency in introducing this new product. I trust Bob and FL as they have proven themselves trustworthy in my opinion. (others can disagree)

However, as a CPA doing business with businesses, I find that introducing a product to customers with a "we promise it will be good, but can't tell you exactly how it will work" fails to understand most customer/business relationships. Businesses provide products that have definition for the most part and customers decide if they want to buy. The tech industry has somewhat of a ready-shoot-aim business philosophy, but if there is too much shooting without much target, customers become confused. I think that is the case here. Personally I do not think this is not a matter of trust, or deceit or integrity or truth in advertising. All those accusations, while maybe perceived as valid, are probably just ways of voicing the confusion about the "target" not being defined enough when the product is introduced.

Most of us older (using the term loosely) do not embrace change. Most of the younger generation was raised on it. A $300 phone is obsolete in 2 years? Really? I understand and sympathize greatly with those that do not embrace change. However, it is going to come regardless of what we think. And to be honest, once it comes I like it. A business in the tech industry has to be forward looking, as getting left behind means you become obsolete. I appreciate Logos/FL forward thinking perspective. I appreciate the company dragging us forward even if we are kicking and screaming. In this case I do wish there was a bit more structure to the product. It would make the customer/business relationship clearer and more defined.

FL was one of the first bible software companies to go multi platform, go to downloads rather than CD/DVD, provide web access, cloud syncing of data etc. Each time there was similar customer anxiety being voiced. Each time in the end FL was followed by other software companies. Innovation has a price. Sometime the shot does not find any target. Sometimes the target finds the shot. (FL groups as an example). I am in for the ride, but FL, you need to be more defined in your products as you move forward. If you do not know, then maybe it is too soon to release the product.

Thanks for being one of few "level-headed" voices in this thread! I'm one of the younger generation, but find I have a lot more in common with the values of the older generation when it comes to liking "stability." At the same time I've seen the increased longterm viability that a forward-looking philosophy has provided, and consequently have effectively argued for promoting Logos (instead of company A or B) in my organization!

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