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This post has 147 Replies | 16 Followers

Posts 217
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 4:05 PM

Bob Pritchett:
I think what you are really doing is accusing me of lying, and that just seems rude.

I apologise for coming across that way. Passions run high when things I care passionately about (and spend most of my time and nearly all of my money on) appear to change. I am just anxiously concerned about what I read in other posts about features not being available for customers who like to pay you money up front. This didn't agree with the feeling I go when I read your post which seemed (in my understanding) to say that customers would be treated equally, the only difference being how you paid. The greedy side of my nature doesn't want to miss out but I am even more concerned that I get to keep what I buy without having to pay ad infinitum to keep them. Thank you for reassuring me that these features are only 'early access' (and yes I've noted what you said about having extremely good reasons if they are exclusive)

Bob Pritchett:
We intend to make Logos Now such a compelling offer that you voluntarily subscribe because it's a such a good deal, even if you hate subscriptions. 

Indeed I did understand correctly at first. However, again, I hope the 'compelling' nature of the service doesn't mean that purchase up-front customers miss out on features (I suppose that is the 'hidden agenda' I fear, and where I think you may not be treating all customer types equally and fairly.)

Regarding the Software as a service model, I think it will be interesting in 3-5 years to look back at this thread, comparing vision, aims etc then and now. I hope then to be using Logos from my speech activated holographic wrist wearable smart device(but still paying for the software!!)

Bob Pritchett:
Other people want to rent everything,

That MAY be the case, but you won't be able to determine that to be the case for Bible Software by your approach since, in your own words, "we plan to bribe you...even if you hate subscriptions"  ! I understand your need to generate revenue - but like I have said in other posts, I'd pay weekly (if necessary) for updates, features etc IF I got to keep them!! Why stick to the 1990s model of a bi-annual release cycle? Change this too!

Finally, thank you for taking time to reply and clarifying a few things. I always appreciate your openness, your comments about what you are thinking and the direction you are leading the company.

Again please accept my humble apologies for coming across rude.

Yours in His Service,

James

Posts 217
James Hudson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 4:34 PM

Bob Pritchett:
I imagine many users would be even unhappier if we tried to sell them a minor new feature every six weeks,

I for one would be happier to have cutting edge features every 6 weeks! Big Smile

I'm sure you've already considered it and discussed the merits and demerits of this idea: What about a pre-pub approach for new features?

Posts 11073
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 4:38 PM

Bob ... I'll stay with the theory you're a businessman. And after you haven't picked all the money left on the table, you'll be selling your product.  'Planning'.

"I didn't know God made honky tonk angels."

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 5:06 PM

I'll just say again, in all the euphoria about new features, datasets, etc., - I wish there was even a closely similar obsession with making existing Logos 6 EASIER and FRIENDLIER for us to use. There are SO MANY features that just have little UI discrepancies that make it cumbersome - things that don't persist, wasted keystrokes and mouse clicks, actions that do different things in different parts of the program, incomplete version 1 implementations (readily admitted by Faithlife by the way, which is fine except...on to the next list of new features), delays (I have about the fastest Windows laptop available and just typing Luke 4.1 to bring up ESV from the command box takes about 7 seconds), freezes, UI approaches that were great when number of resources was small now that they are huge it's a very inappropriate implementation, the list goes on and on...

I really think a UI/workflow guru who did a comprehensive audit of this software would recommend so many things that would make us much more productive. Why does this thought get so little traction, it's never talked about, other than in response to complaints....send us to User Voice....Does anyone at Faithlife use Logos or Verbum for real study/research work about 6 hours a day? Don't they see all this?

It's just seems so marketing driven, obsession with adding to the list of features....how many use those new features? Spme posts in this very thread ake me wonder. I know, making existing features much easier to use is not sexy.

Please focus on making us more productive with what we already have, when we move to all these fast incremental releases! 

Posts 1706
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 5:28 PM

Don Awalt:
Please focus on making us more productive

We've been working on this for months now, and you should see some significant improvements in 6.2, with more to follow in 6.3.

Posts 3789
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 5:32 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Don Awalt:
Please focus on making us more productive

We've been working on this for months now, and you should see some significant improvements in 6.2, with more to follow in 6.3.

Thank you. I really appreciate that.

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 5:34 PM

Bob Pritchett:

Don Awalt:
Please focus on making us more productive

We've been working on this for months now, and you should see some significant improvements in 6.2, with more to follow in 6.3.

That will be great! Thanks for addressing this.

Posts 208
Jeffrey S. Robison | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 6:15 PM

All this discussion about Logos 7... Maybe we should ask if there will be a Logos 7. 

Hey Faithlife, Will there be a Logos 7?

Or is the direction to move toward a subscription based product that renders my desktop version obsolete and unsupported.

I remember the years of no Mac support or improvement waiting on what became Logos 4. Now I sit curious about the direction of a company that I have more than $17k of resources investment and how this move is going to effect my ability to interact with those resources.

I called customer service and they would not even say that there would be a Logos 7. Leads me to believe that there is about to be seismic shift in the whole business model of Faithlife and how  the customers (soon to be "subscribers") will interface with the products. I would not be surprised if the desktop and tools as we know them, at least how we pay for them is about to change.

I find it really hard to believe that the implementation of this subscription service is occurring without a clear "yes" or "no" on whether there will be a Logos 7 or 8 or... without knowing what the impact will be on the business model other than that it will be another revenue stream.

This would be a fundamental change to how we as customers have understood the company's commitment to us. I am not saying that anyone is being untruthful or misleading... I just do not believe that Faithlife is being forthright about the company's vision and direction.

I am not opposed to a subscription service, I just want to know how it will effect me as a customer in the future and I believe that a multi-million dollar company already has that in the prospectus before they roll out such a service.

What is the future vision and direction of Faithlife?

Posts 208
Jeffrey S. Robison | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 6:48 PM

David Taylor Jr:

Jeffrey S. Robison:

Mr. Pritchett,

I must say that as a Logos user since version 1, I am chalking this up to another broken or unfulfilled promise. I have bought Portfolio. It was purchased with the understanding that it would be and continue to update to the "latest and greatest" of scholarship and research. Now, because you like subscription revenue, you are throwing loyal customers under the proverbial bus and telling us that our products will no longer update to the latest biblical research unless we now put a subscription on top of it. I do not mind paying for what I use. I will more than likely subscribe, but I do not understand why this is not part of the higher end packages. This kind of information was part of what I was led to believe that I was paying for. I understand charging for the "extra" without the books/resources in the smaller base packages, but this is the very kind of updates that should be part of the Diamond, Portfolio, and Collector base packages. I know for myself... I am a pretty "predictable revenue." I would imagine that the other large base package purchasers are as well. I subscribe to Proclaim as well. I feel like Logos is breaking yet another promise to me.

Now that I have vented, will Logos Now finally provide a usable prayer list and personal book sync on mobile devices?

What promise are you referring to? I am not aware of a promise that you would continue to get new features, did I miss something?

When I first bought into Logos (Libronix) base packages, it was sold to me saying that if resources were added to that package in the future that I would receive them free of charge... probably a bad salesman, but still a promise to a customer. 

After the announcement of the Mac version, I bought a large base package on that promise of a date... that took years... and  then more years to run "natively" on my machine.

I bought Portfolio, upgraded the core engine, package downgraded to Diamond, Bought Portfolio for 5 in July of 2014 and then had to pay about $1200 to upgrade Portfolio 5 to Portfolio 6 to the "latest and greatest" tools in October of 2014. Six months later and it is another $8.99 a month to keep up. I am working on a Th.D. in systematic theology so I like tools.

And just so you know, I know what was said to me and explained to me as I have invested thousands into Logos, Libronix, Logos, Faithlife. I have accepted apologies and continued as a really good customer.

Once bitten, twice shy.

Posts 29383
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 7:30 PM

Jeffrey S. Robison:

Once bitten, twice shy.

A good practice. Luckily despite my normal bad luck, I've not had your string of luck with Logos since the long delayed "Catholic edition" of Logos 2 ... which has given me time to forgive, laugh, and not forget.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9240
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 8:04 PM

Jeffrey S. Robison:
Hey Faithlife, Will there be a Logos 7?

I think we can all expect a Logos 7. Not at all sure about a Logos 10. But by then computing, the internet, and lots more may have changed so much most of us won't care.

Since Faithlife wants to stay in business for the long term and wants to grow its business by a lot, whatever it does it will need to do in stages over time. It can't abandon what will be for the foreseeable future its largest user segment and probably biggest source of income: people like us.

However, if Faithlife doesn't change someone else will put them out of business with a truly revolutionary or more desirable product (Polaroid and Kodak come to mind). That would be far worse than not having a Logos 8, 9, or 10 in my mind.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 208
Jeffrey S. Robison | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 8:30 PM

Mark Smith:
However, if Faithlife doesn't change someone else will put them out of business with a truly revolutionary or more desirable product (Polaroid and Kodak come to mind). That would be far worse than not having a Logos 8, 9, or 10 in my mind.

I am not opposed to change, I just think that there is more info about the direction that Faithlife believes that the market is going to drive the product. As a Mac user I get enough of the secrecy, rumor, and speculation I need. For my everyday work software I would prefer a little better than "Heads up!"

Posts 29383
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 8:43 PM

Jeffrey S. Robison:

I am not opposed to change, I just think that there is more info about the direction that Faithlife believes that the market is going to drive the product. As a Mac user I get enough of the secrecy, rumor, and speculation I need. For my everyday work software I would prefer a little better than "Heads up!"

Quit reading the forums and you'll all but eliminate rumor and speculation. Wink I'm not sure what you do want as "as little better than 'heads up!'" can you be more specific?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 9240
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 8:47 PM

Jeffrey S. Robison:
I am not opposed to change, I just think that there is more info about the direction that Faithlife believes that the market is going to drive the product. As a Mac user I get enough of the secrecy, rumor, and speculation I need. For my everyday work software I would prefer a little better than "Heads up!"

That's fair. The market seems to be going to rental/subscription and cloud-based. Faithlife most certainly knows this and I imagine they must be thinking in that direction. Exactly how that will impact Logos Bible software is something we'd all like to know.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 29383
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 9:02 PM

Bruce, to me saying Logos Now has "early access" implies that others will have access probably in L7 as I read the threads.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 29383
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 9:08 PM

Bob Pritchett:

[For example, Logos Now may include access to a human search consultant, who will on-demand formulate a specific query for you. That's a service, not a product -- you get access to this service if you subscribe, you don't if you don't. There's no way to buy this as part of Logos 7.

Bob, I would really like this feature because it has the added benefit of Faithlife having a direct way to experience the users' difficulties and observe what users actually want to find. Definitely keep this on your to-do list.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 9:19 PM

Jeffrey S. Robison:
I remember the years of no Mac support or improvement waiting on what became Logos 4. ... I called customer service and they would not even say that there would be a Logos 7.

Business lesson learned from initial Mac release taking many years is not to promise future delivery.  Wiki has Logos for Mac 1 history => https://wiki.logos.com/Mac_Release_Notes_and_History#Logos_for_Mac_1_History

Tempo of Logos development has picked up so trying to learn how to use new features effectively is a bit challenging (or overwhelming).  In 20 months, hope to know about Logos 7 release or promised plans since early November has had a number of major Logos releases.

Jeffrey S. Robison:
What is the future vision and direction of Faithlife?

Suggest reading Faithlife replies in this thread and => Logos Now since much has been shared.  Thankful for many replies by Bob and Phil Big Smile

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1751
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 8 2015 9:51 PM

Bob Pritchett:

mike:
Bob, please elaborate what "perks" would the Logos Now subscribers get?

We're still figuring this out. But it gets to the point that some parts of Logos Now may be things you can't 'buy' because they aren't 'buyable.' (Or at least not easily.) For example, Logos Now may include access to a human search consultant, who will on-demand formulate a specific query for you. That's a service, not a product -- you get access to this service if you subscribe, you don't if you don't. There's no way to buy this as part of Logos 7.

This would be really neat to have. I would personally love it. I guess you could bundle it in with Logos 7 if you packaged up the consultant and shipped it to the customer's house (provided the customer would continue to feed and care for the consultant). :-)

Joking aside, I could see "Logos Now" including search/research consultants that could be a little more "premium" level of support when a customer needs to call in for a question that is non tech support or customer service related. Subscribers that may need some "premium" support on how to better conduct search queries, do particular parts of research, etc., could access that level of support. It wouldn't do away with the need of solid training (manuals, videos, Morris Proctor, LearnLogos.com, webinars, these forums, etc.), but it would be nice to know I'd have an extra level of support of people highly skilled in the program if I ran into something I seriously needed some deep consulting on, something more than "general tech support". That would be worth a subscription to Logos Now as well (although the current value has already sold it for me).

Nathan Parker

Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com

Posts 2083
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 4:36 AM

Graham Criddle:

Joseph Turner:
I don't understand what one gets for the subscription price.  Is it just features within the software, as well as possibly some Lexham resources, or are we talking about other resources?

Phil explains what we get in the current release at https://community.logos.com/forums/p/103245/713695.aspx#713695 (reproduced below)

What is Logos Now?

  1. It’s a subscription-based service.
  2. It’s content and tools for serious Bible study.
  3. It builds on top of Logos 6.
  4. It’s continually growing and getting regular updates.
  5. It’s access to the future of Logos Bible Software, today.
  6. It's a membership program.

What do you get with Logos Now?

  1. A growing library of data, media, and interactive content.
  2. Early access to new features and tools.
  3. Access to the beta of the new Logos web app.
  4. Special membership benefits such as exclusive offers, special discounts, and more.

What does the first release include?

  1. Old Testament Propositional Bible Outlines (dataset)
  2. Greek Grammatical Constructions (dataset)
  3. Commandments of the Law (interactive)
  4. Visual Copy Templates (media)
  5. Author Slide Templates (media)
  6. Logos Stock Images, vol. 2 (media)
  7. Media Browser (tool)
  8. Concordance (tool)
  9. Access to the beta of the Logos web app
  10. Membership benefits (e.g., exclusive offers, special discounts)

We'll continue to add more value to it over time. More details forthcoming.

Joseph Turner:
Surely one can't now, or ever get access to the whole Logos catalog for $8.99 a month.

No - that isn't what this is about.

From the FAQ page at https://www.logos.com/faq#LogosNow 

Do I need to own a Logos 6 base package to useLogos Now?

Logos 6 Feature Crossgrade, Gold, or higher will provide an optimal experience with Logos Now.

Get Logos 6 Feature Crossgrade

Upgrade to Logos 6 Gold

I already own a base package. Why Logos Now?

Think of Logos Now as an add-on to your Logos 6 base package. A Logos 6 base package is still the best way to build a library of resources you own. Logos Now provides additional value to your library with the latest content, features, datasets, interactives, and media.

Thanks Graham!  I haven't had a chance to read all of the threads.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 1706
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 9 2015 11:53 AM

Jeffrey S. Robison:
I called customer service and they would not even say that there would be a Logos 7.

We have very few policies as a company, but one is "don't say anything about a product that hasn't shipped!" 

So our CS agent was just following this policy; there's no need to try and 'read the tea leaves.' There's no big conspiracy or master plan that we all know internally and are keeping from you. Just a bunch of people doing our work every day, making plans, changing plans, listening to customers, coming up with ideas, etc. And as 'regular people', we have no more future-predicting abilities than you. :-)

If you walked into a Ford dealership and asked "With the 2017 model have Apple CarPlay integration? Or a V-8 option?" and they said "I can't promise that", it likely doesn't reflect their plans in any way. It reflects that the person on the sales floor hasn't been told, and that the person who IS planning on CarPlay integration may change their mind before then based on user adoption or market forces or budget, and the V-8 decision may be made two months before tooling starts based on gas prices that year.

Is there going to be a Logos 7? I think so. (And even saying that scares me... please don't come back and pummel me later if something changes.) It follow pretty naturally on Logos 3, 4, 5, and 6. It makes sense. But hey, maybe the Apple Watch changes the world and we all stop using laptops and just talk into our wrists while receiving text via corneal implants....

Jeffrey S. Robison:
I find it really hard to believe that the implementation of this subscription service is occurring without a clear "yes" or "no" on whether there will be a Logos 7 or 8 or...

Why do you find this hard to believe? I think it's actually quite reasonable that A) companies try things, and B) tend not to announce future product plans far in advance (for risk of warning competitors, deferring present sales, making promises they end up not keeping, and simply not knowing the future).

Jeffrey S. Robison:
What is the future vision and direction of Faithlife?

Again, I feel like we're as clear as we possibly can be about this, and that I've been completely transparent in this thread and others. (Calling the front-line customer service agent and demanding to know if they can promise an unannounced product release two (?) years in the future isn't really fair, and when they can't, shouldn't count against transparency.)

We plan to support our existing ownership model indefinitely while offering new subscription models for people who prefer them, and we plan to offer a 'supplemental' subscription product called Logos Now with such a compelling value proposition that even people who prefer ownership models subscribe to at least this. 

I'm sorry that part of the transparency is saying "we think" and "we plan", not "we promise", but if I was confidently asserting that I could tell you how technology products / business-models / platforms / trends were going to be a few years from now, you'd have other reasons to think poorly of us. :-)

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