Page 1 of 1 (17 items)
This post has 16 Replies | 1 Follower

Posts 228
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Apr 20 2015 12:40 PM

Dear Bob

Why should I spend $54 on Logos Now over the next 6 months for a work in progress when I could wait and have something more worthwhile.

Honestly not trying to be contentious but right now I can see the benefit of Logos Now to Faithlife but am struggling to see what is in for an early adopter i.e. what do I get that others will miss out on by not joining now?

I get that I have access to some new tools and resources but they are clearly a work in progress and I can see no reason why I should not access them on a pay as you go model i.e. subscribe for a month if I think they would help rather than have a permanent subscription.

Posts 130
Robert J Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 20 2015 12:43 PM

Seems to me from the posts I have seen about Logos Now so far, that you are paying to Beta test the new tools.

Posts 26277
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 20 2015 1:00 PM

Graham: Welcome to the forum. The forums are where you get feedback from other users. You may email or phone Bob if you want his response. Whether or not there is value to you personally depends upon how you use Logos/Verbum. No one can answer your question except yourself. Robert is misinformed in equating it to a beta program.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1561
John Kight | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 20 2015 1:08 PM

Welcome Graham! This may be helpful as well

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/103335.aspx

For book reviews and more visit sojotheo.com 

Posts 4761
David Paul | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Apr 20 2015 1:15 PM

Graham Owen:
I get that I have access to some new tools and resources but they are clearly a work in progress

Are they clearly a work in progress? That isn't the impression I get. The new Web App is offered in a beta build, but you don't have to play with it if you don't want to.

Graham Owen:
I can see no reason why I should not access them on a pay as you go model i.e. subscribe for a month if I think they would help rather than have a permanent subscription.

Are you really Graham? I thought he was more articulate than this. Rather than try to unravel what you said here, I will just point out that you can subscribe or not as you see fit, or unsubscribe or not, as you see fit. You get a month free, so in reality you don't even have to subscribe, unless you decide you want to. I'm not sure what you mean by "permanent subscription", unless you mean a subscription you decide you won't ever cancel.

Robert J Smith:

Seems to me from the posts I have seen about Logos Now so far, that you are paying to Beta test the new tools.

Then you may need glasses...the only beta is the Web App, but all of the other tools are fully tested and ready to go.

Posts 228
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 23 2015 1:04 PM

MJ. Smith:
Graham: Welcome to the forum.

Actually been here for a long time, my count was obviously reset when I switched email addresses.

Posts 228
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 23 2015 1:27 PM

David Paul:
Are you really Graham? I thought he was more articulate than this.

You must be mixing me up with another Graham I'm always inarticulate here when Logos/Faithlife confuse me Cool

The point is, and I think that you figured this out, if I take a free month now to see whether Logos Now has any useful tools. Where is the incentive to pay every month when, as far as I can tell, I could subscribe for the months when I feel that the tools might be useful and then unsubscribe until I need the tools again.

OK so I get that this is more than a chance to Beta Test the new web based tool and maybe get some insight to what will be in the next version. However, I have read the Logos Now web page a number of times and tried to follow the threads that discuss it and I am still unclear as to what Logos Now is going to give me that I won't get eventually i.e. when the next versions ships. So if I assume a three year release cycle the questions is what do I get for $324 that I won't get from buying a new Logos package when it is released?

The only thing that I have seen so far is a suggestion from Bob is access to some "unique" assistance like help with complex searches or guidance in how best to approach a specific research topic. It has to be said though that this is another example of what could be called a "vague" promise.

I like Logos a lot, have used it for a long time and have a lot of money invested. I want to like Logos Now. The problem is that I am really struggling to understand what it is.

  • Am I subscribing to datasets that will only be available through Logos Now?
  • Am I subscribing to tools that will only be available through Logos Now?
  • Am I subscribing to a maintenance scheme that means all future upgrades will be free (i.e. datasets and tools but excluding resources)?
  • Am I paying for a research assistant? (i.e. a super user who can help me use Logos better, if so what are the limits?)

The question that I'm struggling with is simple what is Logos Now? Is it some, all, part of or none of the above,

I'm really not sure how I can determine whether it is value for money or not without some clear statements on this.

Posts 228
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 23 2015 1:50 PM

John Kight:

Welcome Graham! This may be helpful as well

https://community.logos.com/forums/t/103335.aspx

Thanks John, read that the day that it was posted and it seems to focus on what is in it for Logos (cash flow), why its good for new users (lower base package prices) and how it helps users who like graphics. What is not clear is what is the benefit for someone who has invested heavily for 20 years to have the best available tools for Bible Study.

I'm sure that Faithlife don't want me to reduce my spend on new resources and community pricing to cover the cost, they want more money from me not the same or less and that being the case I think there should be some clear examples of what is unique. 

I know that Bob has an aversion to making things too defined or rigid because he likes flexibility but there is a fine line between being flexible and making it up as you go along. As it stands Logos Now is too close to the making it up as you go along scenario for comfort,

The simples way to ask this as a single question is this:

Will Logos Now users see a significant benefit from their subscription when the next version of Logos is released? 

And for the avoidance of doubt I see significant benefit as something that has a clear monetary value that relates to the value of the subscription.

Without this the challenge I see is that the datasets and tools being offered are cumulative so if I subscribe at any point I get everything that is available as part of Logos Now. This is in stark contrast with say a magazine subscription where I get access to the material published for within the period of my subscription.

To be comparable some of the datasets would have to be limited to articles published during the subscription period with an option to buy "back issues". I know that Faithlife won't want to go down this route as it will result in something over complex that would be a nightmare to administer. I can see that this model is more like Deezer where I get everything while I'm paying and nothing before I start or after I stop the complexity is that I already own a massive number of resources and every too and dataset that I can buy so I need to know how the two schemes will coexist,

Maybe I have missed something and these questions have now been answered in another post but to date the web site is extremely vague and I think it needs to be clearer.

Posts 27553
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 23 2015 2:13 PM

Graham Owen:
The question that I'm struggling with is simple what is Logos Now?

Without getting into specifics, I think the best way to view "Logos Now" is to view it as a similar "service" to Amazon Prime. Originally Prime was geared towards college students and provided free two-day shipping on text books. Eventually Prime has evolved to include streaming TV shows, music, photo storage and more. Prime members receive other discounts and goodies such as a free kindle book (choose from a short list) each month.

Faithlife seems to view "Logos Now" as a value added membership like Prime, with new features and benefits added over time. What will those be? We don't know. You asked about a "research assistant" above... that was one idea that Bob has, but may or may not come to fruition. We are unlikely to get much more speculation from Faithlife about possible future features.

My suggestion? Wait a few months before you take your free trial. One of the really cool features of Logos Now is the web app... only it is still in its infancy. Imagine being away from your computer and able to access most of your L6 features from a web interface. I worked in IT for a little while, and would have loved to have had access to the web interface during that time. I often used biblia.com during lunch breaks, but that was pretty unsatisfying. 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 1129
Keith Larson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 23 2015 3:26 PM

Graham,

I see value, but not $8.99 per month. However, each person will have to make up their own mind. I do see $4.50 of value so I am willing to stick with it for two months in hopes more will be added and we have a better idea of what the "special discounts" look like as well as some clarification on what credit we will get when the Logos 7 upgrade comes.

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 23 2015 4:30 PM

Keith Larson:
I am willing to stick with it for two months in hopes more will be added and we have a better idea of what the "special discounts" look like as well as some clarification on what credit we will get when the Logos 7 upgrade comes.

Those factors are the two great unknowns.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 228
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 24 2015 4:56 AM

alabama24:
One of the really cool features of Logos Now is the web app...

Not sure what it's like in the US but here in the UK we are still some way from being able to rely on getting good Internet when we are not at Home or in the Office. So at the moment a service that needs the Internet has limited value (to me at least). I have been experimenting with Google Desktop to access my PC at home and it's great from my tablet when I am in the office but is less useful when I am travelling and cannot access my service providers WiFi service.

The reality is that for me, most of the time, the Android App works really well on an 8" tablet. Exceptions are that I miss the ability to create clippings and I occasionally find that I need a resource that I have not downloaded.I'm not convinced that I need full functionality when mobile I just need the tools to read, study and capture information back to my PC. That said, having just upgraded to an i7, 16GB, SSD system to run Logos 6 maybe a full function web app will save me money on hardware in the future.

I've been in IT for 35 years so understand the issues that face software companies in terms of the changing dynamics of the market and expectation of users old and new. I've also been a Logos user long enough to know that most of Bob's decisions on direction usually look good with hindsight. I just, like many others, wish that things looked OK with foresight.

Posts 27553
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 24 2015 7:29 AM

Graham Owen:
I've also been a Logos user long enough to know that most of Bob's decisions on direction usually look good with hindsight. I just, like many others, wish that things looked OK with foresight.

Yes

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 8
Thomas Carpenter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 24 2015 7:55 AM

Actually he is not misinformed in calling it a beta. I work in the IT industry and have for over 25 years. The state and quality of Logos Now, at this point, is the very definition of beta: incomplete data sets, features "soon to come", and stability issues accompanied by a long list of, "we'll be doing this soon." I'm not trying to be antagonistic here, but I can't let that statement slide. You can't redefine beta to meet your needs anymore than one can redefine marriage (oh I fit that in there [smile]).

However, that said, since you don't actually let us participate in betas, some of us fan boys are willing to pay to do so :-)

Posts 8
Thomas Carpenter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 24 2015 7:57 AM

To say "you don't have to play with" a SELLING POINT if you don't want to and use that as an argument for something NOT being a work in progress is interesting to say the least  Big Smile

Also a product sold as "Old Testament" this or that and it only covers 20% or fewer of the OT, is either beta (more to come) or misleading. I prefer to think of it as beta because I don't want to think of Logos as misleading us.

David Paul:

Graham Owen:
I get that I have access to some new tools and resources but they are clearly a work in progress

Are they clearly a work in progress? That isn't the impression I get. The new Web App is offered in a beta build, but you don't have to play with it if you don't want to.

Graham Owen:
I can see no reason why I should not access them on a pay as you go model i.e. subscribe for a month if I think they would help rather than have a permanent subscription.

Are you really Graham? I thought he was more articulate than this. Rather than try to unravel what you said here, I will just point out that you can subscribe or not as you see fit, or unsubscribe or not, as you see fit. You get a month free, so in reality you don't even have to subscribe, unless you decide you want to. I'm not sure what you mean by "permanent subscription", unless you mean a subscription you decide you won't ever cancel.

Robert J Smith:

Seems to me from the posts I have seen about Logos Now so far, that you are paying to Beta test the new tools.

Then you may need glasses...the only beta is the Web App, but all of the other tools are fully tested and ready to go.

Posts 27553
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 24 2015 8:20 AM

Thomas Carpenter:
The state and quality of Logos Now, at this point, is the very definition of beta: incomplete data sets, features "soon to come", and stability issues accompanied by a long list of, "we'll be doing this soon."

For clarification: "Logos Now" isnt "in beta." Logos Now includes some features which are "in beta" (such as the web app). It also includes features which are NOT "in beta," but are continuing to be worked on as Logos always is.

Thomas Carpenter:
However, that said, since you don't actually let us participate in betas

That simply isnt true. Faithlife has open beta testing for both desktop and android platforms. There is also beta testing for the iOS apps, but due to restrictions Apple places on developers, the testing is more closed (recent changes to Apple's policies has opened up beta testing wider... but it is still a closed system).

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 8
Thomas Carpenter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 24 2015 11:28 AM

I stand corrected on the allowance to beta test. But the arguments for saying Logos Now is not in beta are still far too week. Two key components of it are incomplete: Old Testament and Web App. Web App is so horrifically incomplete, it would NEVER qualify as beta in ANY IT organization in any real company. It's not even alpha. The Old Testament portion is very misleading as, from the main Logos Now marketing page, you have to dig two more pages deep to find out it only covers a small portion of OT books. It should be loudly proclaimed from the start. Evidence that this is a problem is in the threads of discussion where folks are surprised when they find that it doesn't cover all the books.

So again, I was wrong and we may have the option to get into betas, but I am not wrong to suggest that Logos Now is best thought of as beta at this point. Too much of it, that is after all what you're paying for, is incomplete.

I still signed up and plan to stay signed up, but people should know clearly what they're paying for and this discussion, thankfully, brings reality to the forefront.

Page 1 of 1 (17 items) | RSS