[resolved] Note Files Assignment in Highlighting Question

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, May 16 2015 10:04 PM

(Probably) a dumb question, but I can't find anything on it:  Why do some of the highlighting palettes that I've created show up in the drop down list where I can assign other highlighting palettes to them and some don't?

Second question: Why can't Solid Colors and Emphasis Markup be deleted?

I never have like the Logos notes 'feature' very well, and dutifully ignored it for the most part, but now I'm trying to get better at using it, which would require understanding it. Since there's no manual (and yes, I checked the help file...nothing on this...checked the Wiki too...same nuthin'), I'm at the mercy of those in the know. (Sometimes I wonder if Logos is a software package for Gnostics...).

In the SS below, I have a group of Notes files that I can assign a palette...but they don't show up in my list of highlights (Group A). Why?

I also have a couple with a similar but slightly different name. Are they connected (Group B)?

I'd really like to assign Solid Colors and Emphasis Markup to a generic palette so the notes would be in the same place, but none of the generic palettes I created for this purpose show up in the Highlighters. I suppose I could go create a new note file and possibly make it work that way, but if I do, will it show up here and can I modify its style from here?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 16 2015 10:41 PM

I'm sorry but I don't understand all your questions but I'll try to help you get started.

1. There are palettes that are delivered by Faithlife such as solid colors, emphasis markup, highlighter pens ... which you cannot delete. Palettes that you create for yourself can be deleted.

2. You assign a note file to a palette not the reverse i.e. you can define a default locations for the highlights created by a palette. The options are: Palette-specific note file (whether or not it currently exists), the Most Recent Note File or any note file currently existing in my documents.

If you can clarify your other questions in light of this information, I'll try to answer.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 16 2015 11:03 PM

MJ. Smith:
If you can clarify your other questions in light of this information, I'll try to answer.

I guess one of the bigger problems for my finite mind is not being able to tell which items in the list are created as Notes files and which are created as Highlighting palettes. This makes your point number two tougher in practice (I want to create a highlighting style and then assign other styles to write their notes there.)

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, May 16 2015 11:53 PM

Okay, let's step all the way back to step one.

  1. To create a note, one selects the text that the note applies to and right clicks.
  2. One the right hand side of the context menu, one selects reference or selection. If reference is selected all occurrences get the note (e.g. Jn 3:16 in all Bibles). If selection is selected the note goes only against this text.
  3. Near the bottom of the left hand side, you have a choice of what file the note will go into. If the file you want doesn't show you can open it from the Documents menu; if the file you want doesn't exist, you can create it from the Documents menu.
  4. You then are presented with a note to which you can add text, change the note icon (left click on icon) etc. etc.
  5. On the left hand side of the note title is a drop down menu that lets you do some more advanced features and to delete the note.
  6. If you want to create a note that isn't attached to any text you can use the Add note feature in your file header

That is the basic note function.

If you want to apply a highlight to the text:

  1. Select the text you wish to highlight
  2. Click on the style of highlight you want. Note the palette is completely separate from Note files. Palette simply name a default Note file to receive the highlight notes.
  3. The text is highlighted and a note is created in the note file specified by the palette. Note that highlights are always by selection.
  4. If you open the note file specified by the palette, you may add text to the note but generally users seem to prefer keeping their highlights separate from their highlights. While I combine the two, I'd recommend that you get comfortable with how both notes and highlighting work before combining the two.

What you are trying to do is have multiple palettes use the same default note file if I understand you correctly. That is no problem - you can set the palettes with the relevant styles to the same default file.

If you want to make a clipping:

  1. Select the text you wish to clip.
  2. Right click - you must choose selection
  3. Select add clipping from the lower left portion of the context menu
  4. Clipping files behave exactly as they do for Notes

After you have that down, ask how to attach to multiple passages, or to things like lemmas etc.

If this doesn't make sense, ask and I'll try again.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 17 2015 9:40 AM

Your list of pallets makes me cringe. Tongue Tied

i think the behavior that notes are directed to folders through the highlighter pallet is... Well, I won't say. Wink I have chosen to thumb my nose at FL and recommend using the "most recent note file" behavior... That may or may not work for you. 

I have two kinds of note documents: 1) resource specific ones (the majority) and 2) thematic ones. If I were preaching regularly, I would likely have 3) project specific (temporary) ones. I highlight a good deal. For the most part, it is for reading comprehension and so that I can skim the resource later and get a feel for the book (memory aid). I think that most people don't care to have note documents for most of their highlights... They just want to highlight. This was the behavior back in 4.(2?) and earlier. I <hope> that resource specific note files are made an option in the future. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 17 2015 10:53 AM

As an example of why I say be comfortable with the basics first, Here's the first part of my highlights - Alabama should be in a different style of shock. Wink

My note files are function or project specific and I use very little generic "isn't this interesting" highlighting. Users who use a significant amount of "isn't this interesting" highlighting tend to need the ability to filter their highlights and export them. My needs are more viewing and switching between different types of highlighting. However, for Mobile Ed courses I do want my notes all in a single course file and do use "isn't this interesting" and "outstanding questions" highlighting/notes.

My point is that the Logos system is very flexible -- so you need to take the time to understand the basics and to know what you want to achieve.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 17 2015 11:48 AM

MJ. Smith:
Alabama should be in a different style of shock.

I am. Stick out tongue

MJ. Smith:
My point is that the Logos system is very flexible

...but not as "flexible" as it should be. I still have a very hard time coming to terms with making pallets for note documents. Even though you use highlighters differently than I do, I would still think it easier (in most cases) to have better control over note documents (i.e. "add new note to [drop down list with search box]")

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 17 2015 3:16 PM

alabama24:

. I still have a very hard time coming to terms with making pallets for note documents.

I don't see it as making palettes for note documents - which to me implies some precedence of the note document. I see palettes as the one higher in the hierarchy. Palettes are universal but may be assigned a default note file. I do see the need for easier specification of which file a note goes into but I am able to get a reasonable work flow. I have seen some requests for help where getting a reasonable workflow is very difficult given what the user really wants.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 17 2015 4:39 PM

MJ. Smith:
What you are trying to do is have multiple palettes use the same default note file if I understand you correctly.

Yes, in circum certainstances. The four default palettes,

have little meaning to me, but since they are there to stay, I'd like to be able to use them, but want them to store the associated note in a different file than the palette-specific file. I want them all in a generic bible study file. The instinctive thing to do is create this palette from the Highlighting menu. But that won't work, as the created file won't be one of the available ones in the drop down about where to send notes. The file has to be created as a note file first.

This is one part of the software where the FL programmers faced a scenario that required a certain solution (the ability to turn highlighting on and off, use it between different resources, etc. necessitated the creation of a 'document' to handle the highlights), but they didn't think through the usability implications of the average non-programmer user of the software and how they would react to the method/presentation. It is one of the parts of the software where they didn't get out of the box and do any thinking, and it needs to be completely re-thought (IMO).

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 17 2015 6:34 PM

Doc B:
I'd like to be able to use them, but want them to store the associated note in a different file than the palette-specific file. I want them all in a generic bible study file.

You can do that. The three behaviors:

  1. Save in palette specific note document
  2. Save in most recent note document
  3. Save in note document of your choice. 

Doc B:
The instinctive thing to do is create this palette from the Highlighting menu. But that won't work, as the created file won't be one of the available ones in the drop down about where to send notes. The file has to be created as a note file first.

This is because you are confusing pallets with note documents, which is Faithlife's fault for how they designed this. 

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 17 2015 7:55 PM

Doc B:

[This is one part of the software where the FL programmers faced a scenario that required a certain solution (the ability to turn highlighting on and off, use it between different resources, etc. necessitated the creation of a 'document' to handle the highlights), but they didn't think through the usability implications of the average non-programmer user of the software and how they would react to the method/presentation. It is one of the parts of the software where they didn't get out of the box and do any thinking, and it needs to be completely re-thought (IMO).

Unfortunately this is one place where I cannot "think like an average user" partially because I never went down the path that confuses people and second because I'm retired from IT and see from a data design perspective exactly why it works as it does, Try thinking of it this way. The fundamental definition of a note is that a note holds information and relates it to a location or multiple locations. Notes live in note files - always. Notes and note files ALWAYS have these characteristics - period and end.

For for ALL notes we have:

  • location or locations to which the note applies
  • a file in which the note is stored
  • information carried by the note

The obvious question is then what kind of information can the note contain?

  1. The note may carry a title and user entered text
  2. The note may carrying instructions for highlighting the text including the information encoded in that highlighting
  3. The note may attachable searchable labels to the text

Where does one define highlighting and label information? on a Highlighting palette. A palette doesn't carry information ever. It is a place where you assign meaning to highlighting and relate label names with their attributes. A palette serves like a dictionary to the visual language (meaning of highlights) and labels (attributes you can assign and search for).

I recognize from the forum questions that this structure and relationship between the parts is not clear to many users. But to me this makes sense. By way of analogy I thin palette is like a form, a note is a filled out form with attachments, a note file is like the file folder in the file cabinet. Just remember the same form may be in many file folders and the same file folder can have many kinds of forms  ,,,

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 17 2015 9:36 PM

alabama24:
This is because you are confusing pallets with note documents, which is Faithlife's fault for how they designed this. 

That is EXACTLY what I was trying to say, though I didn't pull it off quite as succinctly as you did.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 17 2015 10:16 PM

Doc B:

alabama24:
This is because you are confusing pallets with note documents, which is Faithlife's fault for how they designed this. 

That is EXACTLY what I was trying to say, though I didn't pull it off quite as succinctly as you did.

Okay guys - one is a document; the other is a tool. Isn't that a pretty big hint that they are different things. I'm not saying that the UI can't be improved but you have to give some concrete suggestions or specifics of why they led you to confuse the two. Complaining without anything concrete beyond "I'm confused" doesn't help anyone.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, May 17 2015 11:49 PM

alabama24:
I <hope> that resource specific note files are made an option in the future. 

I'd personally like to see (at least) 3 additions: Resource Specific, Series Specific, & Author Specific.

The Series Specific option would be most useful in e.g. commentary series where there are multiple resources and multiple authors.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 18 2015 12:06 AM

Reuben Helmuth:

alabama24:
I <hope> that resource specific note files are made an option in the future. 

I'd personally like to see (at least) 3 additions: Resource Specific, Series Specific, & Author Specific.

Would it be correct to say you are proposing that one be able to define a default note file for a resource (and by assigning the same file to all resources in a series, the default for a series)? Assigning defaults to authors is considerably more complicated because you can end up with multiple defaults. Keeping track of the priority of the multiple defaults would be a nightmare for the user.

However, if people are already confused by assigning a default note file to a palette, is adding another type of default going to increase confusion? Would having the context menu have two options - most recent note file and most resent note file for this resource work?

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 18 2015 10:38 AM

Reuben Helmuth:
I'd personally like to see (at least) 3 additions: Resource Specific, Series Specific, & Author Specific.

For clarification: My long time suggestion and practice of "resource specific" note documents (which MP may or may not have borrowed for a blog post) is for a number of reasons including:

  1. To keep note documents small. There are often problems with large note documents.
  2. To help organize documents and be able to find them.
  3. To be able to share highlights from a SINGLE resource and not have to share highlights from ALL resources. 
  4. To be able to "highlight and forget about it" for most highlighting usage.

"Series" and "Author" specific go well beyond those reasons. Are you truly wanting "author specific" note documents, or are you wanting a way to view all highlights you have made from a particular author? Those are two different things.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 18 2015 11:14 AM

alabama24:
My long time suggestion and practice of "resource specific" note documents

This is done and scheduled to ship with 6.4. You'll be able to set palettes to save all markups in resource-specific note documents.

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 18 2015 11:23 AM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

alabama24:
My long time suggestion and practice of "resource specific" note documents

This is done and scheduled to ship with 6.4. You'll be able to set palettes to save all markups in resource-specific note documents.

Thanks! 

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Levi Durfey | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 18 2015 11:27 AM

This "sounds" like something I've been hoping for also. How did you imagine it working? Would the "resource specific" note document be automatically created for each resource you highlight in? That's what I've been dreaming of.

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Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 18 2015 11:39 AM

Integ:

This "sounds" like something I've been hoping for also. How did you imagine it working? Would the "resource specific" note document be automatically created for each resource you highlight in? That's what I've been dreaming of.

Yes!

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