Do you want every ebook in the world in Logos?

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 21 2015 1:11 PM

MJ. Smith:

David Taylor Jr:

MJ. Smith:

David Taylor Jr:

That being said, the reason it is a big deal with specific to erotica is it is not just fiction but photos also offered by the publishers. If these are included there is a chance that it could pop up in a search, random book, etc, even if it is not purposefully done. That would cause many to stumble.  That is wrong.

I am sad that you have so little trust in your fellow believers and wonder how well they cope in the world. If one is to feed the hungry, visit the prisoners, tend to the sick ... then one has to be able to accept the challenges of being confronted by just about anything .... and still see the face of Christ in the one you assist.

That being said, It has nothing to do with little trust and I am not sure how you could construe my statement as such.

"Trust" was apparently not the correct term to communicate the belief that your fellow Christians are able to click past an offensive or irrelevant image. From my perspective God brings forth heroic actions from common people - another click shouldn't be a problem.

Hey MJ, I sent you a reply via message on faithlife.com 

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 21 2015 1:12 PM

Super.Tramp:

m

David Taylor Jr:

Super.Tramp:

David Taylor Jr:
which is why my answer is still an emphatic NO.

For the record: my answer is an emphatic YES on a 10/90 deal.

You seem to have a very attacking attitude about you. There was no reason for your comment you already told us that and you seem to be trying to antagonize.

This post was in fact the first time I said "Yes" on this subject. I used the same language you used to repeat your opinion. I am sorry you feel you are being attacked when someone disagrees with you. 

I would love for you to go back and read each reply you have given to something I have written and try to read it from my perspective. You will probably understand how I or anyone else might feel like you are being attacking. Other members have mentioned this about some of your posts as well.

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178294z | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 21 2015 1:24 PM
Point of clarity. The Logos ecosystem has the Loeb library, correct? What's the difference between 50 Shades and many of the great Greek plays? Many of the great Greek plays are vulgar are they not? Vulgar or not they are useful for research and cultural understanding. I'm inclined to have the whole catalog 50 Shades and all.
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Unix | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 21 2015 1:42 PM

JRS, I understand very well what You are saying here, and if there were no standards to be found regarding what should be excluded I would perhaps agree with You, but there are, as has been specified by MJ. Smith: whom I cite further below:

JRS:
IMO I think FL should either offer 100% of the material (without any pricing gimmicks on the questionable items), or none.  Forget the 10/90 attempt at appeasement.  All or nothing.
[...]
You might also try to make the point, "Well what about the appearance of evil &etc. especially in the eyes of the world?"  Then I suggest that FL close up shop because they are already selling lots of theologically heretical resources which have an even greater potential for furtively undermining one's pristine, twinkle-dust, mountaintop existence.  Far, far more dangerous on a surreptitious level than the in-your-face vulgarity discussed in this thread for the past dozen or so pages.
Why force FL to try to be the regulating principle in this area of your life?  Why not act and think like mature Christians and self-regulate your impulses to view, purchase, and to read questionable materials?


Here's what she posted, I highlighted a few things in the post:

MJ. Smith:

Some points to consider:

  • Why are users focused on erotica? From the perspective of various users, the books promoting abortion, war, capital punishment, social injustice, magic, heresy ... are equally or more offensive. What is critical is that we know (and teach our children) how to select, read and evaluate all the materials that the world presents to us. I have seen some very sad cases where children were not prepared for college or work because they'd never been allowed to choose their own friends, select their own books and music ...
  • Where has the awe of God gone? I never trust the judgment of someone who tells me what Jesus or God would do. The Trinity seems quite capable of acting in surprising ways that only make sense to humans (at least me) in retrospect. And the Trinity seems amazingly good at making something good come out of situations we humans would not expect to be able to produce anything good.
  • Are you currently boycotting businesses that sell immoral goods or engage in unethical behavior? Think of the boycott that help bring down apartheid; the bishop who risked jail rather than pay taxes for an unjust war. Do you currently purchase anything from Amazon? Zondervan? Oxford University Press? From my perspective, as long as Logos remains a separate arm of the Faithlife company and maintains integrity within its domain (much like Zondervan), I'm in no position to hold them to different standards than the other companies I deal with.


The list of authors, publishers, stores, goods, and businesses I avoid or even manage to totally boycott, is always going to be large and constantly growing. Making choices is a responsibility. The point is, if I continue to buy from Faithlife for thousands of $ I'm supporting what they do, even the publishers and titles and authors I really don't want to support. Even if I'm being very very selective all the time I'm supporting that they offer lots of books, because they make profit from what I pay them no matter what exactly I buy the grab the $ they've profited and use it to promote, offer and support titles and products I can't stand that they are selling. I've already specified in my previous posts (on page 5 and 10) by offering some examples what that is and could be.
A corporation has to think about costs and amount of labour, that's true. Trying to keep the worst 10% out at all times is tricky and requires manhours. But the community can help, and like I suggested FL can be very discriminative in the first place about which exact publishers to offer and I trust they will be. Faithlife should also run searches in the newly offered books to see if there are an alarming count of words which would be reasons to exclude books - that way they could with some accuracy keep out categories of books, for example ocult (except that Shamanism and Wicca need not necessarily be kept out), Islam, patriotism, how to become a millionaire, seduction techniques, partying, promotion of drug and harmful/addictive substance intakes, certain artists, profanity, and words like: "idiot", "mentally ill", "looser".

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 21 2015 2:05 PM

David Taylor Jr:
I would love for you to go back and read each reply you have given to something I have written and try to read it from my perspective. You will probably understand how I or anyone else might feel like you are being attacking. Other members have mentioned this about some of your posts as well.

I will take the time to re-read my posts in this thread with that in mind. I did not intend to attack others personally. Please give me a little time to complete my review.

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Al Het | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 21 2015 2:11 PM

Super.Tramp:
Just wondering, are you aware of Bob's subsequent post about a 10/90 option?

I am aware of it.

Super.Tramp:
If he secures such a deal this whole argument is moot.

It seems that this does have significant bearing on this argument for some, and not for others.  I haven't been arguing for or against what Logos should do in this situation since my first email, which even then didn't address the morality issue at all. 

My comments since then have related only to how you and others have been mis-characterizing the opposing argument.  THAT is still relevant, as long as people who claim Christ are discussing on this forum.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 21 2015 2:35 PM

Super.Tramp:

David Taylor Jr:
I would love for you to go back and read each reply you have given to something I have written and try to read it from my perspective. You will probably understand how I or anyone else might feel like you are being attacking. Other members have mentioned this about some of your posts as well.

I will take the time to re-read my posts in this thread with that in mind. I did not intend to attack others personally. Please give me a little time to complete my review.

Thank you I most certainly will.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 21 2015 2:36 PM

Super.Tramp:
Ted, you are late to the party. In a later post Bob said a 90% deal may be attainable where Faithlife could nix 10% of the catalogue.

Thanks for pointing this out to me. Still I am a bit concerned about the direction FL seems to be going and hope Bob gives due consideration to some of the comments expressed in this thread as I know from experience he does. Hopefully then, as you have pointed out, there is nothing to worry about.

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Doug Hanna | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 21 2015 5:11 PM

Keith Larson:

Some thoughts:

It seems that there is a need for four book stores:

  1. Tagged Biblical Research Books = Logos
  2. Tagged Academic Research Books = Noet
  3. EPub Christian Books = Vyrso
  4. EPub General Books = “New Store”

This being the case there need to be a search option at each of the stores to show results from all for book stores. It is already a pain to have to search both Logos and Vyrso to see if I can purchase a Christian book I am interested in.

I dig this.

At the end of the day, a user's Logos library becomes more valuable with every book. I would much rather have the OPTION to buy any book than constantly being frustrated that books my professors are requiring for class aren't available.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 21 2015 6:15 PM

David Taylor Jr:

Super.Tramp:

David Taylor Jr:
I would love for you to go back and read each reply you have given to something I have written and try to read it from my perspective. You will probably understand how I or anyone else might feel like you are being attacking. Other members have mentioned this about some of your posts as well.

I will take the time to re-read my posts in this thread with that in mind. I did not intend to attack others personally. Please give me a little time to complete my review.

Thank you I most certainly will.

I just reviewed all my interactions in this thread.  I found a couple of barbed posts and one straw man but I did not see any attacks on persons, just the issues discussed. Though I do apologize for coming across that way. 

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, May 21 2015 6:41 PM

Super.Tramp:

David Taylor Jr:

Super.Tramp:

David Taylor Jr:
I would love for you to go back and read each reply you have given to something I have written and try to read it from my perspective. You will probably understand how I or anyone else might feel like you are being attacking. Other members have mentioned this about some of your posts as well.

I will take the time to re-read my posts in this thread with that in mind. I did not intend to attack others personally. Please give me a little time to complete my review.

Thank you I most certainly will.

I just reviewed all my interactions in this thread.  I found a couple of barbed posts and one straw man but I did not see any attacks on persons, just the issues discussed. Though I do apologize for coming across that way. 

Apology Accepted Smile

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 22 2015 2:48 AM

David Taylor Jr:
personal attacks and sarcasm people with the viewpoint of morality

It seems that your claim to be "people with the viewpoint of morality" is a rather pointed attack directed toward anyone who disagrees with you on this question.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 22 2015 4:51 AM

Jack Caviness:

David Taylor Jr:
personal attacks and sarcasm people with the viewpoint of morality

It seems that your claim to be "people with the viewpoint of morality" is a rather pointed attack directed toward anyone who disagrees with you on this question.

No that was a misunderstanding. What I was saying was people who are arguing the morality viewpoint of why it should not be included. In other words, saying it shouldn't be included on moral grounds. That being said, not sure why you felt the need to open this back up as it had already been reconciled.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 22 2015 8:02 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Jack Caviness:

David Taylor Jr:
personal attacks and sarcasm people with the viewpoint of morality

It seems that your claim to be "people with the viewpoint of morality" is a rather pointed attack directed toward anyone who disagrees with you on this question.

No that was a misunderstanding. What I was saying was people who are arguing the morality viewpoint of why it should not be included. In other words, saying it shouldn't be included on moral grounds. That being said, not sure why you felt the need to open this back up as it had already been reconciled.

As I should have expected, you missed my point. I was commenting on you claiming to have "the viewpoint of morality" as if those who disagree with you do so on immoral grounds. I do not believe that those who advocate Logos offering a wider range of resources lack morality, but that is what you imply whether you will admit it or not.

BTW: I stated my caution on this issue very early in this discussion. "Would you be inviting the camel to put his nose into the tent?" 

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 22 2015 8:13 AM

Jack Caviness:

David Taylor Jr:

Jack Caviness:

David Taylor Jr:
personal attacks and sarcasm people with the viewpoint of morality

It seems that your claim to be "people with the viewpoint of morality" is a rather pointed attack directed toward anyone who disagrees with you on this question.

No that was a misunderstanding. What I was saying was people who are arguing the morality viewpoint of why it should not be included. In other words, saying it shouldn't be included on moral grounds. That being said, not sure why you felt the need to open this back up as it had already been reconciled.

As I should have expected, you missed my point. I was commenting on you claiming to have "the viewpoint of morality" as if those who disagree with you do so on immoral grounds. I do not believe that those who advocate Logos offering a wider range of resources lack morality, but that is what you imply whether you will admit it or not.

BTW: I stated my caution on this issue very early in this discussion. "Would you be inviting the camel to put his nose into the tent?" 

I explained that was not the intent of the statement and I apologize if you interpreted it that way. However, I would say putting erotic fiction in the store would most definitely be an immoral act.

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 22 2015 8:18 AM

An apology is more often appropriate than an explanation and does not necessarily imply concession.

It is good to occasionally go back and read what we have written, trying to understand what others hear in the words.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 22 2015 8:20 AM

May I suggest that the dispute turn that this thread has taken be abandoned? It is overloading the thread and does not advance the main question. There has been little that has been added to the bottom-line general answers and arguments:

  1. Some say 'yes' because they see the resulting access as great gain and think that it is either acceptable / realistic for FL to have to distribute materials such as erotica. 
  2. Some say 'yes' also because they see the resulting access as great gain, but with the added element that they believe that there can be some arrangements that either effectively eliminate the offensive material (the 90%-10% approach), make it inaccessible (hiding them, not promoting them, using prohibitive pricing) or reduces the availability of such materials sufficiently to make it a solution they can live with. 
  3. Some say 'no' because they do not believe that it is appropriate for a company that claims to be serving the Church to distribute erotica under any circumstance. They do not believe that the arrangements that have been suggested would eliminate such materials altogether and so they are not real solutions. They also believe that it is wrong for Christian users of the software to encourage a company like FL to take on a venture that will result in distributing such materials.

Although a variety of supporting arguments have been proposed, I believe that this pretty much covers it...

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JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 22 2015 8:41 AM

Francis:
Although a variety of supporting arguments have been proposed, I believe that this pretty much covers it..

Yes

I would have anticipated that Bob would have begun with taking on one or two smaller publishers who also had a number of potential number of interesting theological works which would give everyone involved an idea of what it was going to look like, especially the number of really offensive works, and demonstrating that filtering 10% of the total would cover them.

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Ted Hans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 22 2015 9:14 AM

Francis:
Some say 'yes' for the same reasons as above but with the added element that they believe that there can be some arrangements that either effectively eliminate the offensive material (the 90%-10% approach), make it inaccessible (hiding them, not promoting them, or using prohibitive pricing) or reduces the availability of such materials sufficiently to make it a solution they can live with.

Francis help me out here, as i must be missing something, obviously i am in the no camp.

Why do you think that the 90%-10% approach does not solve the problem? Is it your understanding that the 90%-10% approach would still mean that FL licensed erotic materials? I have not followed this thread closely.

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, May 22 2015 9:32 AM

Ted Hans:
Is it your understanding that the 90%-10% approach would still mean that FL licensed erotic materials?

The answer of the proponents of 'no' suggest that they are not interested in a solution that merely reduces how much such material would be distributed by FL. With that in mind, there is skepticism that a 10% clean-up would eliminate it all.

For my part, I am skeptical also about the realism of this arrangement: it opens up the floodgates, as it were, in terms of content since entire catalogs will be dumped at a time, it would require Logos to have the manpower (and matching commitment) to comb the collection effectively at the gate, and finally, it will place Logos staff in the difficult (and most likely controversial) position of having to make constant choices as to whether material is a yea or a nay. This they may do already with regard to suggested resources, but it seems to me that the scenario discussed here is on a much larger scale.

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