Do you want every ebook in the world in Logos?

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JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 5:56 AM
What I think is hilarious is the argument that goes something like this: 1. Some users saying "no" are preoccupied with sexual sin 2. there are other sins being ignored by the "no" crowd 3. Therefore the "yes" crowd is right! Where is the fallacy hound when you need her? Wink

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 7:43 AM

alabama24:
What I think is hilarious is the argument that goes something like this: 1. Some users saying "no" are preoccupied with sexual sin 2. there are other sins being ignored by the "no" crowd 3. Therefore the "yes" crowd is right! Where is the fallacy hound when you need her? Wink


My post was more a series of observations; rather than an argument for "yes".

Though I do support the expansion, especially if Bob feels like he can make it difficult to obtain (or block entirely) the worst of the material. Beyond that what I buy is between me and God, and what Bob sells is between him and God.

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 8:09 AM

abondservant:
what I buy is between me and God

Guess that means that you are not married Hmm

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Tim Taylor | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 8:10 AM

Jack Caviness:

abondservant:
what I buy is between me and God

Guess that means that you are not married Hmm

Hahaha! That was a good one! Wink

Posts 525
Kent | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 8:26 AM

alabama24:
What I think is hilarious is the argument that goes something like this: 1. Some users saying "no" are preoccupied with sexual sin 2. there are other sins being ignored by the "no" crowd 3. Therefore the "yes" crowd is right! Where is the fallacy hound when you need her? Wink

Bob asked for opinions so we should not point to others who have different ones than us. Just state yours and be done. My view is that sexual sin is a problem and the distribution of sexual material should be taken seriously. To say it is ok to sin and passively or actively promote sin because other sins are present does not justify the action. I don't want the material made available to people whether it is being sold by Faithlife or Amz. Nevertheless, I will still buy the materials I need where they are.

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 9:07 AM

abondservant:
"Tiffany" (I had a cousin named this, and she hated her name saying it was a stripper name)

sad to read this Broken Heart

Tiffany is greek meaning the appearance of God - from Θεοφάνεια

"Behind the Name: Meaning, Origin and History of the Name Tiffany. Medieval form of THEOPHANIA. This name was traditionally given to girls born on the Epiphany (January 6), the festival commemorating the visit of the Magi to the infant Jesus.

Charles Lewis Tiffany and related predominate whenever I read or hear the name.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 9:32 AM

Jack Caviness:

abondservant:
what I buy is between me and God

Guess that means that you are not married Hmm

Nope - not married.

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Rich DeRuiter | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 10:30 AM

Bob Pritchett:
If we could offer every ebook Amazon offers, but only if we did offer every ebook Amazon offers, should we?

Yes, without question. I would trust that the pricing would be the same in Logos format as it would if we bought it from Amazon, or if there was a higher charge for the Logos format, it would be modest.

Bob Pritchett:
And if so, how?

I haven't scanned all the responses, I think offering these works through Noet makes the most sense. But it would be really helpful if when searching for titles by "Keller" in the Logos store, that a link to search results in Noet (and Vyrso?) would appear, when there are resources in another Faithlife store. I'd really not like to have to search 3 stores, not knowing where to find a particular resource I'm looking for. A new, 4th store is another possibility, but it doesn't really solve any real ethical problems.

Bob Pritchett:
What if we can't license one without the other? Should we not take any of the titles then?

This is an ethical question that ultimately only Faithlife can answer: is the compromise of allowing a potential sale of "X" sufficiently justified by the certain sale of "Y," when the only way to sell "Y" is to include "X" in the sales catalog. The marketplace is full of such ethical issues and they aren't simple. Medicine is also full of such ethical issues, as is politics and government and many other spheres.

If the agreement does not prohibit it, you could simply make those sorts of resources more difficult to find, not promote them on any of your pages and/or include warnings about the type of literature a customer is considering (and then make the "warning" a non-searchable item!). If it eased your conscience more, you could also choose to not receive any profit from certain sales, or price such things high enough that purchasing through Amazon (e.g.) would be more cost effective. In fact, if you priced everything in your catalog $1 higher than Amazon, you would redirect the sale of many items to Amazon, so that we would buy only those items we prefer to have in Logos format--and prefer it enough to pay an extra $1 for. 

However, given Faithlife's customer base, this question may be largely and merely theoretical. Practically speaking, sales of morally objectionable material are not likely to those who live in the Faithlife world.

Faithlife already sells stuff I strongly disagree with and wish it didn't sell. Some of the garbage that is sold as 'truth' is just as harmful (IMHO) as erotic fiction. I won't mention specifics here, since I don't want to start a firestorm, but Faithlife already sells some resources that offend me deeply. Some offensive material is just more obviously harmful. But I think it's right for Logos to offer such resources. That leads me to conclude that Faithlife's current policy/value, of becoming a broad library would be served well by this move, and I support it. In my opinion the value of Logos goes up, and my dependence on Amazon goes down.

But if there's anyway to accept only those titles that would be included in the BL-BX section of the library of Congress, this would be a no-brainer.

 Help links: WIKI;  Logos 6 FAQ. (Phil. 2:14, NIV)

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 10:35 AM

Tim Taylor:
Would the leaders of Faithlife have a clear conscience selling secular books to secular people in order to fund God's work?

I believe the answer is yes and pray that it is.

Faithlife has and continues to sell secular books. Much of the Noet catalog is obvious. Below are early examples.

4/1998: The Atlas CD-ROM Library is a series of instructional guides and catalogs for Model Railroading enthusiasts.

2/2000: The Briza Botanical Library is the first comprehensive botanical library on CD-ROM and features four of the most popular titles released by Briza Books in South Africa: Making the Most of Indigenous Trees, Mesembs of the World, Guide to Grasses of Southern Africa, and Medicinal Plants of South Africa.

7/1998: The American Multimedia Archive contains more than 2,000 hyperlinked images that depict the most important people, places, events, and issues in the development of the United States. Also includes video and audio clips from the National Archives, the Library of Congress and others. Based on the U.S. History Standards for Grades 5-12, The American Multimedia Archive focuses on core curriculum topics.

9/1999: Facts On File's African-American History and Culture CD-ROM Encyclopediacontains an exhaustive library of contemporary issues as well as African American culture and history

5/1999: OMNI's first project is a CD-ROM featuring Administrator's Education Law for K-12 in seven different states using the Logos Library System. In addition, the OMNI CD will feature Education Law and School Regulations sections for the state of Virginia. This is the first of many planned projects. OMNI will be working with a number of associations and publishers to create CD-ROM titles using the Logos Library System. 

3/2000: Pharos Dictionaries on CD-ROM is a 5-in-1 collection that includes the impressive quintet of Pharos's Major Dictionary, Bilingual Phrase Dictionary, New Words, Verklarende Afrikaanse Woordeboek and Groot Tesourus van Afrikaans on a single CD-ROM

2001: Collins Dictionaries 4-in-1 on CD-ROM contains the 21st Century Edition of theCollins English Dictionary, Collins Thesaurus, Collins Quotation Finder, and 50,000 audio clips from the Collins Cobuild Pronunciation Guide.

2001: The Pharos Speller CD-ROM is an Afrikaans language resource for use with all the components of Microsoft® Office 97 & 2000. It contains about a quarter-million words from Pharos's authoritative dictionaries and corpus of contemporary Afrikaans.

3/2000: The South Africa Survey 2000 CD-ROM is an internationally acclaimed yearbook on South African living conditions, population, education, labour, business, the economy, health and welfare, violence and crime, the arts and culture, politics, and government.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 11:27 AM

Rich DeRuiter:
Yes, without question.

Thank you for the well stated response.

Rich DeRuiter:
That leads me to conclude that Faithlife's current policy/value, of becoming a broad library would be served well by this move, and I support it.

This is has been on ongoing policy/value. The examples in my previous post were developed on the Logos Library System v2 platform. With Libronix the potential was even greater but epublishing, no longer a novelty, was still too new for many publishers.

"About Libronix 

Libronix Corporation delivers technology and services that help publishers build one-to-one relationships with users through an integrated, commerce-enabled digital library system.

Libronix Corporation is a wholly-owned subsidiary of Logos Research Systems, Inc.Logos was founded in 1992 to develop high-end electronic reference products for the religious reference market. In 1999 Logos launched Libronix in order to focus on the needs of publishers."

The Faithlife rebranding does seem to bear upon the matter.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 11:40 AM

What is a Digital Library System?

A digital library system is the critical point of contact between the information provider and the information consumer.

While a digital library may consist of nothing more than a collection of electronic resources on a CD-ROM or web site, a digital library system is more than just the resources. A digital library system supports an extra layer of functionality -- the functions that would, in a physical library, be the responsibility of the librarian.

  • For the consumer a digital library system is a one-stop information workstation -- a place to purchase titles, borrow resources, explore catalogs, search databases, cite bibliographic data, read articles and books, take notes and collaborate with others. It is a place to extend inquiries beyond the desktop to remote web-based library collections, databases and other libraries containing both digital and print resources. 

  • For the publisher a digital library system is a commerce-enabled gatekeeper that tracks rights and permissions, respects copyrights, and increases revenue opportunities. 

  • For the librarian a digital library represents a common workstation for a wide range of disparate digital materials from multiple vendors. The common user interface and integrated search window greatly reduces the burden of library staff support and handholding. The digital library also provides connectivity to the library’s patron access catalog allowing the user to browse library holdings and digital full text materials from the same workstation. 

The Libronix Digital Library System is designed to combine the power of direct high speed access to data on the user's own PC while simultaneously processing additional data on the world wide web. This creates a powerful dual system that takes full advantage of the user's high-speed hard disk drives, powerful desktop processors and virtually limitless remote data over the Internet.

The Five Functions of a Digital Library System

A digital library system, like a real librarian, facilitates five key functions of a library:

  • Acquisition
  • Cataloging
  • Retrieval
  • Interpretation
  • Sharing

The Web, traditional online databases, hand-held electronic books, and CD-ROM products have all addressed two or three of these functions, but until now few systems have addressed all five.

The Libronix DLS is able to address all five functions by combining powerful software on the desktop machine with information and processes on the Internet.

Acquisition

Acquisition is the process by which the consumer selects digital products to borrow, rent, or purchase.

Acquisition is essentially the e-commerce component of the digital library system. The Libronix DLS facilitates acquisition through the use of "metadata" packaged with the individual digital titles. Metadata includes both marketing and bibliographic information. The metadata allows the Libronix system to provide a wide range of features including catalogs, bibliographies, MARC records and commerce enabled features like "one-click" purchasing, royalty allocation and library management. Acquisition sources include both the Internet and locked CD-ROM's and DVD-ROM's.

Cataloging

Cataloging is the management of acquired resources and accompanying rights and permissions.

The Libronix DLS is designed to help users build their own personal libraries, rather than forcing them to choose from a limited set of pre-defined collections. Once a user acquires resources the DLS automatically organizes them by Author, Title, Subject, etc. using international library standards. Since permission and access are separated the Libronix DLS helps users take their resources with them -- to new machines, to portable electronic book readers, handheld computers, etc.

Retrieval

Retrieval is the process of searching resources and managing the results.

The heart of the Libronix DLS is a distributed search architecture that can take a single query, translate it into the proper form for various back-end databases, and then integrate the results. The search management system is data type independent so it doesn't care if it's searching for Unicode text in a specific language, a user-hummed melody, or a latitude/longitude point. And support for installable query and result interfaces means that complex resources or data types don't have to be forced into a least-common-denominator user interface.

A common search interface simplfies the search process for the user and at the same time enables the publisher to select the best data format for the task.

Interpretation

Interpretation involves seeing information in the context of related resources and being able to discover and create connections between information sources.

A rich user-interface and support for powerful features like scrolling related texts in parallel facilitates interpretation within the Libronix DLS. KeyLinking, (a type of dynamic hypertext), automatic concept extraction, and support for installable features all help users to get the most out of their library.

Sharing

Sharing means having tools and processes for annotating resources, extracting from and citing sources, and collaborating with other users.

The end product of research is often shared with others. The Libronix DLS helps get the information out with features like collaborative annotation -- where inline markup and comments on resources are automatically shared over the Internet -- and a powerful bibliographic citation system that automatically footnotes copied text.

Conclusion

In a world of information overload content isn't enough. The Libronix Digital Library System is designed to bring full-text library holdings to a desktop. For the first time data in multiple formats can be cataloged, browsed, searched and annotated from a common software interface. Libronix represents the logical next step beyond digital books by elegantly addressing all five key functions of a digital library system.

The Libronix DLS is a standards-based, completely expandable system that scales to deliver digital library products ranging from basic consumer reference CD-ROM titles to large corporate information systems.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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GregW | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 11:42 AM

Rich DeRuiter:
But if there's anyway to accept only those titles that would be included in the BL-BX section of the library of Congress, this would be a no-brainer.

Thank you for your response Rich - I had returned for one last time to this thread, having pretty much given up on it. But you've expressed my own view better than I could have. Don't forget, though, that language grammars are in the PA section of the LoC classification system, and History books are (I think) in a different section but your general point is a good one. 


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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 11:45 AM

Wow. Libby is so happy!!  After so many years of that molassas-copycat, her wisdom again shines forth. Now, just to be clear, she'd have never posed the question, should railroading resouces be sold along with Shades of Gray.  


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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 12:40 PM

Apocryphal? Apocalyptic?

9/1999: The Y2K Personal Survival Kit: A Complete Electronic Resource for Personal Preparation. An all-in-one resource to prepare your family for the Y2K crisis and more. Features include a complete Y2K preparation library, instant internet links to the best suppliers and vital Y2K sites, preparation checklists, spiritual preparation for crisis situations, special preparation tips for women, as well as a video introduction and an audio library from Michael Hyatt, author of the national best-sellers, The Y2K Personal Survival Guide and The Millenium Bug.

_______________

There was certainly some extreme overreacting to the Y2k issues. The above may be a more moderate example.

Yet let's not forget to credit the hard work and ultimately successful efforts required to resolve what were real and significant problems. The overblown hype doesn't diminish the accomplishment, but did obscure it's recognition.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 12:58 PM

JAL:
Yet let's not forget to credit the hard work and ultimately successful efforts required to resolve what were real and significant problems. The overblown hype doesn't diminish the accomplishment, but did obscure it's recognition.

My brother helped banks reprogram their systems to avoid the crisis. With proper hard work Faithlife will be able to deal with  the 90/10 challenge.

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JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 1:14 PM

Super.Tramp:
With proper hard work Faithlife will be able to deal with  the 90/10 challenge.

Wink

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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Andy | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 1:41 PM

I have held off on responding in order to think this through. Having done so, I now expect that the 90/10 split may be something of a red herring (as is the issue as to whether Faithlife should or should not sell erotica). (Which, to be clear, is not to suggest that Bob has been anything less that utterly transparent.)

For me, the question is how do I feel about Faithlife turning on the tap to a deluge of non-Biblical and non-Religion focused resources. Yes, this may include erotica, but it will also include a slew of science fiction, crime, and horror novels (in particular, it seems that the publisher to which Bob alludes offers the novels of Stephen King, at least in the UK). Some of these books will be objectionable to some, some of these books will be objectionable to many (as per the E.L. James series). 

Given the furore around Faithlife offering Dracula, I expect that there will be much over which many will become exercised, even if Faithlife are able to effectively screen out works which specifically fall under the description of 'erotica'. 

In short, I suspect that the 90/10 split, in reality, will be of little assurance to those who do not wish to see Faithlife offer 'objectionable' material (however one may define objectionable). 

As for my opinion, were I Bob, I would stay a million miles away from this, for the following reasons,

  • I suspect few people, if any, will wholly abandon Faithlife for want of The Reason for God. I do suspect (as implied within the thread) that some will abandon the platform if Faithlife compromises (as they see it) in respect of this issue.
  • The screening out of objectionable material will become increasingly impracticable as the catalogue grows (90/10 split or no).
  • And because, as I understand it, Faithlife do not need to make this move for business reasons, but rather wish to serve the church better.

Clearly I am not Bob and nor am I privy to all of the information which will inform this decision. As such, should Faithlife decide to go ahead, I would very much prefer the non-Biblical/Religious studies offerings to be marketed on a site distinct to the current Logos and Vyrso sites. Although I have a penchant for SciFi, I want to be able to continue to recommend Logos and Vyrso without worrying about members of my congregation wondering about the relevance of Philip K. Dick, or The Dark Tower series to the Gospel of John Stick out tongue

Blessings

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abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 2:53 PM

JAL:

abondservant:
"Tiffany" (I had a cousin named this, and she hated her name saying it was a stripper name)

sad to read this Broken Heart

Tiffany is greek meaning the appearance of God - from Θεοφάνεια

"Behind the Name: Meaning, Origin and History of the Name Tiffany. Medieval form of THEOPHANIA. This name was traditionally given to girls born on the Epiphany (January 6), the festival commemorating the visit of the Magi to the infant Jesus.

Charles Lewis Tiffany and related predominate whenever I read or hear the name.



I'll have to try to remember to pass that on, I haven't seen her since we were both young teenagers, and may not see her again for some time (she lives in Alaska I believe).

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Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 3:39 PM

Bob, I personally would be for it, as long as you don't have to sell your soul to get them.

The more books that I can get in my library the better, and the larger the audience, I suspect the better the note-taking and mobile tools will become. 

I would way rather send my money to faithlife than Amazon any day. 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

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Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, May 25 2015 4:10 PM

Jacob Hantla:

Bob, I personally would be for it, as long as you don't have to sell your soul to get them.

The more books that I can get in my library the better, and the larger the audience, I suspect the better the note-taking and mobile tools will become. 

I would way rather send my money to faithlife than Amazon any day. 

Yes Geeked Yes

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