You Should Probably Stop Using Lexicons

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This post has 33 Replies | 4 Followers

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JohnB | Forum Activity | Posted: Wed, May 27 2015 12:25 AM

I was intrigued by the post of this name by Mike Heiser  You Should Probably Stop Using Lexicons

This was promoting the Mobile Ed: Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos 6 

I understand that is based on the Logos 5 version so bearing that in mind, do people think that it really will be  suitable for those new to Greek & Hebrew other than dabbling with interlinears and lexicons & already using free bus passes (the latter is especially meaningful to UK users of Logos!) .

The idea that memorization is not required (except presumably for the relevant alphabets!!) to be able to be able to use Greek & Hebrew in bible study much more effectively other than dabbling with interlinears and lexicons is very very tempting!!

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 12:32 AM

I think that the message of practice, practice, practice, practice and meaning is not a gloss are messages that have been around for a very long time.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Rob | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 2:34 AM

So I've been eagerly awaiting the Dictionary of Classical Hebrew - is he telling me that I should cancel my order? [wink]

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 3:38 AM

Rob:

So I've been eagerly awaiting the Dictionary of Classical Hebrew - is he telling me that I should cancel my order? [wink]

No, no, no....they want us to buy it first. Then, after the purchase, stop using it. Wink

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 4:53 AM

It was a sales pitch, nothing to see here.

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Yasmin Stephen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 5:01 AM

David Taylor Jr:

It was a sales pitch, nothing to see here.

YesSad

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Dave Moser | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 6:32 AM

I really didn't like this blog post.

  • His first example against lexicons comes from an expository dictionary which, by definition, is not a lexicon.
  • The "practice, practice, practice" message is buried at the end so it's obscured. The article comes across as an irresponsible attack on a useful tool.
  • Most of all: The product itself, at 20 hours per language, is laughably inadequate to engender the kind of mastery he is advocating for in the post.
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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 6:41 AM

Dave Moser:

I really didn't like this blog post.

  • His first example against lexicons comes from an expository dictionary which, by definition, is not a lexicon.
  • The "practice, practice, practice" message is buried at the end so it's obscured. The article comes across as an irresponsible attack on a useful tool.
  • Most of all: The product itself, at 20 hours per language, is laughably inadequate to engender the kind of mastery he is advocating for in the post.

Yeah, like I said, sales pitch. A poor sales pitch at that.

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Todd Frusti | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 6:55 AM

David Taylor Jr:
Yeah, like I said, sales pitch. A poor sales pitch at that.

However, Id' say the title of the post effectively grabbed attention.

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Yasmin Stephen | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 7:05 AM

Todd Frusti:

However, Id' say the title of the post effectively grabbed attention.

Clickbait Stick out tongue

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 7:09 AM

Todd Frusti:

David Taylor Jr:
Yeah, like I said, sales pitch. A poor sales pitch at that.

However, Id' say the title of the post effectively grabbed attention.

Agreed. I actually clicked on it simply because Heiser was one of my professors in college.

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Todd Frusti | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 7:20 AM

Yasmin Stephen:
Clickbait Stick out tongue

Exactly.

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Jerry Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 7:58 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Dave Moser:

I really didn't like this blog post.

  • His first example against lexicons comes from an expository dictionary which, by definition, is not a lexicon.
  • The "practice, practice, practice" message is buried at the end so it's obscured. The article comes across as an irresponsible attack on a useful tool.
  • Most of all: The product itself, at 20 hours per language, is laughably inadequate to engender the kind of mastery he is advocating for in the post.

Yeah, like I said, sales pitch. A poor sales pitch at that.

Agreed!

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Jerry Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 7:58 AM

David Taylor Jr:

Dave Moser:

I really didn't like this blog post.

  • His first example against lexicons comes from an expository dictionary which, by definition, is not a lexicon.
  • The "practice, practice, practice" message is buried at the end so it's obscured. The article comes across as an irresponsible attack on a useful tool.
  • Most of all: The product itself, at 20 hours per language, is laughably inadequate to engender the kind of mastery he is advocating for in the post.

Yeah, like I said, sales pitch. A poor sales pitch at that.

Agreed!

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JohnB | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 8:33 AM

Sorry to spoil the fun Smile Smile of giving poor Mike a good kicking,Crying .

Actually, I thought that Mike was addressing his comments to people like me who know virtually no Greek or Hebrew - I could name the odd regular forum member who has made equivalent comments.

Back to my query ... has anyone any experience of the predecessor of this course to comment if it is likely to have much added value potential for language challenged Logos users interested in making as much use as possible from Logos?? Thanks

(Languaged challenged means final French grade after 5 years, 7% and German after 4 years 16%. Downhill ever since - over 50 years ago.)

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Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 1:07 PM

JohnB:
has anyone any experience of the predecessor of this course to comment

I purchased the original and worked through most of the Hebrew section. It did have some valuable information, but the sales pitch promised far, far more than the videos delivered. It was probably worth the $169 when first introduced. I would not pay the current price. Last time I checked the original videos were around $500, but I did not even look at the Mobile Ed edition.

YMMV

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Dave Moser | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 1:54 PM

JohnB:
has anyone any experience of the predecessor of this course to comment if it is likely to have much added value potential for language challenged Logos users interested in making as much use as possible from Logos

I purchased the original "Learn to Use Biblical Greek and Hebrew with Logos Bible Software" package before I learned the biblical languages. My initial reaction was that it was not worth the price (even at pre-pub). It was basically a brief introduction to the different resources (lexicons, grammars, etc) and how to search them in Logos - you can learn that on the wiki. And after learning the languages I now realize it's even less valuable than I originally thought since it could give you the false impression that you have a good grasp of what's going on behind the scenes when you really have no idea how the language works.

Bottom line: Don't bother with language tools unless you're going to invest in actually learning the languages. You'll do more harm than good, and our English Bibles are quite excellent. Knowing how to look words up in a lexicon or do a word study is no substitute to knowing how a Greek sentence works.

(Interestingly, this is kind of the point of the original post we're criticizing here but the problem is that his solution - the Mobile Ed product - can't possibly deliver what he claims. It's all marketing fluff. I love Logos but the marketing has gotten downright rotten in the last two years or so.)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 2:33 PM

Dave Moser:

I now realize it's even less valuable than I originally thought since it could give you the false impression that you have a good grasp of what's going on behind the scenes when you really have no idea how the language works.

Bottom line: Don't bother with language tools unless you're going to invest in actually learning the languages. You'll do more harm than good, and our English Bibles are quite excellent. Knowing how to look words up in a lexicon or do a word study is no substitute to knowing how a Greek sentence works.

Yes

Yes

Yes

Yes

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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mab | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 5:03 PM

Pretty clear Heiser is using hyperbole to get people to learn more than words. Most students don't want to do the hard stuff. 

The mind of man is the mill of God, not to grind chaff, but wheat. Thomas Manton | Study hard, for the well is deep, and our brains are shallow. Richard Baxter

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, May 27 2015 5:51 PM

I'm surprised folks are wound up, especially on the blog page.

When I learned Japanese, a dictionary was a disaster. I was always wrong. Listening to my spouse was faster. So also learning Navajo using Rosetta ... loose the dictionary.  The Navajo happily laugh at you, elsewise.

Now, that assumes you want to learn the language. Make a trip to Seoul, then bring the common words and signs. Small dictionary.

Personally, absent serious expertise, greek and hebrew are a hobby for most.  A dead language and another varient lost until a century ago. Authors unknown. Time written unknown. Location unknown.


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