Pre-Pub Pricing (Baker Books)

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 12:52 PM

Matthew C Jones:
I am interested to see how long it takes before the paper book industry gets around to publishing works that originate in digital format only.

This is happening on a small scale now as is print-on-demand. Note: print-on-demand has been the model for academic thesis for at least 40 years.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 26268
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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 12:55 PM

Edwin Bowden:
People may disagree. But we need to learn to disagree agreeably.

Thank you for saying this. I am often astonished (and not pleasantly) by the tone of opposing posts.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 1355
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 1:02 PM

P. Keith Larson:

Just to give an example of how ridiculous these prices are; one of the resources has a SRP of $17.99.

Logos eBook: $17.99

Amazon Paperback: $12.23

Kindle eBook: $9.99

I like having books in my Logos library, but NOT that much.

That is comparing apples and studebakers (as a friend of mine likes to say).

Do the other electronic formats provide the capabilities of Logos format titles?

I don't buy a Logos title to "read."

It is a part of my electronic Bible study library. I have access to the information that I need In seconds, even if I don't know I have it or where it is. Those benefits do not come without a cost to the publisher (Logos). 

That is why I buy Logos.

I'm not interested in other electronic formats.

Posts 390
Alain Maashe | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 1:21 PM

Blair Laird:

Alain Maashe:
Here it is clearly not a matter of new resources that "are expected to be that price". it is also obvious that not many here expect or are planning to buy new resources at full MSRP but expect something similar to what is done with print resources that are substantially discounted even before publication by most retailers.

 

Why do you feel that you deserve a discount ? If you dont like the price (it is a free market) you can purchase it somewhere else at a cheaper rate. Neither Logos nor Baker owes me anything.I have seen a lot of people on this point with the (self entitlement attitude). I have paid for my books therefore I am owed the books I paid for. No one owes me anything beyond that. No one owes me a cheaper rate, but by me not purchasing their material they will get the point. I am with you. I believe digital resources should be cheaper seeing as there is a one time manufacturing fee (putting it in digital format). However no one owes me a discounted rate. As a business they have the right to charge whatever they want. They will not stay profitable if people refuse to pay their price.

 

 

Blair,

You are arguing against a point I did not make and concentrating on terms and concepts I did not use (owe, deserve, self entitlement).

Having expectations (the term I used) when it comes to a company or a product is not the same as having a "self entitlement attitude", or feeling that one is owe or deserves something.

Companies with their products seek to meet customers expectations (offer and demand), a proper understanding of the customers' expectations is essential to a successful business plan where the offer meets the demand.

I would be more helpful if you could work fromwhat people actually say instead of speculating about their motives

 

Alain

 

 

 

 

 

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 2:27 PM

Edwin, you and I see this differently, although I have not used the terms you have mentioned such as,"gouging","ripoff" and "moneychangers".  I see the use of such terms as being good, not bad.

Bob is running a large company that he desires to grow, into a bigger and better comany, he has sought feed back, and if he is half as smart as I think he is, he understands that he could spend a fortune trying to find out the information he is finding out for free on these forums.

If I was in his position and my customers were thinking or feeling like my company was gouging, trying to rip people off and were  moneychangers I would want to know that.  I would rather know the truth about how they were feeling than to have everyone be "nice" and not tell me the truth about how they feel. 

Of course I see this as one of the problems I see in many churches, we want everyone to be nice, even when the feel other wise.  Many people catch on and play the game, and because of that they are never helped.  I believe that Logos is far better off to know how people are really feeling than to be left in the dark. 

I want to make one thing clear to Bob, I support Logos, and I have been moved many times to praise God not only for all the improvements I have seen in your software, but even more for your attitude towards those that have said negative things about some of the things you have done.  Your attitude shows me alot about your walk with God and how He is working in your life. And for that I find myself constantly giving thanks to Him!

By the way Edwin, I deal with a lot of people teaching them how to use electronic bible programs, one of the often heard complains against Logos is that the company is charging to much for their products, I am constantly hearing this charge, so the complaints I have seen in this tread are minor in this area of cost compared with what I hear in the free market. 

Of course, the main reasons they feel this way is that many of their products are spendy, and many never hear of the great deals(recent upgrade packages), and most people have no idea, how this system can change the way we study and learn.  If they did they would be more accepting of the price, but the truth is they are on the edge of pricing people like me out of the market, even knowing what I know, I am getting on the edge of not being able to afford it !!!  There are also so great christian schools out there and they charge large amounts of money to attend them, they are worth the money and maybe even more, but I know of a lot of pastors that can not attend them because they just don't have that kind of money.  Logos is on the edge of going over the line, and servicing only a small group of people with money. Bob needs to hear these complaint that are being made, what he does is up to him.

Edwin, I am afraid we will just disagree on this.

In Christ,

Jim

Posts 1390
Blair Laird | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 3:39 PM

Alain Maashe:

Blair,

You are arguing against a point I did not make and concentrating on terms and concepts I did not use (owe, deserve, self entitlement).

I apologize for the misunderstanding.

Posts 1355
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 3:58 PM

JimVanSchoonhoven:

Edwin, you and I see this differently, although I have not used the terms you have mentioned such as,"gouging","ripoff" and "moneychangers".  I see the use of such terms as being good, not bad.

Bob is running a large company that he desires to grow, into a bigger and better comany, he has sought feed back, and if he is half as smart as I think he is, he understands that he could spend a fortune trying to find out the information he is finding out for free on these forums.

If I was in his position and my customers were thinking or feeling like my company was gouging, trying to rip people off and were  moneychangers I would want to know that.  I would rather know the truth about how they were feeling than to have everyone be "nice" and not tell me the truth about how they feel. 

Of course I see this as one of the problems I see in many churches, we want everyone to be nice, even when the feel other wise.  Many people catch on and play the game, and because of that they are never helped.  I believe that Logos is far better off to know how people are really feeling than to be left in the dark. 

I want to make one thing clear to Bob, I support Logos, and I have been moved many times to praise God not only for all the improvements I have seen in your software, but even more for your attitude towards those that have said negative things about some of the things you have done.  Your attitude shows me alot about your walk with God and how He is working in your life. And for that I find myself constantly giving thanks to Him!

By the way Edwin, I deal with a lot of people teaching them how to use electronic bible programs, one of the often heard complains against Logos is that the company is charging to much for their products, I am constantly hearing this charge, so the complaints I have seen in this tread are minor in this area of cost compared with what I hear in the free market. 

Of course, the main reasons they feel this way is that many of their products are spendy, and many never hear of the great deals(recent upgrade packages), and most people have no idea, how this system can change the way we study and learn.  If they did they would be more accepting of the price, but the truth is they are on the edge of pricing people like me out of the market, even knowing what I know, I am getting on the edge of not being able to afford it !!!  There are also so great christian schools out there and they charge large amounts of money to attend them, they are worth the money and maybe even more, but I know of a lot of pastors that can not attend them because they just don't have that kind of money.  Logos is on the edge of going over the line, and servicing only a small group of people with money. Bob needs to hear these complaint that are being made, what he does is up to him.

Edwin, I am afraid we will just disagree on this.

In Christ,

Jim

Jim,

Although we may disagree on some issues, I appreciate your civil responses.

One of my frustrations in over 60 years of church life and over 20 years in Christian publishing is the prevalent attitude among Christians that if something is "Christian" it should be free or very cheap. Most who have that opinion have never dealt with the realities of business finances. Everything costs someone something.

It is also hard to compare pricing on other secular things to those which are specifically "Christian." There is not the volume savings that secular items enjoy.

Publishing in general, and Chrisian publishing and retailing in particular have been hard hit in recent years (even before the overall economic downturn).  It is obvious that Logos has been successful while others have floundered. Bob has been wise in his business decisions. He has actually so spoiled us with the bargains that he offers, that we assume that everything from Logos will be a bargain.  

None of us know the details that brought the newest Baker and Zondervan titles to Logos. Bob may not have liked the pricing himself, but his customers (us) were asking him for these titles. He provided the product we said we wanted. I believe that Bob got the best deal available to Logos.

It seems that the other option would to wait longer for those Baker titles to become available. Zondervan could have continued to be independent and publish their own titles exclusively. We may not like the pricing, but at least we will have the opportunity to purchae titles not previously available to Logos users.

It is a quickly changing world out there. Logos has shown that they are trying to respond in a timely fashion.

Edwin

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 6:41 PM

David Lowther:
I am willing to assume that Zondervan and Baker Books are going to be involved in electronic publishing in one form or another and that if Logos is not a competitive option, they will eventually use some other format/delivery mechanism; maybe less powerful, but more affordable.

Maybe you are unaware that Zondervan already does deliver digital content outside of Logos. (& I'm not taliking about Pradis.) There is absolutely no loyalty/faithfulness by Zondervan in this Zondervan/Logos marriage. Z has been cheating with the others for a long time. The only difference is Zondervan wants a higher price from the Logos user than they charge with the others. If they expect loyalty & total sacrifice from Logos maybe they should be exclusive to the Logos delivery system.

 

David Lowther:
. I am pleased with Logos 3, learning and excited about Logos 4 (love being able to get to my books with my iPhone), and I am looking forward to the future of electronic publishing and the power of digital books (though I am lover of bound books and the printed page). These forums are very useful, have great contributors, and it is great to see Bob and the Logos staff involved with the thoughts and opinions of their customers/users

I agree Bob & Logos have done many things well. That is precisely why I do NOT think the Zondervan/Baker pricing idea was his. It is out of character.,

EDIT: General Motors used a similar pricing scheme by limiting the number of Corvettes they would produce each year. The 'Vettes soon became just a rich person's auto. GM did not care because the few over-priced sales made for their required profit margin. They even paid a lower hourly rate to the assemblers at the Bowling Green, KY plant for the "privelage" of building the nice sports car. So if publishers want to triple their costs and can find just a third of the pastors have the funds to buy, it still may work. The two-thirds of us who can't buy just won't have it. I guess I could sell my collection of Fabrege eggs to buy more software.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 1355
Edwin Bowden | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 6:53 PM

Matthew C Jones:

Maybe you are unaware that Zondervan already does deliver digital content outside of Logos. (& I'm not taliking about Pradis.) There is absolutely no loyalty/faithfulness by Zondervan in this Zondervan/Logos marriage. Z has been cheating with the others for a long time.

????

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 7:00 PM

Edwin Bowden:
????

Not the whole $2000 collection. Sorry to sound otherwise.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 579
Jim VanSchoonhoven | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 6 2010 8:57 PM

Edwin, my main concerns are that I believe Bob has asked for opinions to help him stay on top of things, I think he really wants to know the good, the bad and the ugly. 

Yet we as believers might try to keep him from hearing the things he desires to hear, the things that will help him the most.  The ugly!

Like I said before, I believe Bob is very smart as well as being an example of walking by faith. 

 I believe these boards are giving him the kind of feed back that sometimes even money can;t buy.  And you are right I doubt any of us understands the things he goes through and how hard his choices are to make, but the more accurate his feedback is the better chance he will have to make the right choice.

Thanks for your kind conversation I will bow out now.

In Christ,

Jim

Posts 1281
toughski | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 2:57 AM

Look, in the end the CONSUMER always wins. After all, he is the decision maker who controls his money. Take a DRM beast for example. When it was first introduced, consumers were at the mercy of labels, content that they paid for did not play where it used too. An outcry was HUGE but it fell on deaf ears... UNTIL "capitalism" kicked in. Sony, BMG,PARAMOUNT or xyz company really could care less about individual voices of consumers, but they surely paid attention to BestBuy and Walmart when these retailers had a ton of returns of DRM-crippled content. (BTW, consumers do have the right to return a product that does not work where it should). Situation is similar with this pre-pub issue. Of course, copyright holders can charge as much as they want - it is a free economy after all. However, consumers have more leverage here - they can buy the same content, plus or minus the same functionality by buying a used book on amazon (it is amazing, how fast "front-list" titles are sold used). Who was at disadvantage? The retailer! In the end, the one with fewer bargaining chips, I am afraid, is LOGOS. They need to have the content users want (publishers win) at the prices users will pay (consumers win) AND put all of the work in. This is a Warren Buffett economics 101. Here lies our test of loyalty, however. With all of its past history, Logos has been outstanding for us the customers. They have gone over and beyond fair. They have proven their loyalty to us, haven't they. So are YOU going to dump Logos for XYZ-reader if Logos' version of a book $1.00 more, $3.00? What is your price? Personally, I am glad that the books are offered individually. First of all, now you can compare books "apples to apples" across different media to see which is a best value. Secondly, we do get "useless fluff" in some bundles that just clogs the Library view. Thirdly, I personally spend too much on buying collections, I would spend a lot less if I bought only books i need at the time, albeit at retail prices. As a missionary, I really don't have a choice but have all-digital library. Have you ever tried to move 2500+ volumes of books every few months? I am in that minority of users that will pay MSRP, I will just have to order less and be more discerning. But what do you think?

Posts 1631
Allen Browne | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 4:31 AM

Bob Pritchett:
(Amazon's sale of e-books at $9.99 is generally at a loss...

Bob, thank you for your explanation.

I wasn't aware of this but it is being discussed in the tech news elsewhere too, e.g.
     http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/news/2010/02/publishers-continue-pummeling-amazon-over-e-book-prices.ars

This helps keep our expectations in balance.

 

Posts 569
J. Morris | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 6:26 AM

David J. Wilson:
What has happened is that a couple of new additions have been made with a different approach,

Actually there are going to be "hundreds" of (possible) new titles from Baker alone (per official Logos quote), then throw in Zondervan....

David J. Wilson:
The pre-pub concept is and always has been a means of testing whether or not there is enough interest to produce a Logos edition of the title.  If there is not enough interest it will just not happen.

What do you think will happen if everyone jumped on board and purchased the titles at full MSRP?  Economics tell me we will see more and more titles listed at MSRP.....

Posts 1937
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 6:51 AM

VladimirLukyanov:
Logos has been outstanding for us the customers. They have gone over and beyond fair. They have proven their loyalty to us, haven't they.

I agree with this, but it can be taken too far.  Times change. Strategies change.  Philosophy changes.  Economies change.  Culture changes.  Situation changes.  Past loyalty means we give Logos the benefit of a doubt.  But that does not last forever.  For me it lasted as long as it was unclear that they had changed course.  Once that became clear (and for me it has become clear), then i purchase based on the needs that I have.  In my case, I have 6 children to train up for the Lord.  if a company such as logos begins to get very tight with copyright issues and tells me that my heavy investment can be used only for me and not my family, and if I die, so do my rights for the investment I paid and I cannot pass it on to family members, then the software no longer meets my needs, and I regret some large purchases that were made based on the understanding that this library could be enjoyed by family members. 

I understand digital copyright issues today. I understand that it is a brave new world. I understand also, that the publishing companies have not found a way forward and they are just trying to figure it out.  The world has changed.  Newspapers are holding on to a thread, trying to survive instead of accepting the new reality.  Music has been in the same boat but they may have found a way forward.  Publishing is also in the same boat. Who needs to publish something through a company when you can publish it yourself for free on the web?  So I completely understand the issues that Logos is facing.  I dont agree with their decisions to handle them, but I do respect them and know they have the right to move in the way they want to move.  But so does the customer.

VladimirLukyanov:
As a missionary, I really don't have a choice but have all-digital library. Have you ever tried to move 2500+ volumes of books every few months? I am in that minority of users that will pay MSRP

Yes, I am with you on this point.  I too am a missionary and I know what it is like and how much it costs to move hard copy books.  That is why I have invested so much in LOGOS.  It has been a huge help in ministry.  I have a library of over 4000 resources and it has been a tremendous help in the work of the Lord.  I regret some purchases as not being wise because of the above mentioned reason.  But I dont regret having the library.  I know I will add more books in the future.  L4 is great.  But I am now being wiser in purchases, and purchasing very little.  I have my library and it is good enough for the purpose I need it.  I now seek out other software models (and have found them) where I can purchase books that my children can use and also can be used on multiple platforms in the model of hard copy books that can be used by family members and borrowed by friends.  The search engine that Logos excels in is not there.  But I still have Logos for that. 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  Again, my thoughts should not be taken by anyone as a complaint or a whine.  It is neither.  It is simple logic that may not be true in someone else' case.  It just seems that Logos is aiming for a particular client base.  And that client base is clearly not the family.

Posts 514
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 7:54 AM

Mark,

Bob has said we can have our software on multiple computers for use by our family, by family I believe he meant residing in our home. The probelm with L4 is the sync process which as of right now, does not allow seperate setups within the family. You can still us L3 and almost all of your books in that platform to be used by your children in yuor home without messing up your personal L4 settings. Concerning your library being left to your heirs, that is no problem and has been addressed many times here. You can transfer your license in your will to whoever  you want.

Even though I see a trend with Baker and Zondervan concerning their pricing for front-list titles, I still expect to see great pre pubs from Logos and back-list titles at more than fair prices. I have or have had every bible program over the last twenty five years, and I can tell you that I have come to put all my eggs into Logos's basket. They have earned our trust for the future by how well they have responed to us and our concerns in the past. They are not perfect but I believe that they stand head and shoulders above the rest of the market.

Posts 2908
Tes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 8:53 AM

Edwin Bowden:

I don't buy a Logos title to "read."

It is a part of my electronic Bible study library. I have access to the information that I need In seconds, even if I don't know I have it or where it is. Those benefits do not come without a cost to the publisher (Logos). 

That is why I buy Logos.

I'm not interested in other electronic formats.

I am not involved in this thread,because it's up to me ,to buy or not.everybody has to decide for himself,so does Logos aswell,But the reason I am quoting this is I like simply what you have said,it is what I believe too.

Blessings in Christ.

Posts 2774
J.R. Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 9:01 AM

Tes:

Edwin Bowden:

I don't buy a Logos title to "read."

It is a part of my electronic Bible study library. I have access to the information that I need In seconds, even if I don't know I have it or where it is. Those benefits do not come without a cost to the publisher (Logos). 

That is why I buy Logos.

I'm not interested in other electronic formats.

I am not involved in this thread,because it's up to me ,to buy or not.everybody has to decide for himself,so does Logos aswell,But the reason I am quoting this is I like simply what you have said,it is what I believe too.

Yes

 

My Books in Logos & FREE Training

Posts 149
David A. Peterson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 10:17 AM

Speaking of the Pre-Pub Baker books, does anyone know if Baker Theology Collection (11 Vols.)  is still on schedule?  At the risk of being called a scab and breaking through the lines of the many price-protestors (hopefully my light-hearted attempt at humor there will not be misunderstood Big Smile ) I need a couple of those resources for a class.  (By the way, those who are clammering about prices, walk into a college OR seminary bookstore.  My wife just had to pay $175 for a used textbook, for an economics class ironically enough)

DP

<><

Posts 321
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 7 2010 10:21 AM

I protest....uh..down with the man and up with dance..

 

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