Book Encryption-loaning out to friends

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Posts 34
St. Columcille | Forum Activity | Posted: Sat, Aug 1 2015 8:20 AM

One of the reasons people buy physical books is the ability to read them in hand.  Now everyone might use a tablet or mobile phone, even the PC, to read digital books at their own leisure.  

However, one of the other assets of a physical book is the ability to loan them out to a friend.   

At the current level, account holders are able to download their books only to their own devices.   Not many people would loan out a device so another could read.   This leads me to a different suggestion which I might want to see in a much later upgrade to the Logos application.   

The sales pitch of Logos is always comparing price to a physical hard-bound/paper-bound book in value. What if in the Logos community we were to have friends who would create accounts and we could loan out a digital book for x-amount of days.   This would mean that the resource we ourselves purchased when on loan would restrict our own access to the digital book, but it could be accessed by our friend.  

I am thinking this could be a possibility, but would be a radical upgrade to each and every digital book as I think it would require a unique encryption to the account holder for each digital book.  

Also, Beneficiary.  I know I have had a beneficiary noted to my account in cased I were to die when I first went to Iraq.   My first beneficiary had an account with logos but didn't have as much as me.  Now I think that beneficiary on his own has an account that is equal to my own, so what good would it do to bequeath my account?    I've since bequeathed it to someone who does not use Logos, but this person uses a different inferior competitor. I think that if one were to have a beneficiary on the account, that what books one owns in a digital library if the beneficiary has those books in their own account should be able to gain only the books that person does not own in their own account.   The books that are shared could be donated to say a non-profit organization so they can increase their copyright usage onto multiple computers within a school or center.

I am just putting this out there as a suggestion.  Something of this scale might be ready or created in a much later Logos system.   I think this kind of suggestion would produce two things:  

1) it would increase more potential clients who consider Logos to be pricey and refrain any consideration from using it on that basis and settle with their competitor software package.   The use of loaning one's books would increase potential clients.

2) it would also benefit account holders as we "brag" about Logos and want to show others the benefits of Logos, but presently cannot because the people who only have free access accounts cannot be loaned out digital books to test if they want that particular digital book.  


1) loaning out a digital book read by another upon reading may not be considered a book worth having, and so some digital books sales might decrease having the consumer already read it and consider it a resource not worth having.  Sort of like one goes to the movies and watches it once, but would never purchase it on DVD, or another is uncertain to even watch it in the movies and so waits for it years later to be on cable or on a television "world premiere" night and so loaning books might produce in others the desire not to purchase that one book.  

however, that con would mean that one is more concerned about the sale of digital books rather than satisfying consumers who want to own a digital library that only contains what they really want.

I am sure there are other consideration both pros and cons.  It is why I wanted to put it in the forum for discussion.  I think the encryption would be fairly sophisticated and with sophistication comes coding bugs that would require updates.  So I don't think it would happen anytime soon, but I think it might be worth a future application of Logos.

Sincerely, Stephen Brace

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 1 2015 8:26 AM

Hi Stephen

For background (if you haven't already seen them) you might be interested in which includes links to other threads where this has been discussed previously.


Posts 34
St. Columcille | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 1 2015 8:45 AM

Thank you.

Is it something the leadership in is seriously considering?   I know coding language is pretty complex.   My using C#.NET and creating my own applications is fairly intense working out both syntax and logic errors.  Add encryption and working with Information System security issues would be almost as much a larger hurdle.   Hackers would love to get into people's accounts and find ways to obtain PPI.  One could not have "friends" of the type on Facebook, where people add people they don't know and risk loaning a book to a stranger to have a hacker find vulnerabilities with the loaning process.   

I am pretty sure if it is seriously considered, that internet security is probably the foremost reason not to even consider it.  But if they are, I think that would be nice to know.

Posts 34
St. Columcille | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 1 2015 8:52 AM

Also the links you show are posts much older than 2012.  Does not seem to be anything updated on the issue at least with that link you provided.   

I raise another issue that would be tied to loaning in a way and that has to do with beneficiaries.   The loaning would have to precede the use of allocating resources upon an account holder's death since the loaning process would compare another person's account to see if they already own that resource.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 1 2015 8:56 AM

St. Columcille:
Is it something the leadership in is seriously considering?

I haven't seen anything to suggest that the Faithlife leadership are considering it seriously - but I also have no inside information!

Posts 8967
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 1 2015 9:54 AM

St. Columcille:
Is it something the leadership in is seriously considering?

The publishers have a major say in whether or not they will allow loaning of books. Some do not allow renting or mobile app enabled books.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 34
St. Columcille | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 1 2015 10:13 AM

To be fair, I don't think publisher's have a say in it.  How are they to enforce loaning out books when people buy a hard back or soft cover book?   Can publisher's dictate that we cannot give our physical books to libraries or charitable organizations?  The same should apply to digital ownership.  At present, digital ownership on a technical scale has not been attempted at loaning books very much like owning a physical book.  It would require relinquishing an owner's use once loaned out very much like a physical book is on loan.  The same goes for beneficiary status.  To me, I think it false advertising to equate digital books to physical books because if you cannot use it like a physical book both in reading as well as loaning, then one should never make the comparison.   Physical books should then be more appreciated and promoted due to the asset value retained for one's overall assets that can be liquidated to others upon death.   If digital books are not an asset value to the account holder, I should forever never update any base package from here on out preferring a physical bound book to retain my overall assets.

At present, I am extremely grateful to have noted who will benefit my account on death.  So there is some value to me in digital ownership, but if my friend purchases or already has an account with Logos, much of my purchase of digital books will lose value since if he owns any books that are similar to what I own then  the value of said book would be dropped as a duplicate owned item.   However, if Logos were to say that books retain a certain value and a beneficiary is to combine accounts, it would be nice to know if duplicate own books would be applied to the beneficiary so they can purchase prepublication, future upgrades, or other purchases.  In this regard, my last statement in the previous paragraph is null, since applying asset value of duplicate owned books by my beneficiary would benefit with purchase credit power, and I would still upgrade my base packages even if a loan application never is technically or out of any legality issue with publishers should digital ownership prevent loaning, at least I will know that my digital purchase has asset value to apply to beneficiaries.

Posts 5270
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 1 2015 10:59 AM

St. Columcille:
To be fair, I don't think publisher's have a say in it.

The major problem is Logos has to abide by there contracts until there is legislation forcing Logos and publishers to treat digital books more like real books (and i have heard no hints of such a move in any government), Logos hands are tied as to what they can do based on their contracts. I would love for example to have the Jerome Bible Commentary and the Oxford Bible commentary on my iPad, but these 2 resources are no longer under contract with Logos and their contracts were for computers not mobile devices. There are even a few other items Faithlife still sell that cannot be mobile enabled due to the contract stipulations. It is fine for you to buy physical books, if the ability to lend is an extremely high necessity. Because lending in many ways would be counterproductive for Faithlife. One thing technically illegal for you to do but in my mind not unethical, would be to purchase a cheap android tablet install fairthlife on it and you have a device owned by you that you are lending out to someone. (PLEASE NOTE I AM NOT ADVOCATING YOU AUTHORIZE NUMBEROUS DEVICES THIS WOULD LEAD TO FAITHLIFE CANCELLING YOUR ACCOUNT AND YOU LOSING ALL YOUR PURCHASES) but with that warning out of the way I do not believe one extra device would be noticed as I know of people who have numerous devices. This again is against FL end user agreement which states your account is for yourself only although FL has extended it to your household  (hence husbands and wives and even minor children may use the same account, but not you child away at university who would require their own account). I offered this suggestion as a possible work around for your desire to lend out a book since I know there are android tablets out there that cost less than a hundred dollars, which i do not think would likely offer a great experience but should be able to get Vyrso installed to "lend out a book" on. I am sure the legal department at Logos would hate me suggesting this but then I am not a Faithlife employee, just a user trying to help out another user. Although in fact this may be perfectly legal as long as you always own the tablet. AGAIN PLEASE DO NOT AUTHORIZE ANY DEVICE YOU DO NOT OWN THIS CAN LEAD TO YOUR ACCOUNT BEING TERMINATED.


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Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 1 2015 11:00 AM

St. Columcille:
To be fair, I don't think publisher's have a say in it.

Unfortunately I will guess you are wrong about this. Physical books are purchased and become the property of the buyer. As property (at least here in the United States) they may be disposed of by the owner as he/she desires.

Digital books are never owned. You won a license to them and the publisher can set the terms of that license. That is the significant difference that would likely make what you suggest (as much as I might like it) unlikely to happen. There is no harm in asking.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 34
St. Columcille | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Aug 1 2015 11:08 AM

It would not be practical either to give your own device to another, even if the device is the cheapest on the market.  Since the application would be open with your account, they may have access and that could technically be harsh with people's credit cards on the account to purchase upgrades and prepub or community pricing items.   I would not recommend that due to PPI issues.  Just a practical advice.  Never loan out your device.

Posts 5270
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 2 2015 10:37 AM

I do not believe there is anyway to purchase a book within the verse program but you are right, it would have to be a trusted friend to do that. Another illegal option (which I will admit to when wanting a friend to read an out of print book not in the Calgary Library system) was to copy chapter by chapter a book and place it into a word document file. This again is illegal but it seemed to be the lesser of two evils as I could have signed her phone in after having her download Vyrso. It is one thing to say she could have bought the book herself but 1 out of print book among a massive collection by a stay at home Mom was never going to happen, so I did what seemed best in my mind and made sure I was not referencing it as she was reading it to honour the spirit of fair use.


Posts 34
St. Columcille | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 2 2015 12:31 PM

The potential for abuse is probably a good reason to have a loan feature.   

I don't think copy and pasting whole portions of books is good either.   Personally, I know when I copy and paste from websites some large paragraphs that it slows down my computer and sometimes freezes up my Word application.   

Besides, the main subject matter is in regards to loaning out books to other account holders and also make it easier to transfer the library to another account who might be a beneficiary.   The benefit for either loaning or transferring one's library content is the most beneficial to increase potential users and generate more consumers.   Word Documents do not have a search engine (although they have a "find" option, nor the benefits of all the features afforded by owning products).  I don't want to give people ideas of how to circumvent the license agreement of the account holder.   My main purpose is to see if the leadership will contemplate it, it does not matter if the contemplation is 10 years down the road, but they could potentially be a trendsetter in the industry if they wanted to try.   

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