Baker & Zondervan tidbit...

At the time I post this there are 11,898 reads of the Zondervan discussion and 9,805 reads of the Baker discussion. I think it's safe to say there is a great deal of interest in these two publishers and their offerings...and likewise I think it's safe to say a fair deal of disappointment. I hear the arguments that Bob makes about the state of the publishing industry and the e-book industry, and the specialty-quasi-hybrid that is Logos. But there is still one fact that I think is unaddressed or overlooked or ignored.

There was a time when sales of high-ticket multi-volume items were limited to primarily institutions. Now, as a result of digital hyperlinking, hundreds of users WANT to have a copy of these resources. These sales, by Logos's own EULA requirement, are to INDIVIDUALS who more than likely were NEVER going to be in the market for the hard copy bulk of these resources. These sales, by all rights, should be seen as "gravy" to the publishers, so much "largesse". As a result, as I and others have advocated, I am a strong believer that these real yet non-material figments they should be marketed as commodities with the "bulk pricing" mindset that made the rollout of L4 the "too much of a good thing" & CS trainwreck Bob has lamented over...may we all have such profitable disasters. Can libraries buy the ICC on Logos? No. So they will purchase the hard copy like they always have, right? It's their only option. So...if the hardcopy sales of such items remain the same, why then this "worry" that e-books will pinch hardcopy sales? I think that is a phantom worry. And I am certain that there is a lower asking price that would generate more sales than what is currently expected for these resources.

I am specifically speaking about the big ticket items, which Logos's expertise makes so useful to us. I take Bob at his word regarding his desire to make more available for less...my Portfolio bears that out. But the publishers HAVE GOT TO GET THIS MESSAGE...YOU WILL GET MORE OF MY MONEY IF IN RETURN I GET MORE VALUE WHEN I PULL OUT MY WALLET. That is a message, oh publishing magnates, that you can literally take to the bank...if you will choose to accept it.

Zondervan's whole stash should be priced @ $500. That's a deal that people would be foolish to resist and I feel more than certain that at least 4 times as many people would bite on that savory bit of bait. On the other hand, $2000 is a cross that few will want to carry. Baker is a bit different, since single titles are different from reference resources. But those types of titles are also far less likely to be bogged down with a profusion of references that require tagging, dontcha think? So their offerings too should be less than SRP by a mile--probably very near to Amazon's price. Even as "individual" titles, if Baker offered a bulk deal on the so-called front end (or whatever they call it) titles, they would probably generate more sales then they will by adopting (should I say "clinging to") the Cro-Magnon piecemeal approach.

Just to make a point here, I think the "fact" that the Christian market (if you can even call what Logos does the Christian market) is "limited" compared to secular publishing in general is also a bit of a phantom issue. It may be true after a fashion, but it ignores that fact that before Logos came along it (specifically Christian Reference) was a market that existed and obviously was getting along just fine. Tons of stuff was getting published. Now, there is a whole new breed of customer who has materialized and is itching to buy personal copies of items once relegated to institutional purchases. If the powers that be had any vision and perception regarding this brand new and completely different market, they would loosen up the reigns (bulk sales...deep discounts) and let this baby run free. Remember, the vast majority of these sales are to people who NEVER were customers previously.

These are just observations...I'm not really interested in starting a new discussion on this topic, but comment if you want.

Final observation: PrePubs I have in my pipe? Within spitting distance of $10,000. Number of dollars worth of Zondervan and Baker titles? $0. Speaking of pipes, you know what you can do with that....

Another tidbit: there are 12,429 views of "The correct way to Hijack a thread"...so at least it seems that humor triumphs over disappointment. May it always be so!

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Comments

Jim VanSchoonhoven

You have one thing right, at least in my case, I have many reference books that I would have never bought until, they were priced to the point, that I could no longer not buy them.

I would not have these books, if I had to pay the price that paper books bring, these are extra sales of these books that would have never been sold.

I was aware of these reference books from using them in school, but never dreamed of owning them for myself, now thanks to Bob and Logos I have them, and David is right at 500 dollars, I would have to have the Zondervan books, but the way it is I will most likely spend 129.00 for one set of commentaries and never buy another book in that group. One more point, I do have many of the Zondervan titles in another format, but again it was bought at such a price that I could no longer, not buy them!!!

Thanks to Bob and the whole crew at Logos for making it possible for me to own so many great reference books! Keep up the good work!

In Christ,

Jim

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90780#Comment_90780

The cost of ebooks has to be figured very differently than traditional hard copy books.

With hard copy books the cost of producing 1 books is not the same as producing 1,000 books. It is much more costly to produce 1,000 books since you have to buy paper, ink, storage, shipping to get them from the writer's pen/computer to the reader.

With an ebook there is little additional cost to produce 1,000 copies as there is to produce 1. There is negligible cost in storage, transmitting bits and the transaction of payment receipt. Bandwidth and storage are cheaper tan paying some nice lady named Margaret to enter my credit card info and have my account credited with that book. With digital payment systems Margaret is not necessary except to make sure that all of our payments were done automatically. So the cost of shipping 1 is not a lot less than shipping 1,000.

Publishers are so tied to the old model they cannot get this through their heads. I am not saying there is less cost in producing the Logos version of Z books. In fact it may cost more to get copy 1 up and running. But I would bet by the time you ship the 1,000th copy it is far less due to the above.

So, in the long run, ebooks should be cheaper than I can get them from Amazon or BN. That does not even factor the risk of ebooks. The risk is that I might lose the facility of these books if technology changes or the book reading system is no longer supported by the company that makes them. Sure there is also a risk with hard copy books, but in my experience it is easier to protect my hard copy books and make them useful for a lifetime. I can always take it off the shelf. I used to have some 5.25 inch floppies of another company's software. I could not use that software to search/read the NIV bible, which was all it did. I could not because I did not own a 5.25 inch floppy. My wife was given some teaching materials on a 3.5 inch floppy this week. She brought it home and asked me to put it on her flash drive. I don't own a 3.5 inch floppy drive anymore. I could not. I know it is possible, but not easy and soon will be nearly impossible unless you work at the Smithsonian institute where they may one day have the last floppy disk drives.

I feel like I'm repeating myself.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90826#Comment_90826

These issues can be easily made into a matter based on Bob's, or some other representative of Logos, perceived forum personality although I really don't think they are. Nor do I think its an issue of how much or how little it costs to develop a e-book for any specific publisher and our lust for several new toys from that company. What I think its about is selling more and more items at a price that will continue to roll those items out the door, so to speak, from Logos. How many of us really need $7000.00 dollars worth of Logos materials from their top of the line items...although I do understand that they are some consumers who do have such a need. In a consumer based culture (imo) Christian publishers and distributors are betting that we will do what Americans so often do consume, consume, consume.

Again Logos makes it possible for many Christian consumers to have access to many wonderful products to help in Christian ministry. There seems to be a strong effort to support consumers from Logos that is not often found in other companies in the publisher/software market. Yet there is one goal to a business...sell their products at whatever the price consumers will buy them.

Robert Mullen

There was a time when sales of high-ticket multi-volume items were limited to primarily institutions. Now, as a result of digital hyperlinking, hundreds of users WANT to have a copy of these resources. These sales, by Logos's own EULA requirement, are to INDIVIDUALS who more than likely were NEVER going to be in the market for the hard copy bulk of these resources. These sales, by all rights, should be seen as "gravy" to the publishers, so much "largesse". As a result, as I and others have advocated, I am a strong believer that these real yet non-material figments they should be marketed as commodities with the "bulk pricing" mindset that made the rollout of L4 the "too much of a good thing" & CS trainwreck Bob has lamented over...may we all have such profitable disasters. Can libraries buy the ICC on Logos? No. So they will purchase the hard copy like they always have, right? It's their only option. So...if the hardcopy sales of such items remain the same, why then this "worry" that e-books will pinch hardcopy sales? I think that is a phantom worry. And I am certain that there is a lower asking price that would generate more sales than what is currently expected for these resources.

I think this really is the crux of the issue. I asked the question in different words on the Baker thread and got silence. I fear that EULA is a wink and a nudge when institutions are involved and those of us who are looking to build our electronic library are out in the cold. Not blaming or casting aspersions just wishing it were different and seeing no reason why it is not attainable. The advent of digital media and distribution is hard on the old line rights holders and publishers though. This is really threatening their business model so they do have to go slow. Sometimes going slow just leaves you too far behind when you figure things out though.

Edwin Bowden

Michael Hyatt is the CEO of Thomas Nelson. He shares some key details in understanding Christian publishing.

http://michaelhyatt.com/2009/10/my-response-to-the-current-price-war-over-books.html#more-3379

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90780#Comment_90780

David is right at 500 dollars, I would have to have the Zondervan books, but the way it is I will most likely spend 129.00 for one set of commentaries and never buy another book in that group.

It would be interesting if a third party website ran a "Community Pricing" style of a poll to see what Logos users are willing to spend (or not) to get the Zondervan collection. Not that it would really make a difference.

NetworkGeek

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91001#Comment_91001

For me, if I saw them on Pre-pub at a 20% or 25% discount even, I would sign up for the whole kit. My reasoning would be that it was a fair, and probably their best price barring something unusual happening down the road, but as others have said, I would have the advantage of using it that long. At list price, there is no incentive to move now, other than to encourage Zondervan to let Logos use sell their materials, and I can always change mymind down the road. I guess I just don't believe that list price is the best, or anywhere close to the best that can be done, so I am willing to wait.

Now I will also say, that if there were not so many other competitors for my resource dollar, I might buy at list. But there are so many pre pubs that are high quality resources at good prices, they just did a better job competing for my dollar.

Charlene

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91006#Comment_91006

Even though I have been reading all the responses concerning the Baker and Zondervan prices, I haven't responded. But I finally decided that I would voice my opinion as well.

When I read the link that Edwin posted by Michael Hyatt, I clicked on it and read it. It was quite interesting, as his take is that the authors are the ones that will be left out in the cold, due to Amazon or Wal Mart. Yet I have also read that authors are now going straight to the ebook format, as they see it as the wave of the future, which I believe also is the case. (This past September I bought a Kindle, and just in a few months I have already purchased 10-15 books. I have not bought a book to read in YEARS!). So actually it is the publisher that will be affected the most, not the authors., and the customers will still be able to enjoy the savings that they have been getting.

I too have not bought any of the Baker Prepubs, as the price is not "enticing" to me, without the discount. But, then I have not been one of those who have been clamoring for Baker books; thus there is no guilt on my part. Not that I don't want their products, I do. It's just that the price does make a difference.

I am glad for those who have plenty of money and that the cost of the book does not affect their decisions in purchasing Prepubs. But there are many people who just don't have the money and have to be more frugal in their purchasing decisions.It's not that they don't want to buy the books, but that this is just the reality of their finances. This is understandable.

I don't fault Bob or Logos in what has happened. They are a business and must do what they need to do to continue to survive in these difficult times. I appreciate all that they have done and will continue to purchase their products. But at the same time, I also have to be wise in my purchasing. So, in most cases, if there is an "unbeatable" deal, then probably I will partake, if possible. If there isn't a discount, then I will continue to buy just those books that are, if possible. After all, the books are to enhance my ability to teach, not to become the driving factor in my life.

And yes, Kevin, it does sound like that message of the facts you presented has been repeated over and over and yet, somehow, the publishers are just not getting the message. Oh well, what can you do?

However, all that said, I do want to say: Thanks again, Logos, for all that you do. I do appreciate it!

Robert Mullen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90992#Comment_90992

Michael Hyatt is the CEO of Thomas Nelson. He shares some key details in understanding Christian publishing.

http://michaelhyatt.com/2009/10/my-response-to-the-current-price-war-over-books.html#more-3379

I actually think he is missing the point entirely and if I were on the Board at TN I would be concerned with the company's future. The deep discounting of physical media by those who control the retail presence is surely problematic but I would argue that this retail presence model is dying. Look at what has happened in the last 5 years to the music industry and the video rental industry. Apple came in with iTunes and your FYI, Sam Goody, Music Warehouse and other chains slipped into the (soon to be electronic) pages of history. Netflix entered the fray along with Redbox and other kiosk players and have rapidly ended the dominance of Hollywood Video and Blockbuster. That medium still requires bandwidth that doesn't allow full electronic delivery either. Even the kiosk players are going to be short lived.

The days of Borders, Barnes and Nobles, and others is limited regardless of what happens. They will be replaced by 2 or 3 major electronic delivery players (Apple and Amazon likely to be 2 of them.) The cost at retail is not likely to ever recover fully but the number of printed books should shrink drastically and price of production and distribution should come down. Those positioned for electronic delivery will benefit more than anyone else. IMO they will have opportunities to become content creators and will try to win market share with exclusive content. Authors will be fine as they will no longer be beholden to major publishing houses. Independent works will be far easier to get published electronically. Consumers will have more choice (but probably lower quality on average) at cheaper prices too. I could see a day in the future where a company like Logos is actually a major content producer as well as a provider of other publishers content. They are gearing up very well with their platform. If I were Bob I would start up an independent new media publishing arm and look for some intelligent thinkers doing doctoral work at respected seminaries and publish their works exclusively on the Logos platform. I might even look at a dedicated piece of reader hardware that handled the workflow of Logos perfectly.

Personally I think the only ones who lose in this new model are the old guard publishing houses that don't react quickly thus letting the upstarts get a significant head start.

David Paul

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91038#Comment_91038

Personally I think the only ones who lose in this new model are the old guard publishing houses that don't react quickly thus letting the upstarts get a significant head start.

Yeah, I agree with this...the handwriting is on the wall...or should I say "the typing is on the monitor." The publishing houses for the most part are zombies at this point...the walking dead. Only the ones who sprint toward the e-book/e-publishing model will survive. But with that said, I think some on this thread are missing my original point.

My argument has less to do with e-books & e-publishing in general and more to do with Biblical Studies Resources in particular. Our interest is obviously a narrow one...prophecy bears that out, sadly. But to make a generic statement about how there is "only" a single digit rise in e-book sales is missing the trees for the forest. That may be true in comparison to the publishing industry in general, but I don't give a flip about the publishing industry. I care about Biblical resources, and specifically reference resources. The market Logos users represents is brand new and gravy to publishers, and has a negligible impact on hardcopy sales. Any issue or concern that is outside of our very narrow pervue is completely irrelevant. We are a unique market, and publishers/rights-holders ought to get that through their apparently thick skulls. THEY WILL MAKE MUCH MORE MONEY IF THEY CHANGE THEIR MODEL FOR SELLING BIBLICAL STUDIES RESOURCES TO A BULK SALES/DEEP DISCOUNT MODEL. Get my point...if I didn't think the previous sentence was true, I wouldn't be constantly hammering this point on this forum, I'd be contentedly perusing my far, far, far smaller and less useful collection of Bible resources. But there IS A BETTER OPTION...

Consider this analogy: if I am watching my team play football and the quarterback has to throw the ball out of bounds because the pass protection is so heavy, I am disappointed but not upset because their were no good viable options...I simply accept the unfortunate situation. But if the QB tosses the ball out of bounds when there is a receiver standing wide open, jumping up and down and waving his hands, I'm going to be upset. Why? Because it wasn't a situation that had no better options. Coming back to our concerns, there is a FAR, FAR BETTER OPTION that exists right now--and it is peculair to our little neck of the ebook world--which consists of the spanking new realites which hyperlinking gives us as Bible researchers. I can accomplish the impossible today as a result of the digital age. But we are facing a QB in the publishing industry who can't see the open receiver. I keep saying it and it's true--IF YOU WANT TO PICK MY POCKET THEN GIVE ME A DEAL I CAN'T PASS UP. It's moronically simple...but the Neanderthal thinking of the publishers can't see the open man. They've been calling the same routes for so long, if a receiver isn't where they think he should be, they toss it out of bounds. What they seem oblivious to is that often broken passing routes can turn into the biggest plays.

What we have in our provincial area of concern (electronic bible resources) is an opportunity for a SCORE for both the publishers/authors AND the end users. Logos has proven over and over again with their extreme value base packages that a market for bulk purchase bible resources is thriving...reference Bob's hat-in-hand apology for not perceiving fully how well the increased value of the L4 rollout would boost sales projections. I didn't buy Portfolio because of L4. As I've lamented elsewhere, I don't see an improvement over L3 in the way I USE the software. I bought Portfolio because in my mind I would have been a fool to pass up that amazing but long hoped for value...I just use the new resources in L3.

My personal copy of Word commentary is a result of digital hyperlinking and Logos Software...period. I never even heard of that commentary until Logos became part of my life. Even after I heard about it, it wouldn't have become part of my life without the Nelson Unlock and the discount it offerred. I could say the same for many other resources. I own them not because I wanted them (though that is true), I own them because I could afford them. When a ridiculously good deal pops up, I FIND A WAY to take advantage of it.

Do I think what I am saying will play in other areas of the publishing industry? I doubt it. We are a BRAND NEW specialty niche and so the rules of the game should change to take advantage of the new landscape. Publishers, DEEP DISCOUNT BULK is the name of this particular game IF you want to touch my wallet. You want cash and I want resources. My hands are waving and I'm jumping up and down. Please don't throw the ball out of bounds.

Robert Mullen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91111#Comment_91111

A further difference in this niche is that good material sells for a long time. Any mainstream book whether reference or fiction fades a lot more quickly and simply stops selling. A good classic commentary probably maintains its sales pace fairly steadily over decade time frames. How many seminary students, SS teachers, pastors, et al would own some of these commentaries at $400 as opposed to $2,000? I do hope the publishing companies see this some day soon. There is a whole market out there I don't think they see.

Matthew C Jones

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91111#Comment_91111

I could say the same for many other resources. I own them not because I wanted them (though that is true), I own them because I could afford them. When a ridiculously good deal pops up, I FIND A WAY to take advantage of it.

Me too. That is why I am extremely grateful to Bob & Dan Pritchett, Dave Kaplan and everybody else in the Logos family for making quality resources available at unbelievable discounts. The Community Pricing program gives me titles as low as $7. The Pre-Pub program gives me whole collections at 70% off. The Portfolio Edition was discounted to a fire-sale price. I do not have the slightest hint of animosity towards Logos for the "retail" Pre-Pub pricing of Baker & Zondervan. If Bob owned all the rights we would probably see another huge discount offered.

I only wish the other publishers would listen.

Allen Browne

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/90992#Comment_90992

Michael Hyatt is the CEO of Thomas Nelson. He shares some key details in understanding Christian publishing.
http://michaelhyatt.com/2009/10/my-response-to-the-current-price-war-over-books.html#more-3379

Edwin, thanks for posting that link.

While Michael Hyatt has some interesting points, it bothers me that he runs a publishing company but seems not to understand the nature of the information revolution. People who used to work as compositors but failed to read this this change, found themselves unemployed. Printers had to adapt. So did illustrators and graphic designers and ...

At least the Logos team is grappling with what these changes mean, who the ebook users are now and will be in the future, how to ethically market and adequately support these users, ... while this segment and users' expectations are in a state of flux, and other companies like Amazon are attempting to "own" the market for their future advantage.

I still don't buy the argument that ebooks should be as expensive as paying middle-men to pulp trees, press ink on them, carry them around the planet, and staff the shops. We could still pay the author, publisher (acquisition and review) and etailer (Logos) without all those other guys.

Of course, my argument is on cost-to-produce basis, not what-the-market-will-stand (Logos?) or what-we-can-make-if-own-the-market (Amazon.)

Mike Aubrey

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91234#Comment_91234

We could still pay the author, publisher (acquisition and review) and etailer (Logos) without all those other guys.

And those three continue to be the majority of the cost.

Rich DeRuiter

I've read a lot of both of those discussions.

It seems to me that we should be careful of self-serving logic here. All these arguments seem perfectly reasonable from our perspective as people who want to spend less and get more. (And I suppose there a discussions in publishers board rooms that are equally self-serving, as people who want to maximize profits for their company and their share holders.) In both threads, arguments and facts that would seem to suggest modifying a perspective are dismissed or crushed, or simply ignored.

Money does funny things to a discussion.

Actually, maybe 'funny' isn't the best word.

Kevin A. Purcell

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91273#Comment_91273

I've read a lot of both of those discussions.

It seems to me that we should be careful of self-serving logic here. All these arguments seem perfectly reasonable from our perspective as people who want to spend less and get more. (And I suppose there a discussions in publishers board rooms that are equally self-serving, as people who want to maximize profits for their company and their share holders.) In both threads, arguments and facts that would seem to suggest modifying a perspective are dismissed or crushed, or simply ignored.

Money does funny things to a discussion.

Actually, maybe 'funny' isn't the best word.

If I were be totally self serving in my logic I would say they should do as I do and give away much of my content. I don't get paid for a lot content I put out there as an author. But I am not saying that. I am saying that digital content has a different cost/value than hard copy content. Publishers don't see that and that is why they are struggling to make the shift into a digital economy. Some doing well - like Logos and many of their publisher partners. But some are not as is evidneced by the Kindle/MacMillan conflict.

Robert Mullen

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91402#Comment_91402

Bob makes an interesting point about the support aspect of software delivery and the changing platform (bigger,better, faster) on one of these threads. I had not considered this as deeply as I should have. Logos for the most part gives away its software and charges for the library.That is necessarily going to drive up the cost per unit. Nobody has to re-invent paper or ink every five years. I would image the printing technology itself has a lifecycle but is surely more mature and less prone to expensive change. The support angle is also something borne almost entirely by this "new media" so those costs deserve fair consideration. I think they are probably minimal on a per unit bases when considering folks with medium to large libraries. If I had to guess I bet support costs are very disproportionate (at least on a per unit basis) for those that are one-off purchasers of the smaller packages. Folks buying repeatedly or willing to invest 4 figure sums on their libraries are probably more knowledgeable about the software and less likely to call. I could see them being more insistent when they did call though. Very, thought provoking discussions. It will be interesting to see how this all shakes out in the years to come.

As far as self serving goes, I would agree that my comments are self serving to the degree that I want to have access to the best resources I can to further my study of what God condescended to leave behind for us. I make no money from my investment and have no desire to. I want to be able to study richly and where God wills, to share that knowledge with others. Many, have shared with me to this point and I am grateful to each for their giving.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/91578#Comment_91578

I have no feelings one way or another about the cost per unit or the underlying technology that is "reinventing" bible software as we know it....really just the cost. However, I would caution from becoming overly excited about one platform or another in the e-book industry when big players like this are coming into the market...

"The ASA will enable the parties to make available to people throughout the country millions of out-of-print books," Google said in its brief. "This is precisely the kind of beneficial innovation that the antitrust laws are intended to encourage, not to frustrate."

Google also took a swing at corporate rivals, noting that Microsoft Corp had abandoned its own book project.

"Competitors such as Amazon raise anxieties about Google's potential market position, but ignore their own entrenched market dominance," Google said in its brief.

Another objection has been that it is inappropriate to use the class action mechanism "to implement forward-looking business arrangements." But, Google said, the Justice Department did not point to any cases disapproving a settlement on those grounds."

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE61B0AN20100212?type=technologyNews

Its not a big jump to see Google jumping into the "bible software" market with a reader that easily rivals Logos at a cheaper rate for the software and library. Remember the Beta vs. Vhs wars? IMO buy what you need and save the rest because technology, and the big boys, may eat up this market niche.