Zondercrooks stick it to Pradis users

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Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2010 5:06 PM

Thought  I would revive this thread since Zondercrook's stuff is finally shipping.   I really have nothing new to say except that Zondercrooks never answered my email.  Not really surprised.  I'm not angry anymore but as I said before I definitely will not be buying any more Zondercrook resources.  This is one customer they have lost forever,Big Smile

 

Posts 1539
Terry Poperszky | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2010 5:11 PM

Well, I had EBC on Paper, and that will find a home in the Library of a friend. I had Pradis version of it and that has already been given away to be used as long as it will work. I now have EBC in Logos format and I am happy with the discount/pricing that Logos/Zondervan gave me.

You have every right to your frustration and beliefs Richard, I just personally don't share them.

 

 

Posts 60
Richard Crampton | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 16 2010 5:52 PM

Glad for you Terry;)  If I only had the EBC I would not be nearly as frustrated but  I own a $1000 dollars worth of Pradis resources which would cost me over a $1000 to update.  The fact is some of I what I have is not even upgradeable.  

Posts 94
David N. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 29 2011 1:52 AM

2011/01/29

Hi David,

You bring up so many good and worthwhile points!

David Mullens:
This is my main issue with any electronic resource. I love Logos (never had Pradis), but I hate that if Logos ever decides to go a different direction, or go out of business. I'm stuck. I loose my resources.

I love the ability to do searches and having my entire library on my computer. In some ways I think it is cheaper purchasing the electronic sources that it is the paper resources. Yet, I can keep those books around for decades (well, I guess there is always the chance of fire/flood).

I am a Logos 4 Scholar's Gold "owner", so I am very heavily invested in Logos andI would definitely be stuck if Logos went out of business or "dead ended" as we've seen with some Bible study companies / software (as in the case of Pradis.)

I also own BibleWorks and I saw a very interesting article on the BibleWorks website having to do with the debate over purchasing electronic resources as opposed to paper resources.  The article is called:  "The Digital Ice Age" on the Popular Mechanics website.  You can see it here: 
Digital Ice Age Article

I was pleasantly surprised with the stance of the folks at BibleWorks who cautioned their customers against purchasing too many digital resources without having the physical paper version as a backup.

David Mullens:
In many ways we are dependent on the company to do the right thing. Zondervan, as far as I know, is not a "christian" company. They are owned by HarperCollins. I believe they started out as a Christian company, but I believe that ended a while back if I remember correctly. 

Perhaps the best thing about Logos is that they are not a publishing company making an electronic version of their products, but rather a software company licensing books...

I am very concerned about some of the practices that I see Logos adopting, which to me, are not the business practices of a Christian company.  One of which is charging a fee ($20 per Resource - last I knew) to transfer ownership of a product  to someone else.  This is a fairly new practice by Logos.  Previously there was no charge to transfer ownership of your resources to someone else and in my opinion, this is immoralMore on this in a moment under your comment concerning licensing.

David Mullens:
...although if the license holder decides not to allow Logos to license the books...there is trouble there too.

I ran into this issue with another Bible study software program.  I have also substantially invested in "PC Study Bible" by Biblesoft and I have been with Biblesoft from the days of 3.5" disks.  I made a purchase of a Resource from a third-party company back in PCSB version 2 days.  Then when PCSB version 3 came out - I no longer had access to this particular Resource.  I called Biblesoft and found out that because of licensing problems with the copyright holder AND because of questions in regard to the acceptability of this Resource (by corporate Biblesoft), it would no longer be supported. 

There are two issues here:  1)  The "End User" / customer is then subject to the whims of the squabbles between corporations - and directly impacted even though the customer has had no chance for input into the decision (as in the case of licensing issues stated here.)  and 2) Biblesoft decided what was OK for me to have in my library - when they should not have any "say" in what I have once I have the program on my computer and if I purchase items from a third party!

So from my personal experience, I am concerned about similar issues with Logos.  Especially since now, with Logos 4 - we no longer have easy access to our licenses (as we did with Libronix 3) and for whatever reason, since our licensing is on the Logos servers, we might not have access to our library or portions of our library at the corporate Logos level - without our input.

David Mullens:
Don't get me started on kindle vs. nook vs. iBook. In the end...we don't _own_ anything...I guess we only purchase the right to use it as long as the rights holder decides we can use it  :( 

A further example here of my own personal experience is that I purchased an add-on of Microsoft Access for Microsoft Office on eBay and I registered my product with Microsoft and had many months of "genuine" Microsoft updates and support.  One day I went to do an Office Update - and Microsoft informed me that my copy of Access was no longer "genuine!"  I called Microsoft immediately and by tracing back my Product Key, it was determined that there was some kind of problem with the eBay Seller (and they couldn't tell me what, because of confidentiality) - and therefore - EVERY Microsoft product that this eBay Seller sold was no longer validEnd of story!  I had no recourse with Microsoft and by that time, I had no recourse with the Seller because this was many months later!  So I was out $100 (or whatever it was.)  It seemed so capricious that Microsoft would invalidate my software after probably 6 months of the "genuine advantage" - which is NO advantage at all to the customer.

I am not saying that Logos will treat it's customers in the same way - but we would be kidding ourselves not to recognize the potential for this same kind of treatment, since we no longer manager our own licenses in Logos 4 (as we were able to do in Libronix 3.)

Virtually all companies have you agree to the End User License Agreement (EULA) which says you don't "own" the software -- your purchase price is a licensing FEE - so you can't resell the software if you don't want it anymore - because it's NOT YOURS to sell!  BUT - the issue of reselling software and the end user's rights under the "EULA" has finally taken a favorable turn (as regards the people who "purchase" the software - and that's US!)  See this article:  Court Says Reselling Software Is Okay 

So things may be changing on that front.

Thanks for your post.

David

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1 Timothy 1:17

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 29 2011 2:04 AM

David:
I am very concerned about some of the practices that I see Logos adopting, which to me, are not the business practices of a Christian company.  One of which is charging a fee ($20 per Resource - last I knew) to transfer ownership of a product  to someone else.  This is a fairly new practice by Logos. 

You've misunderstood Logos' policy. The fee is $20 for your whole library. You should also read this: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/87/677.aspx#677

Posts 94
David N. | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 29 2011 3:20 AM

2011/01/29

Hi Mark,

Thanks for your reply. 

Mark Barnes:

You've misunderstood Logos' policy. The fee is $20 for your whole library. You should also read this: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/87/677.aspx#677

Actually, I was going by what was specifically told to my by a Logos Customer Service Rep when I called.  Maybe the policy was changed since that call.

Regarding the link you sent, I read the thread and in my particular situation, I wanted to transfer the ownership of a Resource on CD that I bought apart from a "bundled, discounted package" and it also was NOT part of my upgrade path.  So there weren't any "dependencies" associated with the the transfer.  I can certainly understand why a bundled, base package could not be split up and I would never have considered attempting that.

But, I did learn from that thread that the $20 fee is "per transaction" and not "per Resource" as I had been originally told by Logos Customer Service. 

I also learned that Bob Pritchett is the President/CEO of Logos Bible Software.  It was most encouraging for me to read that the president of the company was actively participating in the dialog on the Logos Forum.  I can think of another Bible software company where that is not the case - and it leaves the User Base feeling unappreciated at best.

David

 

Dell OptiPlex 745 - Intel Core 2 Duo 1.8GHz - 4GB RAM - XP Pro SP3
Seagate 160GB - 7200RPM - ATI Radeon x1300 256MB PCI-e

1 Timothy 1:17

Posts 10338
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 29 2011 9:00 AM

Well, I'm sure among the Logosian families, there's probably a number of business owners. Customers want businesses to be loyal to the customers, but when a customer sees a new opportunity, they jump-ship in a heartbeat. So realistically, businesses pursuing their own destiny should be the expectation. With the L4 approach, I decided to lock-in on L3 and call it a day. My planning horizon is about 15 years or so, given my age, and judging from my dad who was a pastor. Even last year, I had another of my Bible software programs bite the dust. I knew the owner and I made no complaint ... he had to do what he had to do. So it goes.

I am a little uncomfortable with the recent issues with New Interpreters (pricing) and what appears to be an on-going 'discussion' with a publisher, thus holding up resource access. I'd assume the discussion will naturally impact 'me', as being the eventual purchaser. This is the new world of 'ebooks'.

 


Posts 249
Giovanni Baggio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 29 2011 7:58 PM

Richard Crampton:

 I want Zondervan to know how I feel about they have treated me as a customer.  I think Zondercrooks pretty much covers that.

I feel your pain but if you really want to let Zondercrooks know how you feel then you must take it to their own turf not logos forums.  Is not logos fault that ZondercrooksBig Smile...lol...is making you pay twice for a resource you already own.  It doesn't matter if they've given you a discount you're still paying twice.  So far I'm very happy that all my zondervan titles have always been in logos.  I have some titles, very few, in another bible program, but I would be willing to pay again for those if I could get them in Logos 4 format.  I'm glad I'm getting the Butler's Biography series and Studies on the Savior, I had them in this other Bible program, but still had the chance to cancel my order to pre-pub them in Logos instead.

So let's be nice and civil and take your complains to Zondervan and their own corp.  Remember, we must pray for those who do us wrong...

Giovanni

Posts 846
Eric Weiss | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 29 2011 9:55 PM

Richard Crampton:

They may be publishers of Christian resources but they certainly don't operate by Christian principles.   Thanks for listening, Pastor Rick Crampton

Just curious: What "Christian principle" is Zondervan violating with respect to the discount pricing for (re)purchasing Pradis products in Logos?

 

Optimistically Egalitarian (Galatians 3:28)

Posts 2423
David Ames | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 30 2011 5:22 AM

The normal rule in the industry is that if you own more than one way to read their product you pay full price for each way [that is you pay full piece for each version; paper, LOGOS, e, q, a or whatever]

 

The normal rule is that if a company abandons its product you lose the product when the hardware/operating system will no longer run it. [Thank you Logos for updating the book data files as your product changed]

 

Why are there so many different Modern Bibles? Bibles sell – but you can only sell at a high price if you own [or license] the copyright.  [Same rules seems to apply for all other printed products]

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 30 2011 7:24 AM

David N.:
2011/01/29

David N.,

I guess you know you replied to a 10 month old post ("David Mullens Replied: Feb 21, 2010 12:56 PM") since you kindly dated yours. Also, please note that was the only post ever made by David Mullens so it is possible he does not read the forums often and may never run across this thread again.

But I am glad you posted on this subject because you bring up some interesting points.

David N.:
I was pleasantly surprised with the stance of the folks at BibleWorks who cautioned their customers against purchasing too many digital resources without having the physical paper version as a backup.

I've mentioned this one before. It is similar to General Motors selling me a car and recommending I keep a horse and buggy for backup transportation. (Don't get me wrong, I'm retired from GM and I own BibleWorks 8. I bear no animosity towards BibleWorks.) It makes sense to have an oil lamp for when the electricity goes out. But keeping 5000 books in case Logos goes out of business is a little cumbersome.

David N.:
One of which is charging a fee ($20 per Resource - last I knew) to transfer ownership of a product  to someone else.

When Logos first announced the transfer fee some Customer Service Reps thought it was per license. Bob Pritchett quickly clarified the policy. I can transfer everything I own to you for $20 if it is done in one transaction. If I transfered one each day I would be charged $20 each day for the next couple months.

David N.:

the issue of reselling software and the end user's rights under the "EULA" has finally taken a favorable turn

Last Summer I brought this up   http://community.logos.com/forums/p/359/3440.aspx#3440    in this thread.  Read the whole thread. It is quite interesting.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 30 2011 8:02 AM

David N.:

David Mullens:
...although if the license holder decides not to allow Logos to license the books...there is trouble there too.

 

I too invested more than I care to mention in resources for other software products that I no longer have access too (Biblesoft and Quickverse). One company says that they don't have funds to update their software and the update for the other doesn't have the resouces available and doesn't support the files I bought before.  This hasn't been a problem with Logos.  I have resources that I purchased on 3.5" floppies that Logos no longer has a license for.  Although I couldn't buy them today the books do download automatically when  I install Logos 4.  In a post to the forums Bob has told us that we would never lose any resource we had purchased from Logos and addressed concerns about about the long term viability of Logos as a company.

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 30 2011 9:42 PM

Mike W:
One company says that they don't have funds to update their software and the update for the other doesn't have the resouces available and doesn't support the files I bought before.  This hasn't been a problem with Logos.  I have resources that I purchased on 3.5" floppies that Logos no longer has a license for.  Although I couldn't buy them today the books do download automatically when  I install Logos 4.

In reality, you and Logos still have a legal (licensed) copy of those resources because they are "grandfathered" in. If the other software companies are telling the truth about their resource licenses terminating, it is because they were not as savvy as the Logos legal negotiators. The other guys contracts might have had a termination date on how long or a unit cap on how many licenses they could sell. When a student buys an academic license for most CAD software it has a timed expiration of the license. But when I bought an academic license for Microsoft Office Ultimate I received a perpetual, upgradeable license. Logos knows how to negotiate better than the other guys. That is why I trust we will eventually see the Anchor Yale Bible Reference Library actually released in Logos. It also explains how we got Abingdon's New Interpreter's Bible and New Interpreter's Dictionary of the Bible, as well as the Zondervan Bible Reference Bundles ONE & TWO. Both of these publisher were very possessive of their desirable titles. There may be a clause in the contract that will allow publishers to withdraw their titles from the Logos catalog but anyone who has purchased the title will still own it. That is a good reason to buy it now while it is still available. Big Smile

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 274
Mike W | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 31 2011 8:04 AM

Matthew C Jones:
In reality, you and Logos still have a legal (licensed) copy of those resources because they are "grandfathered" in. If the other software companies are telling the truth about their resource licenses terminating, it is because they were not as savvy as the Logos legal negotiators.

 

The bottom line is that I haven't lost anything by investing in Logos resources and I believe that it is safe to continue to buy books in Logos format.  Whether it is a problem with licensing agreements or a company changing formats and choosing not to upgrade some resources doesn't really matter. At some point in the past few years every non-free Windows based bible software company that I'm aware of except Logos has changed format or platforms and users have lost resources that they have purchased.  I realize at this point that I sound like a Logos FanBoy so let me say that  I do use another commercial program in addition to Logos and a few free programs due to availability of resources that Logos doesn't carry.

Posts 10338
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 31 2011 8:56 AM

Well, I think being in the Logos family, you can be MORE than a fan-boy. You can be an INVESTOR! After Matthew's interesting in a Japanese interlinear, I wrote to the Japan Bible Society to see if I could get it (my spouse if Japanese). They pointed me to Amazon.jp where the price is now DOUBLE the JBS page. Wow. I'm not sure the used version could get into L4 (licenses) but the Logos 'historicity' does create an interesting market for older resources.


Posts 602
Ted Weis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jan 31 2011 3:39 PM

When the NIVAC came out on Logos, I felt fortunate to sell my Praxis version for $50--telling the buyer up front that Zondervan was no longer supporting the product.

Someone got a great deal--the entire NT of the Application series. But I was glad to get the series integrated into my Logos and get what felt like a $50 rebate.

These new releases are expenses, but they're also quality stuff. I just wish Old Testament Today by Hill and Walton was included. That's a great book!

 

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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jun 18 2011 12:37 PM

Denise Barnhart:

Well, I think being in the Logos family, you can be MORE than a fan-boy. You can be an INVESTOR! After Matthew's interesting in a Japanese interlinear, I wrote to the Japan Bible Society to see if I could get it (my spouse if Japanese). They pointed me to Amazon.jp where the price is now DOUBLE the JBS page. Wow. I'm not sure the used version could get into L4 (licenses) but the Logos 'historicity' does create an interesting market for older resources.

I am sorry to hear that. Does the JBS not offer it anymore? I had just purchased A-Bible (Japanese Bible software) just before I was made aware of the Libronix Greek-Japanese Interlinear. I figured I would purchase the Libronix whenever I "got around to it." 

And then there is the question of whether or not the Libronix Japanese text will work in :Logos 4.   Let me know if you ever try it.

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 10338
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 19 2011 6:25 AM

Unfortunately, we're giving 'Zondercrooks' some air-time!

It's hard to figure what JBS actually offers; I get the feeling their site wasn't updated. The next big run into Tokyo, we'll swing by JBS and see where they're at. It's always good to encourage and help out if need be.

It's kind of ironic that a Japanese interlinear is so hard to come by. I have a Navajo/english which I like a lot, and there's not an overwhelming number of Navajo Christians. Kind of interesting.


Posts 325
Michael | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 19 2011 2:33 PM

I'm confused.  Since Logos4 is on my PC, and the resources I have are alos on my PC, if Logos went out of business, I would still have both available to me on the PC correct?  Just updates would be discontinued and no new resources made available.  Am I missing something?

Posts 8893
fgh | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jun 19 2011 3:02 PM

Michael:

I'm confused.  Since Logos4 is on my PC, and the resources I have are alos on my PC, if Logos went out of business, I would still have both available to me on the PC correct?  Just updates would be discontinued and no new resources made available.  Am I missing something?

Maybe the fact that both hardware and software have rather short life spans? How long will your PC last? How long will it take until a new OS can no longer run Logos? 

"The Christian way of life isn't so much an assignment to be performed, as a gift to be received."  Wilfrid Stinissen

Mac Pro OS 10.9.

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