Catholic Version of the Church Fathers

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This post has 55 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 2821
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Dec 6 2015 5:23 PM

Is there material in the Catholic version of the Church Father's not found in the Protestant version?

What other differences are there?  Would it be worthwhile to own both?

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2015 5:30 PM

From what I understand it actually has less material. The editors of the set were't always kind in their editorial comments to the Catholic Church.

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2015 5:37 PM

I found this bit of info from five years back: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/14141/108642.aspx#108642

"The primary difference between the Protestant and Catholic editions is that the Protestant edition has all of the footnotes, and I believe many of the footnotes in the Catholic version have been excised. When we originally released the ECF (back in 1997, I think ... phew, long time ago) we had feedback from Catholic users, booksellers and distributors that the Schaff edition had a large degree of anti-Catholic material in the footnotes and that, for this market, the better product would be to excise those."

Posts 928
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2015 7:04 PM

From https://www.logos.com/product/7832/early-church-fathers-special-catholic-edition

The Early Church Fathers comes in two versions, Protestant and Catholic. Simply put, the difference is that the Protestant edition contains additional front matter written at a later date. There is no difference in the actual ECF text.

I already have the Protestant version, and I hesitate to buy any package or bundle that includes the Catholic version because it seems like I am paying for the exact same thing twice, which Faithlife prides itself in saying never happens. I wish there was a way around this. For someone who already has the Protestant version, buying the Catholic version would just waste money and produce duplicate search results. For those who have both sets, is there any reason NOT to hide one of them? 

Posts 3007
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2015 7:25 PM

Matthew:
I already have the Protestant version, and I hesitate to buy any package or bundle that includes the Catholic version because it seems like I am paying for the exact same thing twice, which Faithlife prides itself in saying never happens. I wish there was a way around this. For someone who already has the Protestant version, buying the Catholic version would just waste money and produce duplicate search results

I share your aversion, but in the opposite direction, as I have the Catholic version.

Posts 2851
Sascha John | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2015 8:59 PM

I dit the Churchfathers Training with learn Logos. And there say the only differents is in the For Texts. The Text itself is the same.

Sascha

Posts 999
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 6 2015 11:52 PM

Matthew:

 For those who have both sets, is there any reason NOT to hide one of them? 

Yes, because links to one will not work with the other version (or at least they used not to).

Posts 2851
Sascha John | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 2:46 AM

Even the Text is the Same, the Footnotes and Commentaries may not. Could someone show a Pictures with both Versions on the same Page so we can see? I just have the German Catholic Version wich is different to my English Protestant.

Posts 928
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 4:03 AM

Mike Pettit:
Yes, because links to one will not work with the other version (or at least they used not to).

In theory this should only be the case if for some reason a link was resource specific rather than reference specific. That is the difference between a specific link to John 3:16 in the ESV versus a generic link to John 3:16 in any Bible. If I may ask, do you think what you experienced may have been the result of prioritization? I would think links would open in whichever set is prioritized, regardless of whether you prioritized it yourself or whether the software somehow chose. I am only speculating, since I don't have both versions. 

Posts 928
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 4:10 AM

SineNomine:
I share your aversion, but in the opposite direction, as I have the Catholic version.

Not that it is much consolation, but you would at least be gaining SOME new material, even if it is just in the form of footnotes and introductions. I would be essentially paying for a stripped down version that contains LESS information than the set I currently own.

The timing of this thread was very ironic for me. I am considering getting a base package while they are on sale and was contemplating starting a thread of my own to point out that this situation goes against Faithlife's policy of not paying for the same thing twice. Both sets are public domain, so it is not an issue with a third party publisher. 

Posts 999
Mike Pettit | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 5:23 AM

Matthew:

If I may ask, do you think what you experienced may have been the result of prioritization? I would think links would open in whichever set is prioritized, regardless of whether you prioritized it yourself or whether the software somehow chose. I am only speculating, since I don't have both versions. 

I had hidden the Roman version and the link that I used said that I did not have the resource, even though I had the protestant version unhidden.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 5:46 AM

Matthew:
In theory this should only be the case if for some reason a link was resource specific rather than reference specific. That is the difference between a specific link to John 3:16 in the ESV versus a generic link to John 3:16 in any Bible. If I may ask, do you think what you experienced may have been the result of prioritization? I would think links would open in whichever set is prioritized, regardless of whether you prioritized it yourself or whether the software somehow chose. I am only speculating, since I don't have both versions. 

The problem is two-fold.

(1) There aren't datatypes for some of the documents in ECF (one example is the Epistles of Clement on page 55 of ANF8), and so if you want to refer to these documents you have to use resource links. This means that any resources linking to them have to use resource-specific links. I think I'm right in saying that in the past there were even fewer datatypes, so some older resources may have resource-specific links even though they're not required now.

(2) When ECF was first built, Logos only served the protestant market. There was no thought that there might be an alternative edition of ECF, and therefore no ECF datatype was created. That's the decision (made nearly 20 years ago!) that's causing all the grief now! It means that resources that link specifically to a volume/page number in the ECF (one example is ACCS) have no choice but to link directly to one edition or the other.

If Logos want to solve this they would need to:

  1. Create datatypes for ANF and NPNF to reference volume/page numbers in those resources. (That's the easy part.)
  2. Replace all the milestones in those volumes to reference these new datatypes. (Probably fairly easy.)
  3. Search the entire Logos library for resource links to these volumes and replace them with reference links. (Very time consuming, and possibly impossible in a few cases).

I'd still like to see it done, though.

Posts 928
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 6:29 AM

Mark Barnes:
I'd still like to see it done, though.

Agreed. Granted, the two situations are not quite parallel, but Faithlife fixed a similar situation with Greek Grammar Beyond the Basics by Wallace. I would think that big picture a set like this is more important than a single Greek grammar. It is to no one's advantage to have two large redundant sets that cost hundreds of dollars, both of which have to be purchased for links to work. 

Posts 1771
Tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 6:59 AM

Sascha John:
Could someone show a Pictures with both Versions on the same Page so we can see?

Here is the table of contents: As you can see, the difference is in the additional material (notes).

The text is the same!  But the links in Logos are set to go to one or the other, too bad they do not allow us to chose!   For example the Catholic products I have, only pull up the non note version. 

www.hombrereformado.org  Solo a Dios la Gloria   Apoyo

Posts 928
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 7:01 AM

I have started a new thread asking for some of the points raised here to be addressed by Faithlife.

https://community.logos.com/forums/p/119909/786780.aspx#786780

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 3:01 PM

Mark Barnes:

If Logos want to solve this they would need to:

  1. Create datatypes for ANF and NPNF to reference volume/page numbers in those resources. (That's the easy part.)

I have a grander vision to include all Church Father documents ... the datatype scheme should be based on Migne at a minimum and then applied across the various available editions of the Church Fathers ... of which Schaff is the one I use least.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 3:38 PM

MJ. Smith:
I have a grander vision to include all Church Father documents ... the datatype scheme should be based on Migne at a minimum and then applied across the various available editions of the Church Fathers ... of which Schaff is the one I use least.

Why should Migne references be the standard? Surely the standard ought to be specific datatypes for each document (which is what we currently have, for the most part). The main issue here is not that we don't have a good enough datatype, the main issue here is that many resources refer specifically to a vol/page number Schaff, and we need to be able to handle that for two editions.

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 3:59 PM

I support applying some datatype scheme to ANF and NPNF. This seems warranted.

Mark Barnes:
When ECF was first built, Logos only served the protestant market. There was no thought that there might be an alternative edition of ECF, and therefore no ECF datatype was created. That's the decision (made nearly 20 years ago!) that's causing all the grief now! It means that resources that link specifically to a volume/page number in the ECF (one example is ACCS) have no choice but to link directly to one edition or the other.

OT: This may not be the exact reason why ECF datatypes were not created. Regarding Early Church Fathers editions I think both the Catholic and the Protestant products were released at the same time. There was a Catholic Collection in 1997 (Book Collections). I purchased the Catholic Scholar's Pack that was available in 1999.

From the start Faithlife (née Logos Research Systems) has sought to serve the Church catholic.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 4:21 PM

JAL:
OT: This may not be the exact reason why ECF datatypes were not created. Regarding Early Church Fathers editions I think both the Catholic and the Protestant products were released at the same time. There was a Catholic Collection in 1997 (Book Collections). I purchased the Catholic Scholar's Pack that was available in 1999.

I stand corrected. That seems a strange decision, therefore. (Or did datatypes not exist in the Logos Library System in 1996? I can't remember that far back!)

Posts 623
JAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Dec 7 2015 4:27 PM

Mark Barnes:
The main issue here is not that we don't have a good enough datatype, the main issue here is that many resources refer specifically to a vol/page number Schaff, and we need to be able to handle that for two editions.

I am hopeful that the need will someday be met and I am grateful for the improvements previously made: Logos Books Keep Getting Better.

"The Christian mind is the prerequisite of Christian thinking. And Christian thinking is the prerequisite of Christian action." - Harry Blamires, 1963

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