Please Address Public Domain Use/Republication Restrictions for Logos Users

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This post has 12 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 5
Under | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Feb 29 2016 9:49 PM

Faithlife has many Public Domain books digitized, and at a comparatively higher quality than some other places online. The EULA states that the Content (the books, media, etc.) are not copyrighted by Faithlife/Logos, but that they may not be copied outside of making backups for the licensed user, and must be treated as copyrighted.

It would be nice if in their EULA, Faithlife would specifically address the use/republication restrictions (or lack of additional restrictions) they put on their users when it comes to Public Domain content published through Logos. I understand Faithlife puts a lot of money and man-hours into digitizing the content (whether it's Public Domain or not), so I'm not really asking them to be more lenient on my use/republication of the material. What I'm asking (and suggesting) is that they simply make it clearer in their EULA where they stand on this issue, by directly addressing the Public Domain content they publish.

Yes

Thanks.

(P.S. I wouldn't want Logos to hurt their own business, like most everyone else here, I assume.)

(P.P.S. The EULA can be found here: https://www.logos.com/support/eula5)

Posts 1945
mike | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 29 2016 10:00 PM

You know why EULA was written by lawyers in the worst possible way right? Dog

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 29 2016 10:40 PM

Welcome Big Smile

Current EULA => https://www.logos.com/support/eula includes:

EULA:

Title

We remain the owner of all right, title and interest in the Software and Documentation. Ownership of the Content remains with Copyright holders.

 

Things you may not do

The Software, Content, and Documentation are protected by United States copyright laws and international treaties. You must treat the Software, Content, and Documentation as copyrighted material. You may not:

- copy the Documentation,

- copy the Software or Content except to make archival or backup copies as provided above,

- modify or adapt the Software or merge it into another program,

- reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to discover the source code of the Software,

- place the Software or Content onto a server so that it is accessible via a public network such as the Internet,

- sublicense, rent, lease or lend any portion of the Software, Content, or Documentation, or

- reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to "unlock" or circumvent the digital copyright protection of the Content.

Thankful for lots of content that can be used in Logos Bible Software.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 2695
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 29 2016 11:13 PM

https://www.logos.com/copyright-permissions

"There are no restrictions on the use of public domain content delivered through Faithlife / Logos services and applications."

However, I assume that only the plain text content is in the public domain. All the tagging etc. surely is not.

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
Why Amazon sucks: Full background story of my legal dispute with the online giant

Posts 5316
Dan Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 1 2016 10:45 AM

Jan Krohn:
However, I assume that only the plain text content is in the public domain. All the tagging etc. surely is not.

I am not even sure about that... I have heard of unethical companies getting in trouble for trying to use texts that have been imported by others... 

-Dan

Posts 5
Under | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 1 2016 9:12 PM

Jan Krohn:

https://www.logos.com/copyright-permissions

"There are no restrictions on the use of public domain content delivered through Faithlife / Logos services and applications."

However, I assume that only the plain text content is in the public domain. All the tagging etc. surely is not.

That's good to hear. I still think it would be good to see some recognition of this in the EULA, though. The EULA says (as almost all agreements do) that it's the sole agreement between users and Faithlife, so it would be nice to see them at least briefly address this issue in the EULA itself. Perhaps even adding a link to the above article for more information (without including it as part of the agreement, if possible). If nothing else, it could help people understand what they can and can't do easier, because the EULA is probably the first thing people are going to see regarding this issue.

EULA:

1. This written license agreement is the exclusive agreement between you and us concerning the Software, Content, and Documentation and supersedes any and all prior oral or written agreements, negotiations or other dealings between us concerning the Software.


Dan Francis:

Jan Krohn:
However, I assume that only the plain text content is in the public domain. All the tagging etc. surely is not.

I am not even sure about that... I have heard of unethical companies getting in trouble for trying to use texts that have been imported by others... 

-Dan

As far as I understand copyright law, if someone takes a book in the Public Domain and makes any changes to it, the content that was original is still Public Domain, but the person owns copyrights for the changes. So if I were to digitize a book and in the process changed the overall format of the book, corrected some spelling, and changed abbreviations like "etc." to full-length words, those changes would be copyrighted. However, it's only copyrighted if it's my exact changes (because anyone can go back to the original and make the same or similar changes), so generally this kind of copyright is only worth being considered if the whole work edited by me is copied, like in a PDF (where it's obvious it's my exact work). (That's probably where companies have gotten into trouble.)

That's why when I look for Public Domain books, I like to find people who are willing to do the work, and then specifically submit any extra copyrights they have to any of their additions to the Public Domain as well. This way I know everything in the work is in the Public Domain, and there's absolutely no need to worry about finding an original and cross-checking anything.

Posts 5
Under | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 1 2016 9:24 PM

I'm from the Logos 5 time-period by the way, I just never really used the forums after they switched them over. I don't currently use Logos on my computer, because I don't have windows or Mac (which makes Biblia.com very useful for accessing and using my Logos books, when I want to).

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 1 2016 9:33 PM

AFAIK the switch to the forums happened a bit before Logos 4. What I fail to understand is why you need to know the precise copyright status. If you have need to use the text beyond the standard fair-use provisions, you can just right Faithlife and ask permission - if they have no rights, they'll know and tell you.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 5
Under | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 1 2016 10:01 PM

MJ. Smith:

AFAIK the switch to the forums happened a bit before Logos 4.

Maybe you're right. It's been a while since I've had the opportunity to use Logos, but I thought for sure I had Logos 5, and I know I've posted on the forum once before (yet here I am with no old posts on the counter).

MJ. Smith:

What I fail to understand is why you need to know the precise copyright status. If you have need to use the text beyond the standard fair-use provisions, you can just right Faithlife and ask permission - if they have no rights, they'll know and tell you.

I like to keep my options open, and I generally prefer using Public Domain books when I'm doing research. I'm not really looking for Faithlife to tell me "the precise copyright status of every work", I can determine if a book is in the Public Domain or not myself without Faithlife. I just think a change to their EULA might be helpful and make things clearer for their customers in regards to PD works. As far as myself, even this clarification I don't really need, it's just generally nice to know what I can and cannot do with Faithlife's digitized Public Domain books. That's all.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 1 2016 10:05 PM

I understand now. But I doubt that they would be able to do it as copyright laws vary by country. I know of some specific oddities (from the American perspective) in the British public domain rules that affect the West Gallery singing community.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 1 2016 10:09 PM

Under:
... I know I've posted on the forum once before (yet here I am with no old posts on the counter).

Changing email address resets forum counter.

Keep Smiling Smile

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Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 1 2016 10:53 PM

MJ. Smith:

I understand now. But I doubt that they would be able to do it as copyright laws vary by country. I know of some specific oddities (from the American perspective) in the British public domain rules that affect the West Gallery singing community.

Exactly. The EULA is a legal binding contract probably under US law. Best example should be the KJV, which is PD in the US, but copyrighted in the UK. How could FL giver their global user base permission to redistribute it.

The copyright info page on the other hand clearly states that it is no logal advice.

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
Why Amazon sucks: Full background story of my legal dispute with the online giant

Posts 5
Under | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Mar 2 2016 9:22 PM

Jan Krohn:

MJ. Smith:

I understand now. But I doubt that they would be able to do it as copyright laws vary by country. I know of some specific oddities (from the American perspective) in the British public domain rules that affect the West Gallery singing community.

Exactly. The EULA is a legal binding contract probably under US law. Best example should be the KJV, which is PD in the US, but copyrighted in the UK. How could FL giver their global user base permission to redistribute it.

The copyright info page on the other hand clearly states that it is no logal advice.

Perhaps I haven't been clear. I'm not talking about Faithlife listing off Public Domain works in their EULA. I'm also not talking about Faithlife granting their users any special rights to any of the works they publish. All I'm talking about is making it clear in the EULA if there are or aren't any extra restrictions imposed by the EULA (i.e., Faithlife, through the EULA) regarding books they digitize which are in the Public Domain in some jurisdictions.

As Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) said above, the EULA says this:

Title

We remain the owner of all right, title and interest in the Software and Documentation. Ownership of the Content remains with Copyright holders.

Things you may not do

The Software, Content, and Documentation are protected by United States copyright laws and international treaties. You must treat the Software, Content, and Documentation as copyrighted material. You may not:

- copy the Documentation,

- copy the Software or Content except to make archival or backup copies as provided above,

- modify or adapt the Software or merge it into another program,

- reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to discover the source code of the Software,

- place the Software or Content onto a server so that it is accessible via a public network such as the Internet,

- sublicense, rent, lease or lend any portion of the Software, Content, or Documentation, or

- reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to "unlock" or circumvent the digital copyright protection of the Content.

This can be confusing for customers, because it makes it sound like even works in the Public Domain (in any particular country) must be treated like copyrighted works. (The intention behind the words restricts all, no Content excluded {Public Domain or not}.) Besides this, the EULA also says this:

General provisions

1. This written license agreement is the exclusive agreement between you and us concerning the Software, Content, and Documentation and supersedes any and all prior oral or written agreements, negotiations or other dealings between us concerning the Software.

I know this is just a technicality, but this could be construed to void the permission granted in the Copyright Permissions page, https://www.logos.com/copyright-permissions.

So, for these two reasons (to make things clear to the customer within the EULA itself, and to fix a possible technical mistake) I think it would be good if Faithlife looked into adding something to their EULA. For example (just so it's clear what I'm talking about), perhaps they could add something like the following, phrased in a better way:

Title

We remain the owner of all right, title and interest in the Software and Documentation. Ownership of the Content remains with Copyright holders. We withhold no rights over any Public Domain Content. Any Content already within the Public Domain in your jurisdiction will remain Public Domain to you as published by us. Specifically, Public Domain base text (plain text) will remain Public Domain after being digitized by us, including any changes or corrections which may come about during or after this process. However, you (not we) take full responsibility for determining whether the base text of any Content is or is not within the Public Domain in your jurisdiction.

Things you may not do

The Software, Content, and Documentation are protected by United States copyright laws and international treaties. You must treat the Software, Content, and Documentation as copyrighted material. You may not:

- copy the Documentation,

- copy the Software or Content except to make archival or backup copies as provided above,

- modify or adapt the Software or merge it into another program,

- reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to discover the source code of the Software,

- place the Software or Content onto a server so that it is accessible via a public network such as the Internet,

- sublicense, rent, lease or lend any portion of the Software, Content, or Documentation, or

- reverse engineer, disassemble, decompile or make any attempt to "unlock" or circumvent the digital copyright protection of the Content.

To avoid any doubt, the above restrictions do not apply to the base text of any Content within the Public Domain in your jurisdiction. We cannot and should not be depended on to determine whether any Content is Public Domain in your jurisdiction.

This isn't something I actually need myself, or even something I have a use for at the moment: it's just a suggestion.

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