PBB - Old Testament Pseudepigrapha Milestones

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Jim Darlack | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Mar 7 2016 1:41 PM

I'm trying to make a Personal Book Resource of English translations that will scroll with the OT Greek Pseudepigrapha with Morphology.

I'm having a hard time figuring out exactly how to structure my docx file with milestones.

Here are some example wiki links (using Ctrl+Alt+C) to 1 Enoch 1:1 in different resources related to the Old Testament Pseudepigrapha:

  • OT Greek Pseudepigrapha with Morphology:
    [[1 Enoch 1:1 >> logosres:greekpseud;ref=BibleGP.1_En_1:1]]
  • Charlesworth's Old Testament Pseudepigrapha (OTP):
    [[1 Enoch 1:1 >> logosres:otpseud01;ref=BibleOTP.1_En_1:1]]
  • Charles' Apocrypha and Pseudepigrapha of the Old Testament (APOT):
    [[Enoch 1:1 >> logosres:chaspot;ref=BibleCAP.Enoch1.1]]
  • Swete's OT in Greek:
    [[Enoch 1:1 >> logosres:otgrkswetetxt;ref=BibleLXX2.Enoch1.1]]

Note that there are FOUR different datatypes associated with 1 Enoch alone (BibleGP; BibleOTP; BibleCAP; BibleLXX2). This does not even take into account various fragmentary texts, where the datatype is related to things the Panarion of Epiphanius or some other early writing in which the fragment is embedded (e.g., [[Epiphanius, Panarion 64.70.6 >> logosres:greekpseud;ref=Epiphanius.Epiphanius,_Panarion_64.70.6]]).

So, the question is, which is the best to use? Is it best to just use the datatype given in the OT Greek Pseudepigrapha with Morphology?

Is there some over-arching datatype that will sync all OT Pseudepigrapha texts with this Personal Book?

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2016 1:44 PM

My understanding is that the different "Bible" datatypes are converted into each other. They are different because different Bibles can have slightly different versification. So I would just go with the datatype that matches what you are trying to deal with - namely BibleGP.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2016 1:50 PM

I ran into some problems when I was testing this a few months back. Unfortunately I don't recall precisely what so I'll need to remember to dig up my notes later today. However, Ken's advice for choosing a scheme is good advice.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2016 2:23 PM

Jim Darlack:

Note that there are FOUR different datatypes associated with 1 Enoch alone (BibleGP; BibleOTP; BibleCAP; BibleLXX2). This does not even take into account various fragmentary texts, where the datatype is related to things the Panarion of Epiphanius or some other early writing in which the fragment is embedded (e.g., [[Epiphanius, Panarion 64.70.6 >> logosres:greekpseud;ref=Epiphanius.Epiphanius,_Panarion_64.70.6]]).

So, the question is, which is the best to use?

As Ken said, bible datatypes are automatically converted - however, you need to call them correctly.

Your posting mixes up datatypes with resources. Logosres-links link to resources, it's logosref-links (from reference) that link to datatypes - there's a detailed description from Mark Barnes in the wiki how to come from one to the other. For bible datatypes, you simply use them as you would bible - so it's [[any text >> biblelxx2: 1 Enoch 1:1 ]] (with 1 Enoch 1:1 it will work for all four versifications you name, Enoch 1:1 alone will work for Lxx2 and CAP) and should open the highest prioritized bible-indexed resource that cointains this text, e.g. for me it opens the Swete LXX for all of those. 

EDIT: and after changing my prioritization, it opens the Lexham English Septuagint.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2016 2:31 PM

Jim Darlack:
Is it best to just use the datatype given in the OT Greek Pseudepigrapha with Morphology?

That's probably simplest.

Here's a long answer. The reason there are different BibleXXXX datatypes is because different datatypes support different verse ranges. You should choose a Bible datatype that supports all the verses you're going to include in your book. You can see how they differ here : https://wiki.logos.com/Bible_Verse_Maps#id:1_Enoch.

Jim Darlack:
Is there some over-arching datatype that will sync all OT Pseudepigrapha texts with this Personal Book?

No.

Pseudepigrapha referencing is a bit of a mess. (That's not completely Logos' fault, as I'm sure you know.) Passages that are canonical in some traditions will use the Bible datatype. Many other manuscripts have their own datatype. You'll have to determine the existing datatype for each document from an existing resource (use these instructions: https://wiki.logos.com/Finding_the_right_datatype_name_and_reference).

Posts 27
Jim Darlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2016 2:31 PM

NB.Mick:

Your posting mixes up datatypes with resources.

Hmm... the link examples above had the following:

  • logosres:greekpseud
  • logosres:otpseud01
  • logosres:chaspot
  • logosres:otgrkswetetxt

I thought that the text above was the "resource" and that the datatypes were:

  • ref=BibleGP
  • ref=BibleOTP
  • ref=BibleCAP
  • ref=BibleLXX2
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NB.Mick | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2016 2:44 PM

Jim Darlack:

Hmm... the link examples above had the following:

  • logosres:greekpseud
  • logosres:otpseud01
  • logosres:chaspot
  • logosres:otgrkswetetxt

I thought that the text above was the "resource"

Yes, that's true.

Jim Darlack:

and that the datatypes were:

  • ref=BibleGP
  • ref=BibleOTP
  • ref=BibleCAP
  • ref=BibleLXX2

no, these are parts of references to a certain position within the resource. A datatype is a resource-independent representation of a text, that Logos needs to set up (typically, because the text exists in multiple resources). Like "Calvin's Institutes Book 1 Par 1" or "John 3:16" which both refer to a text, but not to a specific resource / edition / translation ...  

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Jim Darlack | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Mar 7 2016 2:46 PM

Ah. Thanks for the clarification.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2016 1:40 AM

NB.Mick:
no, these are parts of references to a certain position within the resource. A datatype is a resource-independent representation of a text, that Logos needs to set up (typically, because the text exists in multiple resources). Like "Calvin's Institutes Book 1 Par 1" or "John 3:16" which both refer to a text, but not to a specific resource / edition / translation ...  

I hate to contradict NB.Mick, but that isn't correct. Mick is confusing a datatype with a reference. A reference is a resource-independent representation of a text.

In this example [[1 Enoch 1:1 >> logosres:greekpseud;ref=BibleGP.1_En_1:1]], you have two parts:

  • The resource: greekpseud
  • The reference: BibleGP.1_En_1:1

The reference is itself made up of two parts:

  • The datatype: BibleGP
  • The milestone: 1_En_1:1

So in this case the datatype is BibleGP, which is also known as Bible (GP). Datatypes are defined within the Logos application, and the datatype tells Logos how to handle the data associated with the datatype.

In the examples that NB.Mick gave, "Calvin's Institutes Book 1 Par 1" is a reference, which is made up of a datatype (Institutes of the Christian Religion) and a milestone (Institutes_I,_i). John 3:16 is also a reference, made up of a datatype (Bible) and a Milestone (John 3:16). Generally Logos will assume you're using a Bible milestone if you don't specify one.

Although in the example we've given, the reference is made up of a datatype and a milestone, that isn't always the case. For example a reference in the Factbook might look like this: bk.@BethanyBeyondTheJordan. In this case the datatype is bk (which I think stands for Biblical Knowledge). But @BethanyBeyondTheJordan isn't a milestone, but (I think) an entry in the Logos Controlled Vocabulary.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2016 1:51 AM

And the problem that we have with some pseudepigrapha is that it has two separate datatypes - early resources with a pseudepigraphic datatype and later resources with a Biblical datatype. They are not consistently mapped to each other.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Ken McGuire | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2016 6:06 AM

MJ. Smith:

And the problem that we have with some pseudepigrapha is that it has two separate datatypes - early resources with a pseudepigraphic datatype and later resources with a Biblical datatype. They are not consistently mapped to each other.

This is quite a concern. Compare the search results for <Bible 1_En> with <Pseudepigrapha 1 En>. The vast majority of my library is tagged for the latter.

The Gospel is not ... a "new law," on the contrary, ... a "new life." - William Julius Mann

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2016 12:34 PM

Ken McGuire:
This is quite a concern.

I know ... but last time I threw a fit about it no one else seemed to mind which is a common response when I speak of any expanded canon. Sad

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2016 1:34 PM

The Pseduepigrapha datatypes are wonderful compared to the DSS datatypes...

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Mar 8 2016 2:34 PM

Mark Barnes:

The Pseduepigrapha datatypes are wonderful compared to the DSS datatypes...

Crying

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 7
H. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 17 2019 9:23 AM

Jim and others,

Let me list below Old Testament - themed apocryphal writings or pseudigrapha that I've found that scholars consider to have Christian influence, interpolation or authorship. I am listing the scholars' rough estimates for dating first (They are all A.D.), followed by what I found for their use by early Christians. Perhaps you will find the list helpful or interesting.

  • Early 1st to late 5th c. Lives of the Prophets (Was widespread in mainstream Church)
    1st to 2nd c. Testament of Abraham (once widespread among Christians)
    1st to early 3rd c. Martyrdom and Ascension of Isaiah (Apostolic Constitutions consider it apocryphal, Numerous translations suggest widespread use; some scholars find it Docetic)
    1st c. - 300 3 Baruch (Origen could have cited it)
    1st c. - 300 4 Baruch (part of the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible)
    70-200 Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (Has Qumranite themes; St.Athanasius lists it among Apocrypha; 17th c. Armenian Bible apocrypha)
    100-200 Odes of Solomon (quoted by Lactantius, 6th c. Synopsis Sacrae Scripture says it's read to catechumens)
    2nd-3rd c. Testament of Jacob (Egyptian Jewish or Coptic; once widespread among Christians)
    100-400 Testament of Isaac (Egyptian Jewish or Coptic; once widespread among Christians)
    100-400 Testament of Adam (maybe gnostic or Encratitic. Differs from canonical story, making Cain's jealousy to be over his sister)
    100-400 Hellenistic Synagogal Prayers (from J. Charlesworth, "The Old Testament Pseudepigrapha"; From Books 7-8 of Apostolic Constitutions)
    100-500 Apocalypse of Sedrach (EJW synopsis dates it to 150 AD or later)
    100-900 Greek Apocalypse of Ezra[/color] (referred to in the Canon of Nicephorus c. 850 AD; Many writers date it as 150 or later)
  • 90-218 4 Esdras (Vulgate) / 2 Esdras (Protestant) / 3 Esdras (Slavic), including Chp 7 w/ NSRV verses 35-105 (Canonical in the Ethiopian Orthodox Bible, Apocryphal in the Vulgate, Russian Bible, and KJV)

Out of these, the only ones that I noticed as being part of Biblical apocryphas were 4 Baruch (in the Ethiopian Bible), Testaments of the Twelve Patriarchs (that a 17th c. Armenian Bible included as apocrypha), and the most commonly used: 4 Esdras (which is in purple and is known as 2 Esdras in Protestant Bibles).

Do you (or others on this forum) see any others in this list as being included in any Biblical apocryphas?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Jan 17 2019 2:32 PM

Welcome to the forums. I'm not sure what you mean by "Biblical apocryphas" so I'm not quite sure how to answer you. You seem to have a good grasp of their historical canonical status.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 7
H. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 19 2019 5:44 AM

Thanks for your welcome, MJ.

By Biblical apocryphas, I meant the books that are included in some Bibles and that are considered apocryphal. Let me give some examples:

The Vulgate included 4 Esdras and the Letter to the Laodecians (self-attributed to Paul but perhaps actually written by Marcion or another forger), but they were put in an Apocrypha section. IIRC, the Pope did this "lest they" perish entirely. ie. he believed that they weren't canonical, but he worried that if they weren't included at all, they could get lost over time.

The Russian Bibles include 4 Esdras in the list of OT books under the name "3 Esdras", but the Orthodox Church considers it to be apocryphal. For example, the famous Russian Bible commentor Lopuhin interpreted 4 Esdras as saying that the Messiah would live 400 years and then die naturally, and he said that this book reflected "the blindness of the Jews" for that reason, IIRC.

The KJV included 4 Esdras in a special section entitled Apocrypha that it placed with geographic maps and was located between the OT and the NT.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Jan 19 2019 10:28 AM

H. Smith:
By Biblical apocryphas, I meant the books that are included in some Bibles and that are considered apocryphal.

Ah, now I understand. I tend to use the term "appendix" for these. I'd have to say that there isn't really a comprehensive answer because in many cases where we have books bound together, we don't know for certain what canonical status was assigned to the books. I'm thinking specifically of Armenian and Georgian Bibles here. The Logos Canon Comparison tool may be of some help, but it is not exhaustive.

For example, the Asdvadzashunch is shown to have the following works which meet your description:

  • Joseph and Aseneth
  • Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs
  • The Martyrdom of Isaiah
  • The Epistles of Jesus Christ and Abgarus King of Edessa
  • 3 Corinthians
  • Acts of Paul and Thecla

The Assyrian Church of the East has:

  • 3 Maccabees
  • Psalms of Solomon

Beta Israel has:

  • The Conversation of Moses
  • Death of Aaron
  • Death of Moses
  • Precepts of Sabbath
  • Students
  • Book of Hours
  • Father Elija
  • Book of Angels
  • Book of Priest
  • Homily on Abraham and Sarah in Egypt
  • The Acts of Susanna
  • In the Beginning God Created

Samaritan Pentateuch

  • Joshua

Codex Alexandrinus

  • Epistle of Athanasius to Mercallinus on the Psalms
  • Hypothese of Eusebius of Pamphilius
  • Canons of the Daytime Psalms
  • Canons of the Nightly Psalms
  • Psalms of Solomon

Erznka Bible

  • St. Ephraem on Joseph
  • Letter of Eusebius
  • Repose of St. John
  • Testimonies of Paul
  • Colophon of Euthalius
  • Sea voyage of Paul
  • Epistle of Euthalius

Wycliffe's Bible

  • Laodicensis

Sixto-Clementine Vulgate

  • Prayer of Manasses
  • 3 Esdras
  • 4 Esdras

Baberdatsi, Lvov Bible

  • Letter of Eusebius
  • Epistle of Euthalius
  • Testimonies of Paul
  • Colophon of Euthalius
  • Repose of John
  • Poem of Ghazar

Slavonic Elizabeth Bible

  • 3 Esdras
  • 4 Maccabees

NRSV Ecumenical Edition

  • 4 Maccabees

and so on ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 7
H. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Jan 20 2019 9:39 PM

Good answer.

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H. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Jan 23 2019 10:43 AM

MJ. Smith:

Ah, now I understand. I tend to use the term "appendix" for these. I'd have to say that there isn't really a comprehensive answer because in many cases where we have books bound together, we don't know for certain what canonical status was assigned to the books. I'm thinking specifically of Armenian and Georgian Bibles here. The Logos Canon Comparison tool may be of some help, but it is not exhaustive.

Dear MJ,

Thanks again for your helpful answer. Listen, do you think that there is a good place online, or on this forum, to discuss the apocryphal Old Testament-themed books that we discussed, like 4 Esdras, the Ascension and Martyrdom of Isaiah, the Testament of the Twelve Patriarchs, and the Live of the Prophets?

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