יזה vs וזה (see Isaiah 52:15)

Page 1 of 1 (14 items)
This post has 13 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 240
Gregorio Billikopf | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Apr 12 2016 2:24 PM

יזה vs וזה

I have a question for the Hebrew scholars. By the way, it would be wonderful to have a workgroup for those who are interested in this type of conversation.

I know what both the Jewish and Christian scholars and Rabbis have to say about יזה.

I found a very interesting comment, to me, from one scholar who suggests that one of the roots of יזה is וזה.

I realize this is the only exegete in over fifty who suggests that this word may mean gather. This is of great interest to me but in my multiple Logos lexicons I cannot find the leap from יזה to the word gather. Whether or not you agree, if you can help me find the root or the leap to the word gather (as opposed to sprinkle, for instance), I would be most grateful. I have one more Lexicon my daughter is bringing to me from California as she comes to visit me, but perhaps one of you knows. See Isaiah 52:15.

See Schiller Szinessy, p. 13

Posts 911
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 12 2016 4:25 PM

The root looks like נזה sprinkle. I agree this doesn't fit the context very well but what does the root וזה mean and how is it different from יזה (initial י are originally initial ו)?

Posts 240
Gregorio Billikopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Apr 12 2016 5:00 PM

Thanks, David, for responding.

Neubauer & Driver (53rd chapter of Isaiah from the Jewish perspective) quote the Older Nizzahon: “If the prophet had meant to say that he would gather many nations to his religion, he should have written יקרב (will bring near or attract[1]), rather than יזה (will sprinkle or scatter).” So, after reviewing numerous commentaries, I ask myself, why does the Older Nizzahon even bring up the subject of gathering. I found only two individuals even mentioned the word. 

The second mention came from Dr. Schiller-Szinessy: “The fact is, יזה here comes from the root וזה to accumulate, to gather, to attract.” Really? I don't even find וזה to be a root. Is it?

As I said, I am extremely interested in the mention of the word gather by both of these authors. So much that I have spent several days trying to figure out how יזה could be, or how וזה could be expressed as gather.

Once again, I am not so interested in finding out what the correct English translation is. I read all of those opinions from both the Jewish and Christian perspective. I have a much harder question. Dr. Schiller-Szinessy was quite a Hebrew scholar and he wrote his book when he was 61, quite impressive in terms of years of accumulated study. What did he know that the lexicons are missing? I hope this clarifies my question. 

  



[1] Gesenius has “to draw near.” 

 

Posts 911
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 13 2016 2:52 AM

Regarding the Nizzahon Vetus, this is a polemic apologetic treatise from the 14th century. The author is referring to a Christian interpretation of this verse which could very well be allegorical (he gives no reference to his source). He objects to that interpretation and he certainly does NOT say that נז"ה can mean קב"ץ. You shouldn't look for philological data in an apologetic theological polemic against Christian interpretation of scriptue.

As for Schiller-Szinessy, what page are you quoting? I am looking at a scanned copy.

prima facie  נז"ה cannot denote "gather".

Posts 240
Gregorio Billikopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Apr 13 2016 5:01 AM

Indeed, David. The Older Nizzahon is offering an apologetic response, and it is clear to me. What is less clear is to why he used the idea of gathering. No one else had offered the concept of gathering as an option. Yes, thank, got that.

Dr. S. M. Schiller-Szinessy, Cambridge, 1882. Pages 12-13. That is, bottom of page 12 and very top of page 13. You have no idea how much I appreciate your taking a look at this.   

Posts 911
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 12:18 AM

Dr. S. M. Schiller-Szinessy assumes a new root וז"י which would be attested in Biblical Hebrew only at this occurrence. He relies on a cognate Arabic root وزي = וז"י. I haven't had the time to check if such a root exists in Arabic and in any case this is highly hypothetical (cannot be proved). Note that if the root is וז"י then the form יזה is in the Piel stem and not the Hif'il (should have been יוזה in the Hif'il) and the root is found only here in the Hebrew Bible.

Posts 2459
Lee | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 5:45 AM

David gives his customary impeccable response.

I have learned from both the questions and the answers in this thread.

Posts 240
Gregorio Billikopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 5:55 AM

Yes, Lee, I'm impressed. So David, I look forward to your response regarding وزي. Just because I cannot find וזה, also, it does not mean that it never existed. 

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 9:00 AM

Apologies since have a lot to learn about Hebrew and Arabic (right click can search without knowing alphabet); searching library found some results:

The Emphasized Bible has a footnote reference in Isaiah 52:15 "gather to himself" Fuerst’s Hebrew Lexicon, translated by Dr. Samuel Davidson (Williams & Norgate, 1871).

Rotherham, J. B. (2010). The Emphasized Bible: A Translation Designed to Set Forth the Exact Meaning, the Proper Terminology, and the Graphic Style of the Sacred Original. Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 240
Gregorio Billikopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 11:31 AM

Keep Smiling, this is not the first time you have helped me! Nothing short of brilliant. I am asking my daughter to bring my Emphasized Bible when she visits me two months from now, as I had to leave most of my collection of books behind, but am also ordering the electronic copy from Logos. Thanks. Logos does not sell Fuerst Lexicon, I gather. 

I look forward to additional comments from others, of course.

FINALLY, does Logos have a workgroup or forum for conversations such as this one? 

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 12:18 PM

Gregorio Billikopf:
FINALLY, does Logos have a workgroup or forum for conversations such as this one? 

Christian Discourse includes Bible Questions => http://christiandiscourse.com/category/bible-questions (same login as forum)

Faithlife.com has two Biblical Hebrew groups (with less activity than Christian Discourse)

Biblical Hebrew Studies => https://faithlife.com/biblical-hebrew-studies/about

Mobile Education LA151 "Learn to use Biblical Hebrew in Logos 6" => https://faithlife.com/la151/about

Gregorio Billikopf:
Logos does not sell Fuerst Lexicon, I gather. 

Unfortunately no.  Searching for Hebrew Lexicon found an expensive pre-pub gathering interest => Brill Hebrew Reference Collection that includes pre-pub for $ 101.99 (gathering interest) => A Concise Lexicon of Late Biblical Hebrew: Linguistic Innovations in the Writings of the Second Temple Period

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 911
David Knoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 12:56 PM

I have checked Lane, Dozy, Wehr-Cowan, Blau and nothing there for "gather" I did find this meaning in لسان العرب but that's in Arabic so you'll have to trust me it's there.

وزي

وزَى الشيءُ يَزِي: اجتَمع وتَقَبَّض. والوَزَى: من أَسماءِ الحمار
المِصَكِّ الشَّدِيد. ابن سيده: الوَزَى الحمار النَّشِيطُ الشديد.
وحِمارٌ وزًى: مِصكٌّ شديد. والوَزى: القًصِيرُ من الرجال الشديد المُلَزَّزُ
الخَلْقِ المقتدر؛ وقال الأَغلب العجلي:
قَدْ أَبْصَرَتْ سَجاحِ مِنْ بَعْدِ العَمَى،
تاحَ لها بَعْدَكَ خِنْزابٌ وَزَى
مُلَوَّحٌ في العينِ مَجْلُوزُ القَرَا
والمُسْتَوْزِي: المُنْتَصِب المُرْتَفِع.واسْتَوْزَى الشيءُ: انْتَصَب.
يقال: ما لي أَراكَ مُسْتَوزِياً أَي مُنتصباً؛ قال تَمِيم بن مُقْبِل
يصف فرساً له:
ذَعَرْتُ به العَيْرَ مُسْتَوْزِياً،
شَكِيرُ جَحافِلِه قَدْ كَتِنْ
وأَوْزَى ظَهْرَه إِلى الحائط: أَسْنَدَه؛ وهو معنى قول الهذلي:
لَعَمْرُ أَبي عَمْروٍ لَقَدْ ساقَه المَنَى
إِلى جَدَثٍ يُوزَى لَه بِالأَهاضِبِ
وعَيْرٌ مُسْتَوزٍ: نافِرٌ؛ وأَنشد بيت تميم بن مقبل:
ذَعرت به العَير مستوزياً
وفي النوادر: استوزى في الجبل واستولى أَي أَسْنَد فيه.
ويقال: أَوْزَيْتُ ظهري إِلى الشيءِ أَسْنَدْته. ويقال: أَوْزَيْته
أَشْخَصْتُه ونَصَبْتُه؛ وأَنشد بيت الهذلي:
إِلى جدث يوزى له بالأَهاضب
يقال: وَزَى فُلاناً الأَمْرُ أَي غاظَه، ووَزاه الحَسَدُ؛ قال يَزِيد
بن الحكم:
إِذا سافَ مِنْ أَعْيارِ صَيْفٍ مَصامةً،
وزَاهُ نَشِيجٌ، عِنْدَها، وشَهِيقُ
التهذيب: والوَزَى الطيور؛ قال أَبو منصور: كأَنها جمع وَزٍّ وهو طَيْرُ
الماءِ. وفي حديث ابن عباس، رضي الله عنهما: نهى رسول الله،صلى الله
عليه وسلم، عن بَيْع النَّخْل حتى يُؤْكَلَ منه وحتى يُوزَنَ.
قال أَبو البَخْتَرِيّ: فَوازَيْنا العَدُوَّ وصافَفْناهُم؛ المُوازاةُ:
المُقابلة والمُواجَهةُ، قال: والأَصل فيه الهمزة، يقال آزَيْته إِذا
حاذَيْتَه؛ قال الجوهري: ولا تقل وازَيْته، وغيره أَجازه على تخفيف الهمزة
وقلبها، قال: وهذا إِنما يصح إِذا انفتحت وانضم ما قبلها نحو جُؤَن
وسُؤَال، فيصح في المُوازاة ولا يصح في وازينا إِلاَّ أَن يكون قبلها ضمة من
كلمة أُخرى كقراءَة أَبي عمرو: السُّفهاءُ ولا إِنَّهم. ووَزَأَ اللحمَ
وَزْءاً: أَيْبَسَه، ذكره في الهمزة، والله أَعلم.

Posts 240
Gregorio Billikopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 1:38 PM

Thanks for the forum suggestions, Keep Smiling.

Gregorio

Posts 240
Gregorio Billikopf | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 14 2016 1:39 PM

Thanks, David. 

Page 1 of 1 (14 items) | RSS