Bible Browser. I am saddened by Logos not including this in Features Set.

Page 1 of 1 (18 items)
This post has 17 Replies | 2 Followers

Posts 496
Sarel Slabbert | Forum Activity | Posted: Tue, Aug 23 2016 10:36 PM

One of the most exciting features, apparently, is the new Bible Browser. I am saddened to see that Logos only include this in Logos Now. Despite the steep amount for buying "all" features of Logos separately, this one is not included. I get the increasing feeling that Logos is trying to force all of us into Logos Now by.

I have no problem with Logos Now users getting more features as they are released later on. I have no problem with them having first access to any new features and datasets, but to release this feature simultaneously with Logos 7 and not include it in the Features Set is hard for those who pay are willing to pay a huge amount up front just to have these features.

Posts 26105
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 23 2016 11:07 PM

The Bible Browser works off a server not on your desktop. I suspect this is why it is a Logos Now feature not a desktop feature. The reason it works off a server is the way the data is stored which requires large amounts of storage.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 496
Sarel Slabbert | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 23 2016 11:43 PM

MJ. Smith:

The Bible Browser works off a server not on your desktop. I suspect this is why it is a Logos Now feature not a desktop feature. The reason it works off a server is the way the data is stored which requires large amounts of storage.

You are probably right, but it still does not make it impossible to add to the features list. The only requirement would be that your PC be connected to the internet. I am just sad as it appears to be a great feature and I am still in the "buy to own" camp and not in the subscription camp. I would have loved to have this feature.

Posts 21701
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 12:32 AM

Sarel Slabbert:
The only requirement would be that your PC be connected to the internet.

From a user perspective yes - but from a provider perspective there are ongoing costs in maintaining data on servers etc.

In general, many of the "need to access data on servers" features are in the membership-only group

Posts 928
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 2:53 AM

I agree that there are ongoing costs associated with anything running off Faithlife's servers, but surely that is not the only variable. The example that comes most readily to mind is the atlas feature, which is and has been available to non-LN members. Perhaps the Bible Browser will be available for purchase by the time Logos 8 comes out?

Posts 13312
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 3:19 AM

Matthew:
Perhaps the Bible Browser will be available for purchase by the time Logos 8 comes out?

I doubt that (unless they find a way of running in locally). If the Atlas was turned off in five years time, there will be people still running Logos 6 who will say, "I paid for this, you must keep it going!". It really seems like Faithlife are now trying to avoid that scenario by making sure it's not possible to purchase tools that require ongoing maintenance.

Posts 496
Sarel Slabbert | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 3:27 AM

Thanks for the replies.

Still it is sad that the only way to get access to these tools is by subscribing to everything and not just the extra tools that need maintenance. I have all the Features and Addons, and now I have to subscribed to them all again just to get this one feature I think would be nice to have. As I said: it is sad from my perspective.

Posts 928
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 5:13 AM

Mark, if you are correct (and I suspect you are),then it seems like a middle ground would be to make the online-only features available via a la carte subscription. There are probably people who don't want to pay $99 a year just to access one desired feature but might be willing to do $5-10. As online only features multiply, Faithlife could (if it made financial sense to do so), offer tiers where a person could pay $X for yearly access to Y features, keeping the option that $99 a year gives access to everything. Personally, I don't see that happening, as they already get grief about the available options being too complex, but they might be able to generate more income that way through the people who would never e energy consider paying $99 a year but might do a much smaller amount to use a favorite feature or two.

Posts 3646
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 5:43 AM

I don't understand why the concordance tool can be available but the Bible browser, which is rather similar, cannot. 

Posts 21701
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 6:00 AM

Francis:

I don't understand why the concordance tool can be available but the Bible browser, which is rather similar, cannot. 

From a user perspective they work in a similar way but the Concordance Tool works on your desktop (it creates local caches of resources) while the Bible Browser works off remote servers.

I don't know the specifics behind the design choices which caused this.

Posts 21701
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 6:01 AM

Matthew:
Personally, I don't see that happening, as they already get grief about the available options being too complex

I think this is one of the reasons why it won't happen.

As well as more complex sales tiering it would add support costs as care would need to be taken to understand exactly what features an individual was licensed for.

Posts 3646
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 6:03 AM

Graham Criddle:
I don't know the specifics behind the design choices which caused this.

That's precisely what I am asking: the official line is that the browser is too data intensive to be available offline, but since the concordance does something very similar and does not seem to operate on a smaller magnitude, I don't get why one is possible and not the other. 

I guess it reminds me a bit of the mobile app functionalities in which a similar line is held even though similar functions are performed very well offline by competing products. 

Posts 10033
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 6:40 AM

I think Mark's comment was earlier mentioned by Bob, though guised in 'continuing development' whatever that is. And I could be wrong .... remember the dancing at the LN intro?

That said, I've recommended a subscription/server combo, maybe even with a real cloud library (vs the who-knows one they have now).

Waxing philosophically poetic, to avoid forum guidelines, the 20th century for Christianity has been a draw-up-the-bridges and fill-the-moat period, while sending a few brave souls out to save the non-english-speaking-lost. 

And the scholarship world pumps out ever more boring, unsupported speculation, tied down with fragments of hard data.

Logos and just its current databases offers a fresh, new day, of analysis, visualizations, connectivity, etc that better displays the amazement in the first century.  But smart development is needed. $$$.

Ok, so my comments are speculative and potentially boring.


Posts 13312
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 6:53 AM

Matthew:
Mark, if you are correct (and I suspect you are),then it seems like a middle ground would be to make the online-only features available via a la carte subscription.

Yes, there are clearly different ways this could be done. But, for the time being, it does seem that Faithlife are settled on the Amazon Prime/Netflix one-size-fits-all model, rather than the multi-tier Adobe Creative Cloud/Office365 model.

It's possible that once the product has matured, they'll offer multiple tiers. To be fair, until recently, there wasn't that much content in Logos Now, so mutli-tier probably wasn't much of an option. But if we get to the stage where many more people are members, maybe that will allow Faithlife to increase the options. All this is, of course, pure speculation on my part.

Posts 26105
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 12:23 PM

Francis:
I don't understand why the concordance tool can be available but the Bible browser, which is rather similar, cannot. 

Given that each Bible has to be added separately and that they speak of large storage requirements, I have assumed that they are using some version of multidimensional or vector storage. The concordance can be a simple SQLLite database. The difference is they have very different access requirements ... although both need to grow. The Concordance need phrase access (n-grams) and the Bible Browser needs to continue to add facets e.g. semantic role.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 791
LogosEmployee
Eli Evans (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 1:25 PM

Francis:
I don't understand why the concordance tool can be available but the Bible browser, which is rather similar, cannot. 

If we had the Concordance to do over, we absolutely would make it an internet feature.

The trade-off is you have to wait 5 or so minutes for a concordance to generate, and we only cache the last five concordances on your drive -- so if you like the tool and use it often, your latest concordance may bump your first concordance off the list and then it will have to regenerate again. Otherwise, we'd eat up all of your hard drive space very quickly.

This is the main reason why we haven't implemented the ability to run a concordance across a collection (say, all the volumes in a series) of resources. If we pre-generated all the concordances on a server, it would be much less likely to fail if we joined them on the server and piped the results back to you. If, instead, we have to regenerate the mass concordance on your disk, we'll quickly run into disk drive and RAM limits of your machine (and the number of minutes, possibly hours, that you're willing to wait).

So, imagine we built the Bible Browser like Concordance, except that the Bible Browser takes an hour to generate data for one Bible instead of five minutes.

Posts 1804
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 24 2016 7:01 PM

Sarel Slabbert:

One of the most exciting features, apparently, is the new Bible Browser. I am saddened to see that Logos only include this in Logos Now. Despite the steep amount for buying "all" features of Logos separately, this one is not included. I get the increasing feeling that Logos is trying to force all of us into Logos Now by.

I have no problem with Logos Now users getting more features as they are released later on. I have no problem with them having first access to any new features and datasets, but to release this feature simultaneously with Logos 7 and not include it in the Features Set is hard for those who pay are willing to pay a huge amount up front just to have these features.

Eli's exactly right on the reasons behind it. We can't justify issuing permanent licenses to web services with expensive ongoing development and maintenance costs.

I'll just chime in that I was also saddened not to be able to include it in the Starter or Full Feature Set products. My vision for it was precisely for the individual who wants to tap into some advanced datasets without learning complicated search syntax.

However, Logos Now may actually serve this audience well. It's an even more affordable option than buying a feature set. So I hope that its inclusion in Now will mean it reaches its intended audience.

Posts 3646
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Aug 25 2016 12:27 AM

Thanks for all the explanations. It is not altogether intelligible to me because I am not familiar with these processes, but at least it gives a notion of what is going on and it will be clearer to those who have greater familiarity with this than I. Useful.

Eli Evans:
If we had the Concordance to do over, we absolutely would make it an internet feature.

This would be a great loss. Although probably the vast majority of users have easy access to the Internet, there remain many, even in Western countries who live in rural areas where connectivity is limited. In addition to them, there are the users in countries that have considerably less than we do to start with and it would be a pity that they would have even less if more and more features were made Internet dependent. Lastly, though not least, there are also missionaries in remote areas who are in similar situations and should not be deprived, if at all possible, of the benefits of great Bible study tools.

Page 1 of 1 (18 items) | RSS