Over $300 for L7 Features? Really?

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 12:10 PM

Batman:
The one thing I have not determined, is whether or not the Full Feature would be available offline. Maybe the entire Now thing is not even available offline.

The majority of features included in the Full Feature set are available offline - unsurprisingly those which require access to Faithlife servers - such as the Bible Browser - are not.

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 12:19 PM

Graham Criddle:

Batman:
The one thing I have not determined, is whether or not the Full Feature would be available offline. Maybe the entire Now thing is not even available offline.

The majority of features included in the Full Feature set are available offline - unsurprisingly those which require access to Faithlife servers - such as the Bible Browser - are not.

Logos wiki for Logos 7 => Online Only has list of features that require online access to Faithlife servers, which are a few more than Logos 6 Online Only

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 177
Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 1:07 PM

Dwayne Justice:

Andrew,

       I'm telling you, man. You gotta stop stealing my thunder, bro! Quit thinking like me and posting the same stuff as me before I get a chance to post it. I have a gun. OK, not really, but anyway....Beer

Haha! I try to have good ideas (like talking about imbued maturity from Jesus' miracle at Cana- something I've never seen anyone write about). Sometimes they stick, sometimes they don't. 

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Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 1:11 PM

Dwayne Justice:

I will definitely miss my free Office 365 after I lose my student status. However, as far as office is concerned, I'm happy with just the desktop version. I could go back to using Office 2010 and still be perfectly content. The only thing I really even use office for is to type my college papers. So, once I'm done with my Masters degree and am no longer a student, I really won't have a use for office period, especially 365. Yep! Once I'm done with this degree I don't think I will pay for 365. On the other hand, I will probably keep LN for life!

Dwayne, since you have a Mac, I have to ask: have you tried Pages, Keynote, and Numbers? They're free, and have always provided everything I needed in terms of Documents, Presentations, and Spreadsheets. I'd be happy to help with your thoughts on them. I just never could justify paying for Microsoft Office when the free apps could accomplish everything I needed them to do. If it's an issue of format, Pages can export documents as a .doc or .docx and, of course, can also read them.

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Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 1:16 PM

Thanks. I'll be giving this a more productive and fulfilling search to determine what benefits I have, on and off line. 
Thanks again

Graham Criddle:

Batman:
The one thing I have not determined, is whether or not the Full Feature would be available offline. Maybe the entire Now thing is not even available offline.

The majority of features included in the Full Feature set are available offline - unsurprisingly those which require access to Faithlife servers - such as the Bible Browser - are not.

Posts 363
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 1:17 PM

Excellent. That WILL be beneficial. Thank you

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :):

Graham Criddle:

Batman:
The one thing I have not determined, is whether or not the Full Feature would be available offline. Maybe the entire Now thing is not even available offline.

The majority of features included in the Full Feature set are available offline - unsurprisingly those which require access to Faithlife servers - such as the Bible Browser - are not.

Logos wiki for Logos 7 => Online Only has list of features that require online access to Faithlife servers, which are a few more than Logos 6 Online Only

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 8:04 PM

Andrew Zoll:

Dwayne Justice:

I will definitely miss my free Office 365 after I lose my student status. However, as far as office is concerned, I'm happy with just the desktop version. I could go back to using Office 2010 and still be perfectly content. The only thing I really even use office for is to type my college papers. So, once I'm done with my Masters degree and am no longer a student, I really won't have a use for office period, especially 365. Yep! Once I'm done with this degree I don't think I will pay for 365. On the other hand, I will probably keep LN for life!

Dwayne, since you have a Mac, I have to ask: have you tried Pages, Keynote, and Numbers? They're free, and have always provided everything I needed in terms of Documents, Presentations, and Spreadsheets. I'd be happy to help with your thoughts on them. I just never could justify paying for Microsoft Office when the free apps could accomplish everything I needed them to do. If it's an issue of format, Pages can export documents as a .doc or .docx and, of course, can also read them.

Never use 'em. I actually got the office suite for Mac when I purchased my iMac in 2013 or 2014 (can't remember). I just find Word easier to format my papers to the strict Turabian style that Wayland makes us students use. Even in word it takes more time to format the paper than it does to write the 20 pages!

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Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 8:20 PM

Batman:

I give Bob a very hard time-- NOT to make his life miserable, but, because this is a Bible based company, it does need to be held to the best possible standards. I have been impressed with how he comes out and tries to explain some issues. I'm not thrilled with his "we are a business and we are here to make money" response, however. Much of everything else I have never had an issue with. I don't even take issue with making a profit. A workman is worth their hire, after all. It's how it comes off. I try very hard not to make it sound as if I am judging him and esp. his motivations. It does not always look like that, I know. There is a super extreme fine line on his part and on mine. When he addresses the financial issue, it seems as if he ignores the fact that Logos is working with the Bible...

If we are using the Bible check these out:

1 Tim 5:17-18

Gal 6:6

1 Cor 9:9-14 & 18-19 (notice in this passage Paul talks about even though he should get paid, he chooses not to. This is the "Justice"[that's me] Paraphrase of course)

Luke 10:7

1 Thes 5:12-13

Rom 4:4

If you are an OT guy:

Deut 25:4

Numb 18:8-32

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Tony Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Aug 28 2016 9:35 PM

Well, since I found the Logos 7 Starter Feature Set option (even though it is pretty well hidden), I decided to fork over $45 to help pay for Logos development and to keep the servers running even though it doesn't provide a great deal of additional functionality.   

Director of Zoeproject 

www.zoeproject.com

Posts 149
Bob Schaefer | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 1:56 PM

Bob Pritchett:

...even owners seem to want core engine upgrades, support for new OS releases, etc. -- forever. (And at already 25 years old -- a pretty old software company! -- with many customers who've been with us 10+ years, it's not hard to see even basic maintenance / support being a significant 'forever' cost.)

I think you're saying some of this with a smile, Bob - I hope so. Because I'd be really nervous if I got the feeling Faithlife considered this basic maintenance a bother.

For all its disadvantages, a well-cared-for paper library can last many lifetimes. Your users have trusted that our investment in a digital library will be a durable one, too. Faithlife needs to be absolutely unwavering in its commitment to keeping our resources accessible as far into the future as humans can manage. Purchasing a Logos resource instead of a paper one is, in part, an expression of confidence in the integrity of Faithlife and its continued viability.

That's a key driver of all the angst that haunts these forums - the massive amounts of money we've invested in intangible assets. We're much more heavily invested than users of other software. We're generally not in high-paying jobs, and are making our purchases with our personal funds (i.e, "the office" doesn't buy our expensive software for us). We're taking a chance on digital books because of the promise they show, but Faithlife always needs to be aware of the risk your users are taking when we trust you to do right by us. Please don't even in jest give us reason to think you might not always do that.

Posts 363
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 8:53 PM

Hey, Dwayne

I did state that I did believe he was worth his hire.  It's not salary I take issue with. It's not even a substantial salary that would bother me. For example, I disagree with the late J. Vernon McGee, who seemed to take issue with a pastor who drove a fancy car, lived in an awesome house (my words, not his), and etc. I believe if GOD blesses a pastor with a great salary, as Paul says, he should be "content", and again if God has not blessed a pastor with a great salary, or even no salary, they should still be content. So, salary is not an issue. 
It's the pastor who lives in the "lap of luxury" while the congregation lives in poverty, yes, there is a problem. As I do with a congregation who lives in luxury, but the pastor lives in poverty. 

Translate this to Logos. How much profit any individual on Faithlife staff is a) none of my business and b) I dont really care. What I do care about is gouging, milking people, and unnecessary upgrades, which results in unnecessary charges. Ie, upgrades that are solely to charge the customer, again, unnecessary money. 
That is the bad thing about this entire discussion. I don't know Bob's heart, and it really bothers me when I do come on here and make the harsh statements I do. As you have read, Im sure, I feel I do have just cause. What I am pleased over, is that Logos did do me (and I believe others) right with the "recent upgrade" discounts. Much more than I imagined. (Which is why I am happy. It's the first time I feel I have been treated in a fair and maybe even above and beyond fair manner in 7-8 years). I will admit I missed it, but I blame ME, no one else. I was confusing Logos Now with Logos Cloud, so I didnt get access to all the resources I would--- but again that I place on ME! So, next year I will debate whether this is what I want, or, if I will purchase the Full Features. I'm still thinking I'll go Now as opposed to FF, because while I would "own"  vs. renting. The few extras may make it worth going Now, but overall, it looks cost wise if it's an alternating year upgrade, as it has been recently, it works out about the same. 
So while I really do hate these discussions, I do feel I do have to speak up. Is there any solution? Honestly, I do not know. I'm seeing exactly how some of the features work, so I can see the man hours (PC person hours?) it probably takes to produce such a project. So, what I hope is, while it is expensive to own or rent Logos, that Logos is not out to gouge and milk us. It can appear like that. Its what I saw; but did see a bit of difference. Instead of just another upgrade, I saw what appears to be an honest attempt to NOT take advantage of us. That is important. Very important. I'm very glad too. Now to help others see it, when they have the same issues. 

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Aug 29 2016 11:14 PM

Batman:
So, what I hope is, while it is expensive to own or rent Logos, that Logos is not out to gouge and milk us.

Profit = Revenue - Expenses

For a business to remain profitable, revenue must consistently be greater than expenses.

Thankful for Bob Pritchett's reply on 11 Nov 2015 => https://community.logos.com/forums/p/118786/779521.aspx#779521 about payment plan changes that included:

Bob Pritchett:

Yes, like many businesses paid over time we can take our receivables to a bank and borrow against them, but you can't borrow against the whole balance (more like 60-75%), and now you're also paying interest (thankfully low right now), etc.

 

This is why credit cards exist, and why many products sold with time payments have another company manage the payments. It's because time payments is its own business... and while a producer like Faithlife can 'do a little bit', if it becomes too big a part of their business, they have to either reign it in or push it off on another company whose financial model -- and backing -- is designed for it. 

 

I'm sure you're thinking that we can 'make it up in volume' or 'once it starts going payments from last year will cover costs for this year', and that's all true, to a point -- except that if your profits aren't outrageous (ours aren't) and your growth isn't a rocket ship (ours isn't) and you aren't rolling around in excess cash (we aren't) and don't have a venture capital fund backing you (we don't) and you can't borrow 100% of your receivables (we can't) and you are deferring revenue but not expenses, you can hit a math wall.

Faithlife corporation profits are not outrageous (seem to remember reading under 2 % overall), refer to 5 Jan 2016 thread => Personnel changes at Faithlife (layoffs were needed for corporation to remain profitable).

Recommend reading vyrso eBook => Fire Someone Today by Bob Pritchett that includes profitable insight:

A profitable business can stay in business while an unprofitable business disappears: e.g. Borders (after nearly 40 years of being in business)

Batman:
I don't know Bob's heart, and it really bothers me when I do come on here and make the harsh statements I do.

Observation: harsh words hurt the hearer(s) as well as the speaker.

Thankful for many friendly forum discussions about Logos Bible Software; have learned a lot plus have a lot to learn. Thankful for many Faithlife employees, including CEO, interacting with forum discussions Big Smile

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 930
Bill Moore | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 8:17 AM

Good words, KS4J. I agree.

Pastor, Cornerstone Baptist Church, Clinton, SC

Posts 363
Batman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Aug 30 2016 9:32 AM

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus;

NOT an easy thing to do. None of anything you posted do I disagree with. Very few of us get the overall financial cost to operate an endeavor such as Logos. I've never disputed that. 
My dispute is more along the lines of what the primary goal is, and making it secondary, What comes to mind is, "What does it profit a man to gain the whole world, but lose his own soul?" I'm NOT saying he did. NOT even coming to suggesting it, either. 

OF COURSE a company, ANY company, MUST be profitable, and remain so, to stay in business and keep the doors open and project running. MAYBE a few serious haters (I've never hated Logos to this degree) would prefer seeing Logos close down. Bob is a smart business man. No doubt about that. Maybe through trial and error. Maybe just his God-given talent. Maybe both. 
I DO want Logos to succeed. Always have. Even when I get deeply aggravated. And angry. 

What grates me the wrong way, I suppose, is that we all know it takes a lot of money to continuously work on upgrades. While the intent may be good, the fact of the matter is, it also makes the company look bad. Concession here: I don't know, but, I suspect, a slow down on upgrades would allow the projects to be worked on; just not as rigorously, and still be profitable. Maybe I'm wrong. I hate how HP puts out what seems like more types of ink than they put out printers. They are profitable; but, would they be more profitable with much less ink (and printer) choices? 

Anyway, there's a whole lot of behind the scenes costs we will NEVER be able to see, that perhaps even Bob never sees, that maybe only God totally sees. I've always maintained I hope Bob is in this for the right reasons. I will never know for sure. It's none of my business. I just pray it is. And while this sounds a bit naive, because it does not work this way in reality-- in totality, but it can; I think that when we do keep our primary focus the primary focus, God will take care of the rest. This however, does not exclude our responsibility to make sure the secondary goal is met, too. 
This is where I fear for myself, attempting to present my arguments in such a manner so as to not cross the line of judging. I often times fear I do. My prayer is, I had not. 

GREAT insights, thanks for digging this 411 up. Hopefully, it helps us keep things in perspective.

Posts 170
Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 31 2016 8:05 AM

Andrew Zoll:

My pleasure! I live to teach! Feel free to message me on Faithlife if you want to chat more. Haha! Nice edits!

Hey, Andrew. I do have a question for you, but the FaithLife profile I get to by clicking on  your name is a group page or something. I don't see anywhere to leave you a message or to add you as a friend or anything like that. However, I don't really know what I am doing on FaithLife because I have only been on there like 3 times. I assumed it was something similar to Facebook but I guess not. Anyway, since I can't figure out how to leave you a message on FaithLife (Faithbook?) I will leave it here even though it has nothing to do with what has been going on in this particular forum. I am having an issue with Logos thinking it is a day behind from my computer's date. See the below image:

Do you know what I need to do to fix this? Thank you, sir. If you want to get this off of this forum that was made for a different topic, you can always find me on FaithLife since I can' seem to find the correct profile for you. Thank you ,sir.

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Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 31 2016 8:06 AM

sorry, I meant ahead, Logos thinks it is a day ahead.

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LogosEmployee

Dwayne Justice:

I am having an issue with Logos thinking it is a day behind from my computer's date. See the below image:

Do you know what I need to do to fix this?

I replied in your other thread.

Posts 177
Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 31 2016 12:23 PM

Dwayne Justice:

Andrew Zoll:

My pleasure! I live to teach! Feel free to message me on Faithlife if you want to chat more. Haha! Nice edits!

Hey, Andrew. I do have a question for you, but the FaithLife profile I get to by clicking on  your name is a group page or something. I don't see anywhere to leave you a message or to add you as a friend or anything like that. However, I don't really know what I am doing on FaithLife because I have only been on there like 3 times. I assumed it was something similar to Facebook but I guess not. Anyway, since I can't figure out how to leave you a message on FaithLife (Faithbook?) I will leave it here even though it has nothing to do with what has been going on in this particular forum. I am having an issue with Logos thinking it is a day behind from my computer's date. See the below image:

Do you know what I need to do to fix this? Thank you, sir. If you want to get this off of this forum that was made for a different topic, you can always find me on FaithLife since I can' seem to find the correct profile for you. Thank you ,sir.

Hey Dwayne,

So that we don't commandeer this thread, I'll email you on your email you have on your faithlife page. 

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Dwayne Justice | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 31 2016 7:08 PM

Thanks!

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Posts 97
Carey G. Pearson | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Aug 31 2016 7:53 PM

curious...did your Bronze upgrade INCLUDE the L7 Full Features...or were the L7 Full Features a separate purchase from the Bronze upgrade?

if we meet and you forget me,

you have lost nothing.

But if you meet Jesus and forget Him,

you have lost everything.

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