I am customer of ten years. I remember the old days when i was treated like a King. Shortcomings from my side were taken care as if it were from Logos. Queries were answered empathetically from a customer centric perspective. Customer Service was super responsive and empathetic.
Bob would regularly come to the forums to address concerns of the customers
I never had to worry about 'fine print' with Logos
Look at the forums now. Lot of customers including myself were not clear from the product pages that told that a purchase included the feature set, when actually it did not, and purchased the wrong/incomplete product.
Instead of making it explicit and clear in the product pages what customers will get/own, Faithlife resorts to giving explainations of how a 'Package' is defined etc from "THEIR" perspective without as much acknowledging the customer's persepctive or difficulties.
Added to this is the fact that the MVPs play/replace the role of Customer Services to a large extend. They may not be professionally trained in customer interaction or in handling diversity. Not all of Faithlife customers can get the latest gadgets or be at home with new models like subscription. I wish some of the MVP replies in the froums were more empathetic.
I thought of writing this because, if Faithlife still believes in the customer centric values and behaviours that brought it so much success, it might be good to go back to the roots and also have MVPs more sensitivized to them while representing Faithlife in the forums!
Peter Lever:I never had to worry about 'fine print' with Logos
For me it has been 20 years and personally I still think the statement is true.
Let's be honest the road with Logos as it was and Faithlife now has always had bumps. I took out the Logos Now subscription on a trust basis and whilst I no longer technically own part of the package I am happy with the decision.
I agree that the wording is confusing as we transition, I read it three times, saw a post here that I thought I understood then still asked a question in that post.
Based on history, I expect Bob to show up and apologise for the errors made as the company takes the next step and that the bumps will get smoothed.
Then we can all get back to what Logos does best, Bible Study.
Peter, let me say this in defense of the MVPs: we have pushed back on Faithlife again and again over issues like clarity, their involvement in the forums, pricing, software development, and many other things. That isn't transparent on the forums. We often have the same feelings you have, and at times have made a difference in things before they even happen. Not always.
Those of us who are MVPs are volunteers and that's all. We are here to help as fellow users and those who are pretty invested in Logos Bible Software. We aren't professionals in customer service.
So if we sometimes rub someone's feathers wrong, don't take it as a failure of Faithlife. They trust us, but probably sometimes grimace at what we do. But even without the star we'd be involved here and trying to help, and therefore might ruffle feathers.
I'd encourage you to take an issue like this directly to Bob. Bob@logos.com will get you there.
Pastor, North Park Baptist Church
Bridgeport, CT USA
Peter,
I too am a long time user of over 20 years, and I too have see many changes in the company as it grew. Logos has always done the right thing (my point of view of course!) by me. I think some of the problem is people who have taken advantage of "loose" terminology, and generous software licenses to try and "Cheat" the system. And I am sure not all payment plans get paid, So with 1 million customers, I think the good old days back when Bob wrote the code are now in our rearview mirror. I still trust Bob to always do the right thin.,
Publishers are now pushing for a higher percentage of a books list price for royalties, some as high a 70% of list price according to Bob. That in turn is putting pressure on profit. At some point Logos will hit a tipping point where most of its customers will have most of the books they need, and can get the free update to the software engine for life, with no income for Logos. Policies have to change with the times, but logos is still head and shoulders above the rest in support for their customers! And thank you to the MVP's who help out so many.
Best,
Mark Smith:Peter, let me say this in defense of the MVPs
I remain incredibly thankful to the sacrifical service of the MVPs, and appreciate and acknowledge all the good they bring!
Thankful that you took the time to reply on this too!
Peter Lever: Mark Smith:Peter, let me say this in defense of the MVPs I remain incredibly thankful to the sacrifical service of the MVPs, and appreciate and acknowledge all the good they bring! Thankful that you took the time to reply on this too!
Peter, just to be clear--we don't technically represent Faithlife. They might have made a nice star under the names, but as Mark said, I am sure they grimace at some of our styles. I do, too! But we are not connected with them. We are just active users, purchasers, and have shown our desire to help out others, when we can. In general, I get confused with the changes and implications, too. But I have never known them NOT to address concerns--even though at times it may take a while. Unlike many other companies whose products I use and get frustrated with and hardly attempt to get support, because it's not really there . . .
I like Apples. Especially Honeycrisp.
Peter Lever: Added to this is the fact that the MVPs play/replace the role of Customer Services to a large extend. They may not be professionally trained in customer interaction or in handling diversity. Not all of Faithlife customers can get the latest gadgets or be at home with new models like subscription. I wish some of the MVP replies in the froums were more empathetic. I thought of writing this because, if Faithlife still believes in the customer centric values and behaviours that brought it so much success, it might be good to go back to the roots and also have MVPs more sensitivized to them while representing Faithlife in the forums!
In addition to what Mark said, let me emphasize that we are MVP's because we are customers. What I mean by that is that we are users of the software like yourself.
I am sorry that communication is/has been unclear regarding the packages & feature sets. I'm sorry too that you and probably others feel that the MVP's could use a bet of sensitivity training... in fact I'd wager that I need a bunch of it. As you'll note in my signature, sarcasm is my native language. Many people don't know how to take some of the things I say, and I'm only one MVP. There are several other personalities in the group as well.
I'm rambling so let me encourage you to contact Bob directly at the above email address with your concerns. I know he reads those emails and responds to many many of them. Just be patient, right now I'll bet he is nowhere near inbox zero.
Truth Is Still Truth Even if You Don't Believe It
Check the Wiki
Warning: Sarcasm is my love language. I may inadvertently express my love to you.
Peter Lever:Look at the forums now. Lot of customers including myself were not clear from the product pages that told that a purchase included the feature set, when actually it did not, and purchased the wrong/incomplete product.
Like most MVPs, I completely agree with you that the product pages were confusing. I've said so publicly, and called on Faithlife to fix the problem. They apologised yesterday in response to those complaints, and today the page is much improved.
I apologise if we can come across as not being empathetic. With a customer base as diverse as this one, it's hard to know (especially online) whether forum users want empathy, answers, or suggested workarounds. But I think it's worth you knowing that we MVPs try and hold Faithlife to account on your behalf, as well as supporting Faithlife in these forums. So over the last few days there have been many messages from MVPs to Faithlife reps — some public, some private — encouraging staff where they have done well, but also pointing out these errors and problems, and urging them to be fixed. If you think we show a lack of empathy to customers, you should see how little empathy we sometimes show to staff ;-).
Peter Lever: I am customer of ten years. I remember the old days when i was treated like a King. Shortcomings from my side were taken care as if it were from Logos. Queries were answered empathetically from a customer centric perspective. Customer Service was super responsive and empathetic. Bob would regularly come to the forums to address concerns of the customers I never had to worry about 'fine print' with Logos Look at the forums now. Lot of customers including myself were not clear from the product pages that told that a purchase included the feature set, when actually it did not, and purchased the wrong/incomplete product. Instead of making it explicit and clear in the product pages what customers will get/own, Faithlife resorts to giving explainations of how a 'Package' is defined etc from "THEIR" perspective without as much acknowledging the customer's persepctive or difficulties. Added to this is the fact that the MVPs play/replace the role of Customer Services to a large extend. They may not be professionally trained in customer interaction or in handling diversity. Not all of Faithlife customers can get the latest gadgets or be at home with new models like subscription. I wish some of the MVP replies in the froums were more empathetic. I thought of writing this because, if Faithlife still believes in the customer centric values and behaviours that brought it so much success, it might be good to go back to the roots and also have MVPs more sensitivized to them while representing Faithlife in the forums!
Peter, thanks for caring and taking the time to share. We really value this kind of feedback. We're committed to providing exceptional customer service, so thank you for letting us know when we fall short.
The MVPs do a tremendous service to the Logos community here in the forums. They're often in a difficult spot of trying to give us the benefit of the doubt and come to our defense, but they're also users who agree with much of the feedback. We're very appreciate to them for their sacrificial service of the community in what is often a very difficult position. Thanks for sharing your concerns.
It's easy for all of us during busy times like launches to be too quick to jump to conclusions, not be gracious in giving the benefit of the doubt and asking for improvements, and be charitable in dealing with people who are often rightfully upset. We're working hard to be responsive and address your feedback and concerns (often with too little sleep!). We're very grateful we have such a passion and engaged community of users who provide us with direct feedback. Thank you. We'll keep working to do better.
I'm available by phone (360-685-2314 or 360-389-2220) or email (phil@faithlife.com) if you'd like to talk privately.
Peter, I am a 20-year user of Logos Bible Software myself, and I think you make some very valid points.
Several years ago, I began to notice that advertised "discounts" were frequently discounted off a "regular price” that was totally fictional, and not off the price the Logos regularly charged. That was the day that I realized that something had changed, and I had better start checking Logos’ fine print. However, a number of us complained, and Logos doesn’t do that much anymore.
I do think Bob and the Logos people are good Christian businessmen. I think a lot of what we are noticing is almost inevitable as a company grows. It can no longer operate on the same personal level that a newer smaller company can provide. The same thing often happens as churches grow.
Still, I do believe if something is wrong, and pointed out to Logos (like the deceptive advertising), they do their best to fix it and do the right thing. You cannot ask for much more than that. And you can’t expect the same degree of personal interaction in a company that has grown as large as Faithlife.
As for the MVP’s, I appreciate their service and hard work. But really folks, if you cannot be courteous, and polite, you should not be doing it. Most are certainly courteous and polite, but there times when some are not. I find it interesting that Peter did not even mention MVP’s until the 6th and next to last paragraph of his post, but from reading the replies one would think that was the primary issue of his post.
"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley
Michael Childs: I find it interesting that Peter did not even mention MVP’s until the 6th and next to last paragraph of his post, but from reading the replies one would think that was the primary issue of his post.
Reading hundreds of posts per day and responding to as many as you are reasonably able takes a time investment that sometimes leads to brief replies. This is particularly true right now when more answers than normal are needed. Unfortunately sometimes brevity looks like rudeness.
As another long time customer of Faithlife/Logos, allow me to mention two strengths and a major weakness with the company:
Strengths:
Customer Service: I still believe that Faithlife/Logos offers excellent customer service overall. From sales to support, etc., members of the Faithlife/Logos team have always provided me with top notch customer service, both before and after I became a major "financial contributor" to the Faithlife/Logos customer family.
Use of MVP's on forums: The MVP's I interact with have always been top notch. I recognize them for who they are: Logos customers who volunteer time and effort to make other customer's experiences on the forums pleasant. Usually they're faster and sometimes better at answering questions than going straight to Faithlife/Logos support, and I feel like I'm working with a 24/7 support team with them. Since they don't officially work for Faithlife/Logos, if I'm not sure if one of their answers are 100% accurate or if I feel they've misunderstood my question, I'll clarify my question or get a secondary answer directly from Faithlife/Logos. Such is rare though and the MVP team, for volunteers, do a top notch job.
Now for the major weakness, which I can sum up in one word...communication.
Faithlife/Logos clearly has a major weakness when it comes to communication and keeping it clear and understandable. There's a disconnect between the minds of the Faithlife team how what they're thinking comes out in communication with customers. This communication weakness hasn't improved but has only worsened with every major release of Logos and with other new Logos services, etc. Faithlife/Logos customers feel like we're playing pictionary or charades with the Faithlife/Logos team, only they're really awful at drawing and gestures. The only way this is going to improve is Bob is going to have to become weary enough of the fallout and flooded inbox and forums over each major communication issue event to the point where he brings in the right communicators who can take what's on the minds of the Faithlife/Logos team and clearly articulate it to customers in a painfully clear and simple manner. Until that day arrives, customers will continue to endure the issues with communication and Faithlife/Logos will have to deal with the fallout.
I'm not trying to sound harsh or cruel to Faithlife/Logos in the above comments, only I'm being (brutally) honest with my assessment. Faithlife/Logos has excellent customer service from a great team of people, but it gets hidden in a fog of cloudy communication. Major fundamental changes with communication would allow the rest of Faithlife/Logos strengths to shine through (as they should).
Nathan Parker
Visit my blog at http://focusingonthemarkministries.com
Peter, I've been thinking the same thing. Well, not the 'king' thing anyway.
But I also wonder. For me L4 seemed the turning point, regarding corporate-centric vs customer-centric. At the time I tagged one of the Pritchetts, just to see if something changed at the top. They laughed.
I wonder, however, because Logos4 was also a turning point for me. Else I'd still be bobbling along with my original language package. Instead, I feel truly gifted by Mr Bob. I assume true for many.
Logos Membership (forgot its name) ... seems another turning point. Creating customer classes. Yes, pretty normal. Just not my cup of tea. Bitter taste. I got my feature package and finished up.
The amazing lack of communication is part of the Logosian managerial genetic palette, though I'd bet they moved the timeline up again.
Bobby Terhune: Peter, I too am a long time user of over 20 years, and I too have see many changes in the company as it grew. Logos has always done the right thing (my point of view of course!) by me. I think some of the problem is people who have taken advantage of "loose" terminology, and generous software licenses to try and "Cheat" the system. And I am sure not all payment plans get paid, So with 1 million customers, I think the good old days back when Bob wrote the code are now in our rearview mirror. I still trust Bob to always do the right thin., Publishers are now pushing for a higher percentage of a books list price for royalties, some as high a 70% of list price according to Bob. That in turn is putting pressure on profit. At some point Logos will hit a tipping point where most of its customers will have most of the books they need, and can get the free update to the software engine for life, with no income for Logos. Policies have to change with the times, but logos is still head and shoulders above the rest in support for their customers! And thank you to the MVP's who help out so many. Best,
Ditto!
Edited to add: I LOVE LOVE LOVE the MVP's. While some are a little more "warm and fuzzy" than others, I've never had any of them be rude. Instead, I am regularly shocked at how ready they are to help ME with MY problem. Honestly, I personally think the MVP'S are THE greatest strength of this company's customer service. I come here FIRST for help. Guess how many times I've had to contact FL via phone for CS? Twice in 7 years! I LOVE the MVP'S! (Oh wait, I said that already!) :)
Cynthia
Romans 8:28-38
Nathan Parker: This communication weakness hasn't improved but has only worsened with every major release of Logos and with other new Logos services, etc.
I disagree. I think that they have improved dramatically within the last few years.
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SineNomine: Nathan Parker: This communication weakness hasn't improved but has only worsened with every major release of Logos and with other new Logos services, etc. I disagree. I think that they have improved dramatically within the last few years.
My perception is that generally communication (including engagement here) has improved significantly, but there are still significant issues with marketing over-promising and under delivering (e.g. the L7 "Your package includes" problem, the Encyclopaedia Britannica debacle, etc.). The problems are definitely less frequent, but the fall-out seems somehow to be greater.
I agree, SineNomine. I've seen definite improvements over the past 12 months. To be honest, the issues with the L7 rollout were fewer than I expected -- and Faithlife was quick to deal with them. The one thing that hasn't changed, IMO, is the quickness with which (some) users jump on Faithlife when a problem occurs. Based on their hyperbole, you'd think the world was coming to an end. ;)
Significantly ... dramatically? I agree with Nathan here. Marketing seems to purposely hide why anyone would want the choices. Then hide the choices.
I admit, sounds over-stated. Remember the Catholic guy that thought he was buying Catholic. The nice gentleman in Japan, surprised to hear of the feature set page? The grindingly obvious questions people keep asking (where is Marketing?). And the slow excruciating drip of 'New Feature' threads?
But then again, not my company. So goes.
I can not believe the lack of grace on these boards.
Faithlife is a company that is creating a wonderful resource that makes our jobs so much easier and yet every time they make any move at all this board and twitter light up with people acting as if they have been stabbed in the back.
Nobody is forcing us to upgrade to 7. Nobody is forcing us to subscribe to Now.
Logos 6 will work the same when you open it today as it did last week.
Just like the company that made the car you drive. They are going to come out with a newer better model. They are going to charge more for the new model. You get to decide if you want the new model.
or they will go out of business and then the warranty on your car will be void.
I thank God for Faithlife and I pray that they will be successful and profitable for decades to come.
Respectfully,
To the extent that part of this thread is concerned with MVPs and their style, I'll add my vote to those praising them, their knowledge, and their courtesy. There are only a handful of my favourite MVPs who haven't (yet) joined this thread; I trust they will soon, so they can hear the general consensus that appreciates their contribution. :-)