Bob: From King To Customer - The end of Faithlife as we knew it?

I am customer of ten years. I remember the old days when i was treated like a King. Shortcomings from my side were taken care as if it were from Logos. Queries were answered empathetically from a customer centric perspective. Customer Service was super responsive and empathetic.

Bob would regularly come to the forums to address concerns of the customers

I never had to worry about 'fine print' with Logos

Look at the forums now. Lot of customers including myself were not clear from the product pages that told that a purchase included the feature set, when actually it did not, and purchased the wrong/incomplete product.

Instead of making it explicit and clear in the product pages what customers will get/own, Faithlife resorts to giving explainations of how a 'Package' is defined etc from "THEIR" perspective without as much acknowledging the customer's persepctive or difficulties.

Added to this is the fact that the MVPs play/replace the role of Customer Services to a large extend. They may not be professionally trained in customer interaction or in handling diversity. Not all of Faithlife customers can get the latest gadgets or be at home with new models like subscription. I wish some of the MVP replies in the froums were more empathetic.

I thought of writing this because, if Faithlife still believes in the customer centric values and behaviours that brought it so much success, it might be good to go back to the roots and also have MVPs more sensitivized to them while representing Faithlife in the forums!

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Graham Owen

I never had to worry about 'fine print' with Logos

For me it has been 20 years and personally I still think the statement is true.

Let's be honest the road with Logos as it was and Faithlife now has always had bumps. I took out the Logos Now subscription on a trust basis and whilst I no longer technically own part of the package I am happy with the decision.

I agree that the wording is confusing as we transition, I read it three times, saw a post here that I thought I understood then still asked a question in that post.

Based on history, I expect Bob to show up and apologise for the errors made as the company takes the next step and that the bumps will get smoothed.

Then we can all get back to what Logos does best, Bible Study.

Mark Smith

Peter, let me say this in defense of the MVPs: we have pushed back on Faithlife again and again over issues like clarity, their involvement in the forums, pricing, software development, and many other things. That isn't transparent on the forums. We often have the same feelings you have, and at times have made a difference in things before they even happen. Not always.

Those of us who are MVPs are volunteers and that's all. We are here to help as fellow users and those who are pretty invested in Logos Bible Software. We aren't professionals in customer service.

So if we sometimes rub someone's feathers wrong, don't take it as a failure of Faithlife. They trust us, but probably sometimes grimace at what we do. But even without the star we'd be involved here and trying to help, and therefore might ruffle feathers.

I'd encourage you to take an issue like this directly to Bob. Bob@logos.com will get you there.

Bobby Terhune

Peter,

I too am a long time user of over 20 years, and I too have see many changes in the company as it grew. Logos has always done the right thing (my point of view of course!) by me. I think some of the problem is people who have taken advantage of "loose" terminology, and generous software licenses to try and "Cheat" the system. And I am sure not all payment plans get paid, So with 1 million customers, I think the good old days back when Bob wrote the code are now in our rearview mirror. I still trust Bob to always do the right thin.,

Publishers are now pushing for a higher percentage of a books list price for royalties, some as high a 70% of list price according to Bob. That in turn is putting pressure on profit. At some point Logos will hit a tipping point where most of its customers will have most of the books they need, and can get the free update to the software engine for life, with no income for Logos. Policies have to change with the times, but logos is still head and shoulders above the rest in support for their customers! And thank you to the MVP's who help out so many.

Best,

Benjamin Varghese

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/841957#Comment_841957

Peter, let me say this in defense of the MVPs

I remain incredibly thankful to the sacrifical service of the MVPs, and appreciate and acknowledge all the good they bring!

Thankful that you took the time to reply on this too!

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/841971#Comment_841971

Peter, let me say this in defense of the MVPs

I remain incredibly thankful to the sacrifical service of the MVPs, and appreciate and acknowledge all the good they bring!

Thankful that you took the time to reply on this too!

Peter, just to be clear--we don't technically represent Faithlife. They might have made a nice star under the names, but as Mark said, I am sure they grimace at some of our styles. I do, too! [:O] But we are not connected with them. We are just active users, purchasers, and have shown our desire to help out others, when we can. In general, I get confused with the changes and implications, too. But I have never known them NOT to address concerns--even though at times it may take a while. Unlike many other companies whose products I use and get frustrated with and hardly attempt to get support, because it's not really there . . .

TCBlack

Added to this is the fact that the MVPs play/replace the role of Customer Services to a large extend. They may not be professionally trained in customer interaction or in handling diversity. Not all of Faithlife customers can get the latest gadgets or be at home with new models like subscription. I wish some of the MVP replies in the froums were more empathetic.

I thought of writing this because, if Faithlife still believes in the customer centric values and behaviours that brought it so much success, it might be good to go back to the roots and also have MVPs more sensitivized to them while representing Faithlife in the forums!

In addition to what Mark said, let me emphasize that we are MVP's because we are customers. What I mean by that is that we are users of the software like yourself.

I am sorry that communication is/has been unclear regarding the packages & feature sets. I'm sorry too that you and probably others feel that the MVP's could use a bet of sensitivity training... in fact I'd wager that I need a bunch of it. As you'll note in my signature, sarcasm is my native language. Many people don't know how to take some of the things I say, and I'm only one MVP. There are several other personalities in the group as well.

I'm rambling so let me encourage you to contact Bob directly at the above email address with your concerns. I know he reads those emails and responds to many many of them. Just be patient, right now I'll bet he is nowhere near inbox zero.

Mark Barnes

Look at the forums now. Lot of customers including myself were not clear from the product pages that told that a purchase included the feature set, when actually it did not, and purchased the wrong/incomplete product.

Like most MVPs, I completely agree with you that the product pages were confusing. I've said so publicly, and called on Faithlife to fix the problem. They apologised yesterday in response to those complaints, and today the page is much improved.

I apologise if we can come across as not being empathetic. With a customer base as diverse as this one, it's hard to know (especially online) whether forum users want empathy, answers, or suggested workarounds. But I think it's worth you knowing that we MVPs try and hold Faithlife to account on your behalf, as well as supporting Faithlife in these forums. So over the last few days there have been many messages from MVPs to Faithlife reps — some public, some private — encouraging staff where they have done well, but also pointing out these errors and problems, and urging them to be fixed. If you think we show a lack of empathy to customers, you should see how little empathy we sometimes show to staff ;-).

Phil Gons (Logos)

I am customer of ten years. I remember the old days when i was treated like a King. Shortcomings from my side were taken care as if it were from Logos. Queries were answered empathetically from a customer centric perspective. Customer Service was super responsive and empathetic.

Bob would regularly come to the forums to address concerns of the customers

I never had to worry about 'fine print' with Logos

Look at the forums now. Lot of customers including myself were not clear from the product pages that told that a purchase included the feature set, when actually it did not, and purchased the wrong/incomplete product.

Instead of making it explicit and clear in the product pages what customers will get/own, Faithlife resorts to giving explainations of how a 'Package' is defined etc from "THEIR" perspective without as much acknowledging the customer's persepctive or difficulties.

Added to this is the fact that the MVPs play/replace the role of Customer Services to a large extend. They may not be professionally trained in customer interaction or in handling diversity. Not all of Faithlife customers can get the latest gadgets or be at home with new models like subscription. I wish some of the MVP replies in the froums were more empathetic.

I thought of writing this because, if Faithlife still believes in the customer centric values and behaviours that brought it so much success, it might be good to go back to the roots and also have MVPs more sensitivized to them while representing Faithlife in the forums!

Peter, thanks for caring and taking the time to share. We really value this kind of feedback. We're committed to providing exceptional customer service, so thank you for letting us know when we fall short.

The MVPs do a tremendous service to the Logos community here in the forums. They're often in a difficult spot of trying to give us the benefit of the doubt and come to our defense, but they're also users who agree with much of the feedback. We're very appreciate to them for their sacrificial service of the community in what is often a very difficult position. Thanks for sharing your concerns.

It's easy for all of us during busy times like launches to be too quick to jump to conclusions, not be gracious in giving the benefit of the doubt and asking for improvements, and be charitable in dealing with people who are often rightfully upset. We're working hard to be responsive and address your feedback and concerns (often with too little sleep!). We're very grateful we have such a passion and engaged community of users who provide us with direct feedback. Thank you. We'll keep working to do better.

I'm available by phone (360-685-2314 or 360-389-2220) or email (phil@faithlife.com) if you'd like to talk privately.

Mike Childs

I am customer of ten years. I remember the old days when i was treated like a King. Shortcomings from my side were taken care as if it were from Logos. Queries were answered empathetically from a customer centric perspective. Customer Service was super responsive and empathetic.

Bob would regularly come to the forums to address concerns of the customers

I never had to worry about 'fine print' with Logos

Look at the forums now. Lot of customers including myself were not clear from the product pages that told that a purchase included the feature set, when actually it did not, and purchased the wrong/incomplete product.

Instead of making it explicit and clear in the product pages what customers will get/own, Faithlife resorts to giving explainations of how a 'Package' is defined etc from "THEIR" perspective without as much acknowledging the customer's persepctive or difficulties.

Added to this is the fact that the MVPs play/replace the role of Customer Services to a large extend. They may not be professionally trained in customer interaction or in handling diversity. Not all of Faithlife customers can get the latest gadgets or be at home with new models like subscription. I wish some of the MVP replies in the froums were more empathetic.

I thought of writing this because, if Faithlife still believes in the customer centric values and behaviours that brought it so much success, it might be good to go back to the roots and also have MVPs more sensitivized to them while representing Faithlife in the forums!

Peter, I am a 20-year user of Logos Bible Software myself, and I think you make some very valid points.

Several years ago, I began to notice that advertised "discounts" were frequently discounted off a "regular price” that was totally fictional, and not off the price the Logos regularly charged. That was the day that I realized that something had changed, and I had better start checking Logos’ fine print. However, a number of us complained, and Logos doesn’t do that much anymore.

I do think Bob and the Logos people are good Christian businessmen. I think a lot of what we are noticing is almost inevitable as a company grows. It can no longer operate on the same personal level that a newer smaller company can provide. The same thing often happens as churches grow.

Still, I do believe if something is wrong, and pointed out to Logos (like the deceptive advertising), they do their best to fix it and do the right thing. You cannot ask for much more than that. And you can’t expect the same degree of personal interaction in a company that has grown as large as Faithlife.

As for the MVP’s, I appreciate their service and hard work. But really folks, if you cannot be courteous, and polite, you should not be doing it. Most are certainly courteous and polite, but there times when some are not. I find it interesting that Peter did not even mention MVP’s until the 6^th and next to last paragraph of his post, but from reading the replies one would think that was the primary issue of his post.

TCBlack

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842059#Comment_842059

I find it interesting that Peter did not even mention MVP’s until the 6^th and next to last paragraph of his post, but from reading the replies one would think that was the primary issue of his post.

More likely (in my case) that it was the only point we could address authoritatively.

Reading hundreds of posts per day and responding to as many as you are reasonably able takes a time investment that sometimes leads to brief replies. This is particularly true right now when more answers than normal are needed. Unfortunately sometimes brevity looks like rudeness.

Nathan Parker

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842066#Comment_842066

As another long time customer of Faithlife/Logos, allow me to mention two strengths and a major weakness with the company:

Strengths:

Customer Service: I still believe that Faithlife/Logos offers excellent customer service overall. From sales to support, etc., members of the Faithlife/Logos team have always provided me with top notch customer service, both before and after I became a major "financial contributor" to the Faithlife/Logos customer family.

Use of MVP's on forums: The MVP's I interact with have always been top notch. I recognize them for who they are: Logos customers who volunteer time and effort to make other customer's experiences on the forums pleasant. Usually they're faster and sometimes better at answering questions than going straight to Faithlife/Logos support, and I feel like I'm working with a 24/7 support team with them. Since they don't officially work for Faithlife/Logos, if I'm not sure if one of their answers are 100% accurate or if I feel they've misunderstood my question, I'll clarify my question or get a secondary answer directly from Faithlife/Logos. Such is rare though and the MVP team, for volunteers, do a top notch job.

Now for the major weakness, which I can sum up in one word...communication.

Faithlife/Logos clearly has a major weakness when it comes to communication and keeping it clear and understandable. There's a disconnect between the minds of the Faithlife team how what they're thinking comes out in communication with customers. This communication weakness hasn't improved but has only worsened with every major release of Logos and with other new Logos services, etc. Faithlife/Logos customers feel like we're playing pictionary or charades with the Faithlife/Logos team, only they're really awful at drawing and gestures. The only way this is going to improve is Bob is going to have to become weary enough of the fallout and flooded inbox and forums over each major communication issue event to the point where he brings in the right communicators who can take what's on the minds of the Faithlife/Logos team and clearly articulate it to customers in a painfully clear and simple manner. Until that day arrives, customers will continue to endure the issues with communication and Faithlife/Logos will have to deal with the fallout.

I'm not trying to sound harsh or cruel to Faithlife/Logos in the above comments, only I'm being (brutally) honest with my assessment. Faithlife/Logos has excellent customer service from a great team of people, but it gets hidden in a fog of cloudy communication. Major fundamental changes with communication would allow the rest of Faithlife/Logos strengths to shine through (as they should).

DMB

Peter, I've been thinking the same thing. Well, not the 'king' thing anyway.

But I also wonder. For me L4 seemed the turning point, regarding corporate-centric vs customer-centric. At the time I tagged one of the Pritchetts, just to see if something changed at the top. They laughed.

I wonder, however, because Logos4 was also a turning point for me. Else I'd still be bobbling along with my original language package. Instead, I feel truly gifted by Mr Bob. I assume true for many.

Logos Membership (forgot its name) ... seems another turning point. Creating customer classes. Yes, pretty normal. Just not my cup of tea. Bitter taste. I got my feature package and finished up.

The amazing lack of communication is part of the Logosian managerial genetic palette, though I'd bet they moved the timeline up again.

Cynthia in Florida

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/841961#Comment_841961

Peter,

I too am a long time user of over 20 years, and I too have see many changes in the company as it grew. Logos has always done the right thing (my point of view of course!) by me. I think some of the problem is people who have taken advantage of "loose" terminology, and generous software licenses to try and "Cheat" the system. And I am sure not all payment plans get paid, So with 1 million customers, I think the good old days back when Bob wrote the code are now in our rearview mirror. I still trust Bob to always do the right thin.,

Publishers are now pushing for a higher percentage of a books list price for royalties, some as high a 70% of list price according to Bob. That in turn is putting pressure on profit. At some point Logos will hit a tipping point where most of its customers will have most of the books they need, and can get the free update to the software engine for life, with no income for Logos. Policies have to change with the times, but logos is still head and shoulders above the rest in support for their customers! And thank you to the MVP's who help out so many.

Best,

Ditto!

Edited to add: I LOVE LOVE LOVE the MVP's. While some are a little more "warm and fuzzy" than others, I've never had any of them be rude. Instead, I am regularly shocked at how ready they are to help ME with MY problem. Honestly, I personally think the MVP'S are THE greatest strength of this company's customer service. I come here FIRST for help. Guess how many times I've had to contact FL via phone for CS? Twice in 7 years! I LOVE the MVP'S! (Oh wait, I said that already!)

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842092#Comment_842092

This communication weakness hasn't improved but has only worsened with every major release of Logos and with other new Logos services, etc.

I disagree. I think that they have improved dramatically within the last few years.

Mark Barnes

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842120#Comment_842120

This communication weakness hasn't improved but has only worsened with every major release of Logos and with other new Logos services, etc.

I disagree. I think that they have improved dramatically within the last few years.

My perception is that generally communication (including engagement here) has improved significantly, but there are still significant issues with marketing over-promising and under delivering (e.g. the L7 "Your package includes" problem, the Encyclopaedia Britannica debacle, etc.). The problems are definitely less frequent, but the fall-out seems somehow to be greater.

Paul Strickert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842120#Comment_842120

I agree, SineNomine. I've seen definite improvements over the past 12 months. To be honest, the issues with the L7 rollout were fewer than I expected -- and Faithlife was quick to deal with them. The one thing that hasn't changed, IMO, is the quickness with which (some) users jump on Faithlife when a problem occurs. Based on their hyperbole, you'd think the world was coming to an end.

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842129#Comment_842129

Significantly ... dramatically? I agree with Nathan here. Marketing seems to purposely hide why anyone would want the choices. Then hide the choices.

I admit, sounds over-stated. Remember the Catholic guy that thought he was buying Catholic. The nice gentleman in Japan, surprised to hear of the feature set page? The grindingly obvious questions people keep asking (where is Marketing?). And the slow excruciating drip of 'New Feature' threads?

But then again, not my company. So goes.

Shannon Martin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842140#Comment_842140

I can not believe the lack of grace on these boards.

Faithlife is a company that is creating a wonderful resource that makes our jobs so much easier and yet every time they make any move at all this board and twitter light up with people acting as if they have been stabbed in the back.

Nobody is forcing us to upgrade to 7. Nobody is forcing us to subscribe to Now.

Logos 6 will work the same when you open it today as it did last week.

Just like the company that made the car you drive. They are going to come out with a newer better model. They are going to charge more for the new model. You get to decide if you want the new model.

or they will go out of business and then the warranty on your car will be void.

I thank God for Faithlife and I pray that they will be successful and profitable for decades to come.

Respectfully,

Andrew Malone

To the extent that part of this thread is concerned with MVPs and their style, I'll add my vote to those praising them, their knowledge, and their courtesy. There are only a handful of my favourite MVPs who haven't (yet) joined this thread; I trust they will soon, so they can hear the general consensus that appreciates their contribution. :-)

Stephen Terlizzi

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842136#Comment_842136

The one thing that hasn't changed, IMO, is the quickness with which (some) users jump on Faithlife when a problem occurs. Based on their hyperbole, you'd think the world was coming to an end.

I agree that the execution of Logos 7 announcement could have been done better. The company was slow in delivering the detailed information to make informed purchasing decisions (particularly around the website problems and the details of each individual packages). I was caught expecting stuff in my Verbum Platinum that eventually was not included. However, such is life.

I actually am surprised at the patience that the Logos user community has for the company. I point to the Encyclopedia Britannica problems in 2015 and the subsequent missed commitments for delivery of the revised product. I think the users on the forum have been incredibly patient on this matter...of course, that may change if Faithlife doesn't make the August delivery commitment. IMHO.

Agape,

Steve

EastTN

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842200#Comment_842200

It's probably inevitable that as a company grows dramatically in size, it will become somewhat clumsier and less flexible. That doesn't reflect a deliberate slight of long-term customers or an erosion of business ethics. It's just harder to change the course of a big ship than a small one. On the other hand, large companies have the resources to do things that small ones can't.

It's a problem I can sympathize with personally. I've grown significantly over the last few years, and become somewhat clumsier and less flexible myself.

[:P]

Eric Ross

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842194#Comment_842194

As a long time employee in the software business, I have observed this common occurance where a small company such as Faithlife suddenly does a major push into new business models and markets. At some point, there are so many products and so many types of customers that focus begins to become a bit frayed. At this point successful execution of product releases and support becomes difficult. This was very apparent with the release of Logos 7 and the web site not being fully ready with the comparator. Also key communications that are mentioned above are another symptom. As a result, rather than an obvious point of decisions for customers, it becomes a confusing and frustrating environment. On the other hand, I can also see that despite these "process" issues, there are many people pulling all-nighters and other heroic acts to keep the customer happy. Bottom line, the recent year has been stressful for the customer and has all the appearance of being stressful to the rank and file in the company.

This is a good time to focus on simplifying the offerings which will make them easier to deliver and easier for the customer to understand. For example, do you need a Logos, Verbum, Vyrso AND a Noet app? Why not have a single app with a switch or a "layout".

The customer now has to look at a matrix of product, base package, feature set, subscription levels. Unfortunately, these are not independent of each other and the interaction between them becomes extremely complicated both for FL to present and for the customer to understand.

The company I work for had a similar problem where we were confusing the customer and we did a rapid cut back on "flavors" and collapsed things down into easier to understand options aligned by customer type rather than feature sets.. This greatly improved sales and increased customer satisfaction scores.

mike

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842249#Comment_842249

The problem with Logos lately is that Logos trying to act like the big fish companies but failed to execute plan and deliver the full promise. Everything they said often times are the future tense.. "oh its coming"...

Sorry if too harsh, but this is what I feel ever since they announced LN, though I still like Logos a lot........ Complicated relationship indeed.

And oh, I still feel that L7 is just like another day of LN cycle-release.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842200#Comment_842200

I point to the Encyclopedia Britannica problems ... if Faithlife doesn't make the August delivery commitment.

There was never a commitment to August; this was always clearly communicated as a tentative projection: https://community.logos.com/forums/p/117689/822993.aspx#822993

DMB

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842274#Comment_842274

Now Bradley. Us Logosians are smarter than your average bear. But not by much.

Ben promised a reverse promise ... he promised to notify if the not-promise date was not met.

Now, I fully expect Ben to meet his promise ... and miss the August target. Just guessing, given the L7 pressure.

Bradley Grainger (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842275#Comment_842275

Whoa... it’s like you can see the future! https://community.logos.com/forums/p/117689/842276.aspx#842276 [:)]

Stephen Terlizzi

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842283#Comment_842283

Whoa... it’s like you can see the future! https://community.logos.com/forums/p/117689/842276.aspx#842276

We'll see, if with the Logos 7 announcement, Faithlife has thrown us enough red meat to satiate the masses!

Agape,

Steve

Sarel Slabbert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/841956#Comment_841956

I started with Logos in 1996 when it still came on 3.5" stiffies. I think it was Logos version 1.6. I have been one of the most loyal customers Logos could ask for. I still think it offers the best ratio between ease of use and scholarly possibilities.

But, and this is not an attack on FL, the last two years or so I have become more and more aware that the explosive growth of Logos is making it more difficult for me to stay current. I am not a supporter of the "subscription based" option. I prefer to buy. Once you subscribe to Logos for more than 2 years you will never be able to stop your subscription without losing access to all those tools you learned to use. Also, you will be so far "behind" with the Feature Sets that it would be extremely expensive to get these tools without a subscription. I think some Logos Now subscribers would be shocked to realize just how many tools and functionality is dependent on their monthly subscription. Especially those who did not buy the Datasets of Logos 6.

If FL would change their model and allow us to "keep" the "old" features after each 2 or 3 year subscription cycle, and then introduce the "new" features for subscription I would jump on the subscription bandwagon immediately. Then, if I end my subscription for whatever reason, I still keep the functionality of Logos and only lose access to the newest features. At this moment you lose everything since you started your subscription. Ironically, it would cost Logos nothing to offer this for subscribers since, after two years, they actually paid for these features and they received the money. So allowing customers to keep the "old features" will not cost FL a great deal.

At this stage I am still a firm supporter of Logos and still believe it is the best Bible Software; offering the best possible possibilities for both lay and professional Bible readers. But I am becoming apprehensive about my ability to keep up with Logos in the future. For me this is very sad since I have invested thousands of Dollars in Logos since 1996.

Sarel Slabbert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842301#Comment_842301

[quote]

I agree completely. Logos is by far the best Bible Software out there.

[quote]

Nobody is forcing us to upgrade to 7. Nobody is forcing us to subscribe to Now.

Again true, but we want to support FL by buying their wonderful product and keep them producing better tools. Changes made to how FL operate do make it a bit more difficult to keep up with Logos.

[quote]

Logos 6 will work the same when you open it today as it did last week.

Unless you are a subscriber to Logos Now. Then if you stop, Logos will not work the same.

[quote]

Just like the company that made the car you drive. They are going to come out with a newer better model. They are going to charge more for the new model. You get to decide if you want the new model.

or they will go out of business and then the warranty on your car will be void.

Not the best analogy. You do not add to your old car. You completely replace the old car by selling it and buying a new car. You get something back for your old car. FL do offer Dynamic Pricing, but is just subtracting what you already paid. With Logos you add to it, you grow it and you mature with it. You become dependent on its abilities and resources. You do not sell your previous library to get the newest library.

I still would like it if FLallowed us to keep the functionality of features after a certain period of subscription. i.e 2 years. Would FL consider this?

Andrew Malone

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842304#Comment_842304

One more suggestion for refining the various metaphors at play:

[quote]

Nobody is forcing us to upgrade to 7. Nobody is forcing us to subscribe to Now.

Again true, but we want to support FL by buying their wonderful product and keep them producing better tools. Changes made to how FL operate do make it a bit more difficult to keep up with Logos.

[quote]

Logos 6 will work the same when you open it today as it did last week.

Do any of these analogies break down when we consider the fact that support ceases for older versions of Logos? My car is 20–21 years old — exactly the same as my 3.5" diskette version of Logos 1.6. But I can take my car to most mechanics for basic support (which, indeed, is often easier and cheaper to service than complicated newer models). But when I've been running Logos 4 on Windows XP, I can not get formal support for an older product.

Likewise, my older iPad runs best on iOS7. I won't be upgrading to later versions of iOS. So, while it still works very nicely, it's just been announced that the iOS app won't be acquiring any further updates. I wonder if support will also eventually cease there?

In short, even if there's no explicit shelf life on Logos products, is there an implicit one?

Sarel Slabbert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842306#Comment_842306

Do any of these analogies break down when we consider the fact that support ceases for older versions of Logos? My car is 20–21 years old — exactly the same as my 3.5" diskette version of Logos 1.6. But I can take my car to most mechanics for basic support (which, indeed, is often easier and cheaper to service than complicated newer models). But when I've been running Logos 4 on Windows XP, I can not get formal support for an older product.

Likewise, my older iPad runs best on iOS7. I won't be upgrading to later versions of iOS. So, while it still works very nicely, it's just been announced that the iOS app won't be acquiring any further updates. I wonder if support will also eventually cease there?

In short, even if there's no explicit shelf life on Logos products, is there an implicit one?

I may sound like a broken record, but FL could easily negate this problem by offering their subscription service, with continued "ownership" of older features after a certain period of subscription. I hope someone from FL would reply. I believe that someone would have already mentioned this in the past, but my time was limited so I could not find such a discussion quickly.

Rene Atchley

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842309#Comment_842309

I don't know if FL is run by Christians or not. I don't know if FL is dedicated to their customers or not. I don't know if FL is about helping me grow as a person of faith with their software. What I do know is that every other piece of Bible software that I have bought over the years have gone out of business or their software doesn't function as well as Logos. This is a business which is geared to make an every growing profit off as many people as it can for as long as it can. If there is ever a doubt about their business orientation it was cleared up as the sales rep. tried to hurry me off the phone after purchasing Logos 7 Starter..you know I hit my time limit that I was given for the level of purchase I made. Logos 7 is just another piece of software sucking money from my pocket for a product just as I am yet another customer who has a little bit of money...imo.

mike

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842313#Comment_842313

My expression is the same as your profile picture... whooaaa...

Hang on there.. I'm sure the CS was like that because they were busy on L7 first day. But on normal days I'm sure they're super patient with customers.

Bill Moore

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842309#Comment_842309

I may sound like a broken record, but FL could easily negate this problem by offering their subscription service, with continued "ownership" of older features after a certain period of subscription. I hope someone from FL would reply. I believe that someone would have already mentioned this in the past, but my time was limited so I could not find such a discussion quickly.

If your suggestion were incorporated into Logos Now, I expect that many of us on the fence about subscribing would jump in. It would solve my concern about having to drop down the road because of budget constraints when I'm no longer able to do vocational ministry.

David A. Peterson

I have a suggestion in regards to:

Look at the forums now. Lot of customers including myself were not clear from the product pages that told that a purchase included the feature set, when actually it did not, and purchased the wrong/incomplete product.

Instead of making it explicit and clear in the product pages what customers will get/own, Faithlife resorts to giving explanations of how a 'Package' is defined etc from "THEIR" perspective without as much acknowledging the customer's perspective or difficulties.

In addition to the MVP's (indicated by the stars), FL could use a few LCD's (which would be indicated by squares under their profile pic). These Lowest Common Denominators would be made up of average Logos users that have a basic understanding of the software and minimal computer skills. People like me. We could be brought to test out new features, not to see if they work, but just if we can figure them out. If I can figure it out, most people can. Additionally, we would be provided the opportunity to view the new pages before release, and see if we, as average users can figure them out. We would earn our squares by the number of questions we asked, not the number of answers we provide. I am willing to volunteer, as I am sure many others would as well.

Warmest Regards,

Sarel Slabbert

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842371#Comment_842371

If your suggestion were incorporated into Logos Now, I expect that many of us on the fence about subscribing would jump in. It would solve my concern about having to drop down the road because of budget constraints when I'm no longer able to do vocational ministry.

I would, without doubt make me take the plunge. This is my only concern regarding the subscription option. I really think it is feasible. I hope someone from FL responds.

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842306#Comment_842306

Do any of these analogies break down when we consider the fact that support ceases for older versions of Logos? ... In short, even if there's no explicit shelf life on Logos products, is there an implicit one?

Not quite.

Let's suppose John Smith bought a 3.5" diskette version of Logos 1.6, and never bought another product from Faithlife ever again, although he used and appreciated the contents of that diskette, making sure that he had Logos on each of the succession of computers that he's owned in the last twenty years. At this point, on his latest machine (assuming he stays remotely current with those), he would be running Logos 6.14, and the actual resources on that diskette have probably also all received one or more meaningful upgrades, too. Furthermore, his installation of Logos 6 will remain fully supported more than long enough for him to pick up the free Logos 7 in February (or so), without paying a dime. Finally, over that entire twenty year period, if John has ever had a problem related to Logos, he could have--and quite possibly has--phoned or emailed Faithlife, checked the forums, looked on the blog, used Wiki and/or other help documentation, etc. All of that support has been completely free to him (in terms of money), other than any incidental phone or Internet usage charges.

People don't upgrade their cars or their iPads principally because it costs them money to do so. It doesn't cost money to upgrade from Logos X.x to Logos 6.14, and in a little while, Logos 7.x will be free too. If anything, this where the analogy breaks down. The software upgrades for an iPad made be free, but the next generation iPad--the hardware--is not. Faithlife doesn't sell the hardware that their software runs on.

Bob Pritchett

I am customer of ten years. I remember the old days when i was treated like a King.

I'm sorry to hear that you don't feel as well taken care of. I hope that you'll reach out to me directly at bob@faithlife.com anytime you aren't getting the help you need.

Look at the forums now. Lot of customers including myself were not clear from the product pages that told that a purchase included the feature set, when actually it did not, and purchased the wrong/incomplete product.

I'm sorry that you found the product descriptions confusing. I'm not sure if this relates to the pages that were down on Monday and Tuesday, or to mistakes on those pages. I do know that we made a specific effort this time to bring the whole feature set down to a lower base package level, which should have made getting all the new Logos 7 data sets and tools even more accessible.

Instead of making it explicit and clear in the product pages what customers will get/own, Faithlife resorts to giving explainations of how a 'Package' is defined etc from "THEIR" perspective without as much acknowledging the customer's persepctive or difficulties.

The 'fine print' is actually an attempt to be clear. (And isn't really fine print... it's just explanatory text.) But I confess, it's getting very complicated to track all the details -- for us too!

I love to press the reset button: I love to set up a fresh computer without bringing over any files or apps, and just installing what it turns out I really still need. I moved houses once and didn't bring the dishes or silverware (and lots of other stuff), forcing us to purchase what we really wanted and not to drag along old things we didn't use. It was great!

We've even pressed the reset button on the Logos Bible Software technology: After our 1991 release we shipped a 100% (or 97%!) platform reset in 1995, 2001, and 2009.

I fantasize about pressing the reset button on everything in Logos Bible Software: the chance to deliver the product we'd design in 2016, offered with 2016's business model, priced at 2016's price points, and sold for a single clear price in a single clear configuration.

Simplicity! [:D]

There's been some comparison of buying a new version of Logos to buying a new car. I wish that comparison held true, because it's really simple: You want the new car? You buy the new car for its price (or a tiny negotiated discount, which most people hate negotiating).

Every year they make a new car model and they put whatever they want into it. Sometimes they invent new features. Sometimes they improve old features. Sometimes they take last year's optional expensive add-on and make it standard equipment. But every year they sell every customer a full-price new product with no consideration for what the customer bought last year.

Trading in a car isn't really like dynamic pricing at all. A trade in is just re-selling your old purchase to the same person you're buying the new car from. You have to severely discount your old car from the price you paid in order to sell it. The asset doesn't just feel old and go out of style, it literally wears out, gets banged up, breaks down, etc. The old car isn't valued based on its features, it is valued as what people will pay for it. (A feature might make its resale higher, but some features mean nothing in resale no matter how much you spent to add them on.)

Car manufacturers get to add, say, adaptive cruise control to their car this year without worrying that everyone who ever bought cruise control in the past will want a proportionate credit for their earlier purchase of that specific feature. :-)

And, while car manufacturers do provide maintenance for a long time, in almost every case you have to pay for that. (Either in a priced-in warranty purchase, or in actual out of pocket repairs costs.) They do not garage your car at no cost, and they do not provide ongoing service that costs them a monthly fee without passing that cost on to you. (Buy a new car with Internet access, or satellite radio, built-in, and you'll be 'subscribing' to your car.)

Don't worry, we aren't going to press the reset button on your Logos Bible Software investment.

But that's why it's complicated: our users (sensibly, for good reason) want to make sure that they get the most from their investment. Their books don't wear out digitally, and they don't want to pay for them twice. They do want to buy bundles and get discounts and not have to buy every title separately at list price. (And we have to use bundles to offer those discounts -- the quantities bundles generate justify the discounts publishers allow us to offer.) But then they want their unique library -- unique combinations of more than 100,000 different SKUs! -- to be reflected in the pricing and configuration of every future purchase.

I get it. I care too.

(Though sometimes I still press the reset button... at some point I stopped caring, for example, which music albums I'd bought years ago, and stopped transferring them around to new music platforms. I just subscribe to 'lots of streaming music' and it's enough. I no longer care if that one song isn't in that particular streaming service. But I know everyone doesn't want to do that, and I probably don't care about music as much as some other people do...)

I don't see how we can offer 100,000 titles (licensed from more than 500 different publishers over 25 years, with dozens of different contracts) to millions of users, whose purchase history can be as old as 25 years or as short as 'yesterday', on technology platforms that have changed from 5.25" floppy disks to unlimited streaming data on the phone in my pocket, and not have some complexity. Or a lot of it. [:(]

The best I can promise is that we'll still be hear, and still listen to your concerns, and still try to make things right.

I am sure we'll probably confuse a bunch of people again next year with something else. I know we're going to try to offer some 'completely reset concept' products for new users (like Logos Cloud), and I'm guessing some existing users will buy those things just because they like those offerings, and some won't because those new offerings won't have a way to take into account every previous purchase.

And we'll continue to upgrade and improve and support the existing model and platform, and some potential new users will find that inaccessible and hopelessly confusing, and will think that the long-time forum users must have Ph.D.'s in "Logos Package Vocabulary", [:)], and will choose not to buy that old fashioned downloadable, installable software.

Please keep sending feedback, please keep forgiving us when we make a mistake, and please don't be shy about reaching out directly if there's something I can fix for you.

P.S. The MVPs are awesome, and we appreciate them so much. Thank you!

Shannon Martin

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842505#Comment_842505

Thanks so much. Very well explained.

As a bivocational pastor with a business background I can certainly appreciate the complexity of the business you are running.

Candidly when I compare Logos7 price points to software in other sectors it seems like a excellent value. I have certainly paid more for less.

God bless your company. I am grateful that you are using your talents in a field that adds value to so many.

Brent Hoefling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842194#Comment_842194

I don't want to make this out to be yet another complaint, so let me start with; I too have been a customer and user for decades, since the beginning of getting the software of floppy diskettes and having a stack of them to be sure, and then backing up license information on one separately as well. AND my most recent support with Faithlife was the upgrade to Collectors 7.

With that said, to my memory - I complained one time in the past when there was a move to libronix, and I seemed to have lost some of my resources in the migration process (turns out I had restored an older license file, and tech support was great about helping me through it.)

So, from then until L7 release, I had been a happy camper, spending tens of thousands of dollars, and supporting the paradigm of Logos with my money and time. when I woke up to a L7 upgrade (LN user), I was excited. I had already set aside half a day to watch the launch online stream.

But before the stream, and after I was completely reindexed, I noticed a "bug" in the Courses tool (addressed elsewhere in the forums). Eli did an AWESOME job explaining the situation. My frustrations relieved, but disappointment was only slightly lessened. (still have not heard back from CS on this issue, otherwise, part of the challenge - that had never happened in all my years of being a Logos/Faithlife customer/user)

After following his advice this morning and finding my last class in the courses tool, and "fast forwarding" to where I knew I left off, it didn't take long to find another bug (already brought up by someone else in the forums, and I commented there as well). this one was a pretty major one (for me). The courses tool L7, opens the reading materials inside the tool to be able to track completion. The discovery was that the Courses L7, does not allow CTRL-R (reading resource). perhaps not a big deal for many, but it is a pretty major part of my learning process in Mobile ED. I had even purchased several new "voices" for my computer for this purpose.

I guess that all that said, I feel like that at least in part, there has been a loss of communications - especially as a LN user. Again, Eli helped with some of this in his explanation to me about the issue, but what I didn't realize then was it was not only about progress tracking/resource reading tracking that was not the same and perceptually lost, an actual function that I use all the time is now gone, leaving me to have to do my classes, two versions ago, technology with bookmarks and resources directly selected from the Library.

Eli Evans (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842540#Comment_842540

Eli did an AWESOME job explaining the situation. My frustrations relieved, but disappointment was only slightly lessened. (still have not heard back from CS on this issue, otherwise, part of the challenge - that had never happened in all my years of being a Logos/Faithlife customer/user)

Thanks for the kind words, Brent. I told the CS director that I had responded to you on the forums, so it's likely that you won't hear from them on that issue. If they haven't responded about something else, please let us know.

The discovery was that the Courses L7, does not allow CTRL-R (reading resource). perhaps not a big deal for many, but it is a pretty major part of my learning process in Mobile ED. I had even purchased several new "voices" for my computer for this purpose.

The previous incarnation of the Courses tool required you to opened required readings for Mobile Ed courses in another window, and that window supported reading aloud. As far as I can tell, the Courses tool in 6.x Logos Now never supported reading aloud within the Courses tool window. (`Ctrl+R` does nothing and the `Read aloud` menu item isn't on the Courses tool menu.)

What changed in L7 is that the new Courses tool brings the required reading snippets into the Courses tool via the `Continue` button (instead of forcing you to click the link within the textbook and read in another panel). You can click on the heading at the top of the required reading (left of the `Continue` button) to open it in a new panel, and then `Ctrl+R` will work as it always did.

Unless I'm mistaken or don't understand, in which case, please correct me.

I'm still investigating the bookmarks issue.

Brent Hoefling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842580#Comment_842580

The previous incarnation of the Courses tool required you to opened required readings for Mobile Ed courses in another window, and that window supported reading aloud. As far as I can tell, the Courses tool in 6.x Logos Now never supported reading aloud within the Courses tool window. (`Ctrl+R` does nothing and the `Read aloud` menu item isn't on the Courses tool menu.)

What changed in L7 is that the new Courses tool brings the required reading snippets into the Courses tool via the `Continue` button (instead of forcing you to click the link within the textbook and read in another panel). You can click on the heading at the top of the required reading (left of the `Continue` button) to open it in a new panel, and then `Ctrl+R` will work as it always did.

Unless I'm mistaken or don't understand, in which case, please correct me.

I'm still investigating the bookmarks issue.

you got it correct, again, thank you. all part of the read/seen tracking paradigm Courses LN vs. the progress tracking paradigm in L7.

The read/seen is done in another window (allowing Read aloud) when clicking the link in the course vs. Courses L7 everything in the tool window.

Eli Evans (Logos)

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842587#Comment_842587

(I do notice that clicking the resource reading hyperlink in the top of the new Courses tool doesn't show the start and end reading bars in the new window that opens up, though, so we'll look into that. It should.)

Jack Caviness

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842580#Comment_842580

You can click on the heading at the top of the required reading (left of the `Continue` button) to open it in a new panel

Thank you for that information. For me, that is quite valuable.

Andrew Malone

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842445#Comment_842445

Let's suppose John Smith bought a 3.5" diskette version of Logos 1.6, and never bought another product from Faithlife ever again...

Thanks for helping spot some of the shortcomings in my analogy. [:D]

Brent Hoefling

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842592#Comment_842592

(I do notice that clicking the resource reading hyperlink in the top of the new Courses tool doesn't show the start and end reading bars in the new window that opens up, though, so we'll look into that. It should.)

please and thank you

SineNomine

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842785#Comment_842785

Let's suppose John Smith bought a 3.5" diskette version of Logos 1.6, and never bought another product from Faithlife ever again...
Thanks for helping spot some of the shortcomings in my analogy.

You're very welcome. Thinking through all of this stuff was actually kind of fun. [:)]

Doc B

Peter, while I generally agree with your concerns about the direction of the company itself, I have had an entirely different experience with the MVPs. As you can see from my tagline, they have been universally helpful, even when I have asked stupid questions.

On the other hand, I have indeed seen egregious behavior by forum members, but to my recollection, none of them have been MVPs. (I've even been blasted by a FL employee...unprofessionally...but not an MVP.) Even the more "direct" MVPs, like MJ and Bama, are always helpful, including when they have strongly disagreed with me (which has happened more than a few times).

Don't confuse a handful of the regulars who are not MVPs (and can be rude at times) with the real thing.

Doc B

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/842097#Comment_842097

Logos Membership (forgot its name) ... seems another turning point. Creating customer classes.

Amen to that!

Andrew Malone

I remember the old days when ... Bob would regularly come to the forums to address concerns of the customers

You can, of course, look at Bob's 'Forum Activity' and see whether the frequency of his posts is satisfactory. I don't know what's reasonable for a CEO, but he doesn't appear to be permanently cloistered behind a firewall.