Bob: From King To Customer - The end of Faithlife as we knew it?

Page 4 of 5 (88 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next >
This post has 87 Replies | 15 Followers

Posts 1113
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 9:13 AM

Jeffrey Visser:
It seems odd that this is being blamed on the publishers when other providers such as Google and Amazon can sell the same electronic books for 30%-70% less on a consistent basis. In one case, I bought a set of books on amazon for less than 1/6th the cost of Logos.

I wouldn't argue that Logos resources aren't sometimes overpriced, but they're not at all the same electronic books. Kindle is nearly useless for serious work.

Posts 22
Shannon Martin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 9:15 AM

Jeffrey Visser:

Bobby Terhune:
Publishers are now pushing for a higher percentage of a books list price for royalties, some as high a 70% of list price according to Bob.

It seems odd that this is being blamed on the publishers when other providers such as Google and Amazon can sell the same electronic books for 30%-70% less on a consistent basis. In one case, I bought a set of books on amazon for less than 1/6th the cost of Logos.

Sounds like Amazon may be a good solution for you. Big Smile

For me a set of books is worth intrinsically more in the Logos system than on my Kindle.

I had several Kindle books that I repurchased in Logos because of this added value. 

However, if cost is the only consideration Amazon is a great choice.   

Posts 10231
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 9:39 AM

Adam, I picked one nearest ... pretty representative and no intent to criticize the writer.

What is it?

The Corresponding Words Visual Filter automatically draws on surface, lemma, and root data to automatically identify similar words on hover over or on click.

How does it work?

The new Corresponding Words Visual Filter instantly identifies everywhere repetition occurs within any of your resources. Find all the places "love," "loves," and "loved" appears within a commentary or the biblical text simply by hovering over the word you want to investigate. Or find all the places a specific lemma, root, or sense occurs within a biblical text. You can even see how the author of Jonah uses the phrase "go down" to highlight both Jonah's physical and spiritual descent from the presence of the Lord.

By identifying repetition, the Corresponding Words Visual Filter helps you draw out key themes and ideas in a passage.

Comments:

1.  The name has nothing to do with the function. No fault of the thread-writer, but he/she emphasizes repetitive usage.  I didn't even look at the the thread; thought it was the cross-resource highlighting or similar.  

2. Newer users have no clue what 'surface' is. And lemma/root is technical usage you describe later. Plus the 'what is it' speaks to some sort of drawing process, which is more correctly, how it works.  'What is it' is a way for pastors and Bible readers to quickly catch the connects ... very valuable in Bible class or building a sermon.  Who'd of thought?

3. The write-up points to the resource page. I thought, oh good  ... how to use!! The key question!  Nope ... more marketing stuff.

This is just an example. But you guys seem to want to dance around why people use your product. Start with value. Then details.

Regarding product pages, I regard your evasiveness as BS (no offense). You HAVE to assign use to the product, even if many uses:

- If a Catholic customer, what's the great news hidden in Verbum7?!  What can they now do? Unbelievable value?

- Or a small town pastor?  You speak to tools, not a multi-year goal to improve his toiling.  I watched Bill ... a pastor, as he struggled. Where were you? Where was the pastor's FAQ? (as an example). Bob said they're your bread and butter.

Again, just comments. I could easily be criticized, but you asked.


Posts 22
Shannon Martin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 10:04 AM

Denise:

Adam, I picked one nearest ... pretty representative and no intent to criticize the writer.

What is it?

The Corresponding Words Visual Filter automatically draws on surface, lemma, and root data to automatically identify similar words on hover over or on click.

How does it work?

The new Corresponding Words Visual Filter instantly identifies everywhere repetition occurs within any of your resources. Find all the places "love," "loves," and "loved" appears within a commentary or the biblical text simply by hovering over the word you want to investigate. Or find all the places a specific lemma, root, or sense occurs within a biblical text. You can even see how the author of Jonah uses the phrase "go down" to highlight both Jonah's physical and spiritual descent from the presence of the Lord.

By identifying repetition, the Corresponding Words Visual Filter helps you draw out key themes and ideas in a passage.

Comments:

1.  The name has nothing to do with the function. No fault of the thread-writer, but he/she emphasizes repetitive usage.  I didn't even look at the the thread; thought it was the cross-resource highlighting or similar.  

2. Newer users have no clue what 'surface' is. And lemma/root is technical usage you describe later. Plus the 'what is it' speaks to some sort of drawing process, which is more correctly, how it works.  'What is it' is a way for pastors and Bible readers to quickly catch the connects ... very valuable in Bible class or building a sermon.  Who'd of thought?

3. The write-up points to the resource page. I thought, oh good  ... how to use!! The key question!  Nope ... more marketing stuff.

This is just an example. But you guys seem to want to dance around why people use your product. Start with value. Then details.

Regarding product pages, I regard your evasiveness as BS (no offense). You HAVE to assign use to the product, even if many uses:

- If a Catholic customer, what's the great news hidden in Verbum7?!  What can they now do? Unbelievable value?

- Or a small town pastor?  You speak to tools, not a multi-year goal to improve his toiling.  I watched Bill ... a pastor, as he struggled. Where were you? Where was the pastor's FAQ? (as an example). Bob said they're your bread and butter.

Again, just comments. I could easily be criticized, but you asked.

Some good ideas. As part of my day job I write copy for a consumer faced website. I can tell you it is always a challenge to know which consumer I am writing to. Too simple and I could turn away a more knowledgeable customer. Too detailed and I lose the person with no knowledge of our product.

My thought on this is that Logos is a very complex software. They are serving everyone from ultra high IQ professors in a seminary setting to the layperson with no formal education in Bible study. If they were to write a website that would answer all the questions of each user it would be many times the size of the website they have now.

A great solution for me was to take a several day class offered by Morris Proctor. I found it to be very worth the time and it made Logos and even better value to me. 

As a consumer, I love that my IPhone is just intuitive. From the first time I get a new phone there is no need to look at a manual or take training. However, realistically Logos will never be like that. The tasks we need the software to do are far too complex for it to be that simple and still serve the wide group of users.

Maybe Logos8 could have Siri to guide us through. Big Smile

 

Posts 228
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 10:29 AM

Never really thought about it before but these are written from the developers perspective i.e tell me about the feature then tell me how to use it.

To make the feature attractive to users you need to sell the problem it solves before explaining how it does it.

"In the Biblical Languages and Culture repetition..."

"Knowing where these occur in any passage that you are studying..."

 "In Logos you can now do this using..."

Posts 370
LogosEmployee
Adam Borries (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 11:18 AM

Denise, if I may re-phrase your three points:

  1. Feature names should be more descriptive of purpose, not just function.
  2. Description should be more benefit-driven, and less technical. (And in that sense be more marketing-friendly; this also seems to be the point of your comments on value.)
  3. More resources should be available for training. (Reiterated as pastor's FAQ.)

Just curious-- did you watch the video? If so, did it help? If not, why not?

Adam Borries | Product Manager, Logos desktop application

Message me on Faithlife.com >>

Posts 370
LogosEmployee
Adam Borries (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 11:23 AM

Shannon Martin:
My thought on this is that Logos is a very complex software. They are serving everyone from ultra high IQ professors in a seminary setting to the layperson with no formal education in Bible study.

Great summary of some of our biggest challenges.

Graham Owen:
you need to sell the problem it solves before explaining how it does it.

Agreed. We try to do this in every Logos Pro video, along with a practical demonstration any user could follow along with. But, there is certainly room for improvement in our written copy.

Adam Borries | Product Manager, Logos desktop application

Message me on Faithlife.com >>

Posts 145
Peter Lever | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 12:21 PM

Adam Borries (Faithlife):
Great summary of some of our biggest challenges.

This "biggest challenge", and others like upgrading a website without taking it down, need to upgrade end-user  software of numerous users without frustrating them is not unique to Faithlife. May large B2C Company has it. I can keep my job and afford to earn a living and pay for the upgrades and payment plans only if I do these typically better than how I have seen Logos to do it. None of the employers or companies I worked for will take 'we are very complex' for an argument. I am expected to simplify for and mitigate the complexity and ensure a smooth upgrade or release.

Heard of design thinking and user experience design? Define some personas that are representative of the diverse user base. Map their "experience" needs. Do 'user testing' with them rather than ticking off only with the MVPs. Let me know if that was attempted next time and all of the "biggest challenges" remain the same. I can arrange for that to be solved  probably at much lesser cost than it takes Faithlife now to do all the fire fighting..

Posts 10231
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 12:24 PM

Adam, good summary.

In defense of the copy guy/gal, the actual tool execution is pretty loosey goosey ... tried it eating lunch. Especially with hebrew. But not germaine.

No, I don't do videos. Mainly chews up too much time. Scan and read. Go, go, go.  I guess Bob loves videos.


Posts 370
LogosEmployee
Adam Borries (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 12:44 PM

Denise:
No, I don't do videos. Mainly chews up too much time. Scan and read. Go, go, go.  I guess Bob loves videos.

That's what I wondered. (Not to speak for Bob, but I think he, like you, personally prefers to scan and read.) We have plans to add better descriptors, written instructions, and more detailed video tutorials to our feature pages (see https://www.logos.com/logos-pro/sermon-editor for an example). I'll solicit feedback on which features are most popular/in need of training, so we can prioritize that work.

Adam Borries | Product Manager, Logos desktop application

Message me on Faithlife.com >>

Posts 10231
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 12:58 PM

Thank you, Adam.  And I'd never have guessed regarding Bob!


Posts 809
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 12:59 PM

Adam Borries (Faithlife):

Denise, if I may re-phrase your three points:

  1. Feature names should be more descriptive of purpose, not just function.
  2. Description should be more benefit-driven, and less technical. (And in that sense be more marketing-friendly; this also seems to be the point of your comments on value.)
  3. More resources should be available for training. (Reiterated as pastor's FAQ.)

Just curious-- did you watch the video? If so, did it help? If not, why not?

Adam and Denise:

I hope you don't mind me jumping in here as someone who is not NEARLY as knowledgeable about these things as the two of you, but more from a novice perspective.

I had to read both your posts TWICE just to understand the underlying issue (that either reveals my ignorance or IQ or both, but whatever).  However, I do have to agree quite a bit with Denise, although I loved how Adam summed it up in three points.  As someone who loves the software, and spends a pretty hefty penny to use it, I agree that the feature names should better describe it's purpose.  My biggest complaint (if you want to call it that) is number two.  The description should be more benefit-driven and less technical, as even in her post, Denise mentioned that most people don't know what is lemma, etc., etc., and I can concur that the average Logos user is clueless of the technical terms.  Let me give you an example.  In the Bible Study class I taught last year, I had close to 170 women in there.  Some were pastors wives, deaconesses, etc., etc.  Some were stay at home moms and some ran their own businesses.  Anyway, by the end of the class about 30% of them had purchased some level of Logos because they saw me using it.  I hosted a couple classes for them on the basics of using it.  As far as I know, none of them have ever come on this board (which is where I find a ton of help and information).  Also, a fair amount of them, to my knowledge, have stopped using Logos because it's "too complicated," so they get frustrated and instead do a search online at biblehub or mybiblestudy, etc. 

Now, that was last year and I have noticed a push for #3 above... more resources for training!  Denise mentioned she doesn't like to watch videos.  I find them most valuable for training.  Most of the ladies in my class I sent to Mark's Logos 4 Videos, as those were the only ones I knew of at the time (and they are fabulous).  I find your Pro Training Videos a step in the right direction, and so far watched all of MP "New to Logos 7" videos and about 1/3 of the Pro Training Videos on features I find intriguing.  I hope you continue to add training resources as I truly believe that if you only listen to the voices on these forums, you are getting those who are more or less sold on the software and are your clients in the top percentage of knowledge. (As I said, this is for the most part.  Some of us are just stubborn and refuse to quit. :) )

For what it's worth, I hope this gives a third perspective and it helps continue to make Logos easier for the lay person.

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 3086
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:04 PM

I agree with Denise's three basic points, especially the first two. I personally have the relevant qualities needed to take any of the new features of Logos 7 (or old pre-Logos 7 features that I never used) and to explore them, figure out pretty well how to use them, and get a good understanding of what benefit they have... without any training or guidance whatsoever from Faithlife or through the forums.

Unfortunately, perhaps, I don't have the time or inclination to do that for all of the new features.

What I do want to do is to be able to look at feature descriptions, see immediately at least the proximate benefits of using them, and (for the interesting-to-me ones) get a lucid grasp of how they work. Then I can try out the ones I'm interested in, avoid the ones I'm not interested in, and actually benefit from features I hadn't used before, all in a time-efficient manner. You want me to do all of this too because then I can sell more people I know or meet on the value of buying Faithlife products.

Adam Borries (Faithlife):
Description should be more benefit-driven, and less technical. (And in that sense be more marketing-friendly; this also seems to be the point of your comments on value.)

One frequently successful (and common) way of doing that, which I strongly recommend, is to split the description into two parts: the first part is benefit-driven; the second is technical. Divide them using a sub-header or in some other appropriate manner.

Posts 370
LogosEmployee
Adam Borries (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:18 PM

Thanks, Cynthia! 

Cynthia in Florida:
Also, a fair amount of them, to my knowledge, have stopped using Logos because it's "too complicated," so they get frustrated

I'm sorry to say, this is not the first time we've heard this; and it's exactly the reason the Logos Pro team exists. For those women in your study group who want an introduction to Logos (or anyone who wants to learn how study the Bible methodically), recommend to them to try our 10-Day Bible Study Challenge. Hundreds of people have written to us saying how thankful they are for such a clear and practical course on how to study the Bible with Logos.

Cynthia in Florida:
I find [videos] most valuable for training. 

Most people do; it's nice to be able to see the example to follow along with. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't take a both/and approach with regard to text tutorials as well. 

Adam Borries | Product Manager, Logos desktop application

Message me on Faithlife.com >>

Posts 296
Bruce Roth | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:37 PM

My .03 cents.  I am a causal user of the software with a lot of investment.  Neither a pastor or scholar, just a layperson that teaches a lot. 

There is a classic problem with software and usability that hasn't gone away especially as software grows in feature/functionality. 

My classic example is Quicken Software. My initial exposure to them was back in the DOS days and you had to ability to have a screen open to you that looked exactly like your paper checkbook with a check register on top and a blank check on the bottom.  Simply fill in the blanks like you do writing a check.  No brainier for most folks.  Over time this has morphed into a complex product but you can still use it like a check register.

Probably most folks in a church just want something simple that resembles their paper Bible.  Let me get to the passage referenced quickly and let me discover insights about the passage.  Too much feature bloat will drive folks away.  Look at your TV remote and see how much you enjoy that, especially if you have other devices tied to it.

Posts 22
Shannon Martin | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:45 PM

Bruce Roth:

My .03 cents.  I am a causal user of the software with a lot of investment.  Neither a pastor or scholar, just a layperson that teaches a lot. 

There is a classic problem with software and usability that hasn't gone away especially as software grows in feature/functionality. 

My classic example is Quicken Software. My initial exposure to them was back in the DOS days and you had to ability to have a screen open to you that looked exactly like your paper checkbook with a check register on top and a blank check on the bottom.  Simply fill in the blanks like you do writing a check.  No brainier for most folks.  Over time this has morphed into a complex product but you can still use it like a check register.

Probably most folks in a church just want something simple that resembles their paper Bible.  Let me get to the passage referenced quickly and let me discover insights about the passage.  Too much feature bloat will drive folks away.  Look at your TV remote and see how much you enjoy that, especially if you have other devices tied to it.

I agree that simpler is often better when it comes to software.

However, is it possible that someone looking for that level of simplicity would be better served by a different software?

To keep the Quicken analogy I would say Logos is closer to QuickBooks or even MS Great Plains. More feature rich software.

Posts 13368
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:52 PM

Bruce Roth:
Probably most folks in a church just want something simple that resembles their paper Bible.

That's a lot of the reason for the new QuickStart layouts. Perhaps for new users they shouldn't be hidden on the Layouts menu, but put right up front on the Home page.

Posts 370
LogosEmployee
Adam Borries (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:58 PM

Bruce Roth:
Probably most folks in a church just want something simple that resembles their paper Bible.  Let me get to the passage referenced quickly and let me discover insights about the passage.

Shannon Martin:
is it possible that someone looking for that level of simplicity would be better served by a different software?

We have that too: https://faithlifebible.com/ 

Adam Borries | Product Manager, Logos desktop application

Message me on Faithlife.com >>

Posts 177
Andrew Zoll | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 1:59 PM

Cynthia in Florida:

  I find your Pro Training Videos a step in the right direction, and so far watched all of MP "New to Logos 7" videos and about 1/3 of the Pro Training Videos on features I find intriguing.  

How did you do that? I can't seem to find them! I'd love to give them a watch. I think I've got a good grasp on Logos 7, but Morris always seems to think of an application for many features that I don't think of.

💻MacBook Pro (15-inch 2018) | 2.9 GHz i9 6 core | 32GB RAM | Radeon Pro Vega 20 4 GB Graphics | 1TB SSD💻
💾MacOS Catalina 10.15 Beta (19A4871)💾
🎁Logos 7 Portfolio🎁
⌨Logos 7 Extended Feature Set⌨
🌐Logos Now🌐

Posts 13368
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 26 2016 2:01 PM

Andrew Zoll:
How did you do that? I can't seem to find them! I'd love to give them a watch. I think I've got a good grasp on Logos 7, but Morris always seems to think of an application for many features that I don't think of.

https://ref.ly/logosres/quickstartl7;art=overview 

Page 4 of 5 (88 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next > | RSS