<{~":- !!!

Page 2 of 7 (121 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next > ... Last »
This post has 120 Replies | 9 Followers

Posts 804
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 12:47 PM

Mark Barnes:

 A better way, which I'm hoping for in the future, would be a system which would present options for { searches whenever you typed { on the keyboard (in exactly the same way as @ does in a morph search). That would allow people to construct complex queries without having to remember a complex syntax.

MARK!  I think that this is, by far, the best suggestion yet!  The morph search, to me, is what I would think would be the most difficult to search, yet because of the way it is laid out, it is the easiest, and therefore one I use a lot! However, I also love that I can SEE the query, and therefore use it in another window when necessary.

This is a fantastic suggestion!!!

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 13210
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 12:49 PM

Francis:
Too much of this is either vague or technical mumbo-jumbo.

I accept that, and that's my point really. We can either explain it simply (and leave stuff out), or explain it fully (and it will be overwhelming). I'm not sure there's a middle ground.

Francis:
But if you tell me what is wrong with it, I can try to refine it.

What's wrong with it is that it's built on an approximation. That's fine for a simple explanation, but probably insufficient for something more detailed.

As a minimum, I would suggest that you're not going to be able to define this difference until you are sure you understand what a datatype and a datatype reference is. They're both defined simply in the Logos help file under Glossary.

When you're searching for < >, you're searching for datatype references, so if you can define a datatype reference, you can define that search. Once you've done that, it will probably immediately clear that { } searches are NOT searches for datatype references, and I think you'll be able to articulate the difference much more clearly.

I hope that's helpful. I'm happy to try and answer questions about datatypes and datatype references if you need more info.

Posts 4834
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 1:11 PM

Thanks Francis for the question and thanks Bradley, Andrew & Mark for taking time out to work through the question. Your answers were helpful.

Posts 7922
LogosEmployee

Francis:
I am wondering if the following statement would be accurate:

No, it is not.

<...> is used to find data type references. These are a core concept of the Logos digital library, and it will be hard to understand and formulate complex searches until you understand what a data type reference is, and when and why you would want to search for one. As Mark said, consult the glossary in the Logos help file.

{...} is used to find... well, other things. As the name “search extension” implies, they extend the search engine in various ways. Some of them, such as the {Milestone} search extension, use data type references; others don't. Each one is different and there's not a simple way to summarise them other than: they return results that aren't simply textual terms or data type references.

Posts 7922
LogosEmployee

PL:

Are there plans to simplify / streamline / merge these at some point in the future?

Are we going to get Google style natural-language search in Logos anytime soon? (e.g. "all places where Jesus talks to God in the gospels")

We would definitely like to make advanced searches easier. This probably (probably! no promises Smile) won't be by defining a new, simpler, query syntax but by making our advanced data sets easier to query in a more point-and-click fashion. If you're a Logos Now subscriber, try Bible Browser. I found 44 results for that query with just a few clicks and no complex syntax.

(By "places" I think you meant "passages", but if you actually meant "physical locations", then that's in Bible Browser too.)

Posts 26021
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 1:53 PM

Somewhere in this thread two points should get made:

  • if you are going to ask complex questions, you should expect to need complex search argument
  • for many people, the way to learn the complexities of the search is not definitions but practice, practice, practice ... don't just use the right click; read what it has built

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 7922
LogosEmployee

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):
I found 44 results

(If you try this, you'll find that 3 are false positives due to nested reported speech: Jesus repeating what a Pharisee addressed to God.)

Posts 7922
LogosEmployee

I realised after posting the screenshot that it only shows direct reported speech. If you want to find instances of Jesus praying, then Person: Jesus + Sense: to pray (petition) will bring a different selection of results.

Posts 4834
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 2:27 PM

MJ. Smith:
for many people, the way to learn the complexities of the search is not definitions but practice, practice, practice ... don't just use the right click; read what it has built

Very important starting point to understanding searches.

Posts 804
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 3:37 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Francis:
I am wondering if the following statement would be accurate:

No, it is not.

<...> is used to find data type references. These are a core concept of the Logos digital library, and it will be hard to understand and formulate complex searches until you understand what a data type reference is, and when and why you would want to search for one. As Mark said, consult the glossary in the Logos help file.

{...} is used to find... well, other things. As the name “search extension” implies, they extend the search engine in various ways. Some of them, such as the {Milestone} search extension, use data type references; others don't. Each one is different and there's not a simple way to summarise them other than: they return results that aren't simply textual terms or data type references.

...and we're back at square one!

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 7922
LogosEmployee

Cynthia in Florida:
...and we're back at square one!

Not exactly Wink

"Square one" was "I don't know what any of these symbols mean".

Hopefully you're now at: I've learned that data type references are important for advanced searching; now I need to learn what those are. 

Smile

Posts 804
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 3:53 PM

MJ. Smith:

Somewhere in this thread two points should get made:

  • if you are going to ask complex questions, you should expect to need complex search argument
  • for many people, the way to learn the complexities of the search is not definitions but practice, practice, practice ... don't just use the right click; read what it has built

I'm not really too sure of the meaning behind your words (if there is any) or whether you meant to be ironic, but I think the opposite is true here.  Francis asked for a simple answer.  I don't think the intent was complexity, but what this research HAS revealed is that there is a problem when the best of the best here cannot explain how to search to even the most desirous learner.  Secondly, while I agree that we shouldn't just right click but read what is built, the question becomes WHY.  For instance, if I right click something and say...it comes out in French, what good is it if I don't know French, or even the letters or sounds.  See what I mean?

Something else this thread has taught me is that perhaps I'm not a dumb as I thought I was in this regard, as I have TRIED and TRIED and TRIED to learn how to search ever since I got this software back on Logos 3.  When we are told that {...} is used for "well...other things," without specificity, clearly something needs to be done to teach the non-techie average user.

And...in my best Forrest Gump voice I say, "And that's all I have to say about that!"

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 3108
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 4:15 PM

Bradley Grainger (Faithlife):

Not exactly Wink

"Square one" was "I don't know what any of these symbols mean".

Hopefully you're now at: I've learned that data type references are important for advanced searching; now I need to learn what those are. 

Smile

As someone who probably only knows about 10% of what is even possible with the software, I vaguely remember some of this from the 30-day challenge.

The thing I really like about Mobile Ed is that they include in-course activities which get you to use the software features to do your own research to learn more about the course material.

I definitely need to go through the 30-day challenge again, since all this is rusty, but have been holding off until LT271 is released, especially since it will support the Courses tool.

I hope that LT271 will include in-course activities which get us to actually do some advanced searches, as merely watching a video is never as effective in remembering, compared to watching then doing.

Posts 26021
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 4:54 PM

Cynthia in Florida:
When we are told that {...} is used for "well...other things," without specificity, clearly something needs to be done to teach the non-techie average user.

Okay "well ...other things" translates into

  • { } items for which one provides the values of one or more attributes / datatypes in contrast to
  • < > datatypes for which one supplies a value of the datatype itself in contrast to
  • " " text which is itself the value in contrast to
  • fields for which one provides no values or value of the field itself

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 26021
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 5:14 PM

Cynthia in Florida:
Francis asked for a simple answer. 

Francis is also assuming that there is a simple answer. While I have given a reasonably simple answer above, when one wishes to search discourse analysis mixed with morphological meaning mixed with sense information, one cannot reasonable assume that there is a simple answer ... a number of items we can search on require us to put some serious effort into learning the meaning of the various values and attributes. Because there is only a word or two identifying the values/attributes it is easy to make mistakes. I did that today with respect to "theme" in a Speaking to God search.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 804
Cynthia in Florida | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 5:59 PM

MJ. Smith:

Cynthia in Florida:
Francis asked for a simple answer. 

Francis is also assuming that there is a simple answer. While I have given a reasonably simple answer above, when one wishes to search discourse analysis mixed with morphological meaning mixed with sense information, one cannot reasonable assume that there is a simple answer ... a number of items we can search on require us to put some serious effort into learning the meaning of the various values and attributes. Because there is only a word or two identifying the values/attributes it is easy to make mistakes. I did that today with respect to "theme" in a Speaking to God search.

Which is my point exactly! When the answer is "there is no simple answer," to something that a user should have basic knowledge of which is necessary to use the software in order to gather information from one's own resources,  something is wrong.

i think I'm beating my head against a wall here, and it's starting to really hurt.

i just hope FL sees that there's a problem here, and works toward making Logos more user friendly in this area.  what good is buying all these resources if we can't properly search them.

Cynthia

Romans 8:28-38

Posts 26021
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 7:06 PM

Cynthia in Florida:
i just hope FL sees that there's a problem here, and works toward making Logos more user friendly in this area.

I am confident in Faithlife on both issues ... but my concern is that they don't increase the probability of misinterpretation in the process. At the moment I think the faceted approach that Logos has been extending is a promising approach. Bible Browser export to Search to change logical operators and grouping has possibilities. I'll have to see it's reception across a broader audience to evaluate the morphology grid approach.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 13210
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Sep 24 2016 11:24 PM

Cynthia in Florida:
Francis asked for a simple answer.  I don't think the intent was complexity, but what this research HAS revealed is that there is a problem when the best of the best here cannot explain how to search to even the most desirous learner.

That's not what happened.

Francis did not ask us to "explain how to search". If he had, we would have answered very differently (e.g. step 1, step 2, apply this principle, etc.) He asked what the difference was between searches that use < > and searches that use { }. Specifically he asked, how he should determine which to use.

He's got a simple answer to that question, which he wasn't satisfied with! That's his prerogative, of course, and we were happy to give more depth.

If you'd like to know "how to search", create a new post, and we'll try again! But that's not what this discussion is about.

Posts 3644
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 25 2016 12:43 AM

I am making one last time attempt at getting through although at this point I confess my hopes are not high. 

I do not mean this as criticism but as (hopefully constructive) feedback to you both as MVP, Mark and MJ. You have both taken a turn for a more techie oriented perspective on using logos. The knowledge you have acquired benefit many to be sure. But there are times, like what goes on in this thread, when I feel that you have lost the perspective of what should be reasonably expected of a "normal" user who wants to take advantage of the advertised powerful capabilities of logos. It is a very reasonable question to want a straight answer to what the use of a search syntax term is. This thread is full of elliptical answers, ranging from sending us to links or the help file that do NOT elucidate this question, to telling us "it's okay, you can work around it" (use the context menu, the Bible browser"), to "you need to keep on experimenting with it, practice, practice, practice, for familiarity to develop" (or is it really that one would have memorised at this point what each one is used for?). On top of that, there is quite a bit of deflection: a "simple" answer was given but was not accepted, a reductionist, simplistic answer is being demanded for a powerful feature, etc. Please, step back. This is not good. 

You may know the joke about Microsoft tech support "technically correct but completely useless". I would not say this has been completely useless, but there is something of that joke that rings true of what has been taking place here.

Now, in the thick of these various levels of smokescreens, there have been hints that perhaps the real problem is that these terms were not originally designed to be intelligible to users. The search capabilities they mediate were definitely built for the user, but perhaps the terms themselves were designed more to help programmers keep different needed route for implementation (e.g., using the full index or not) straight for their own in-house purposes. If this is the case, then indeed, the problem is that it is not possible to explain what these terms are without appealing to these under the hood technicalities. It is not that one can get no sense whatsoever of when to use what, but it must remain somewhat blurry because there is not a one-to-one correspondence between user-oriented categories and programming categories. Or is it that even the under the hood the situation is not that tidy, seeking to adjust its definitions on the way as new categories are being added (e.g., add a search capability, it's not a <...> so we put it in {...} like a "miscellaneous" folder)?

I don't claim that the paragraph above is accurate. I am just trying to make sense of what has been written and how this has been handled so far. 

Posts 13210
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Sep 25 2016 1:05 AM

Francis,

Thank you for the feedback.

When I try and see things from your perspective, I do understand your frustration, I really do. I wish it was easier to search in Logos, and have said so in the past. I've also suggested a concrete way in which it could be improved (see above).

You said, "I feel that you have lost the perspective of what should be reasonably expected of a "normal" user who wants to take advantage of the advertised powerful capabilities of Logos".

Please remember that the thread originally asked for an explanation as to why there is a difference between < > searches and { } searches, and what that difference signified. This thread explains that difference, both in simple, generalistic terms, and in moderately technical terms.

I accept that the thread didn't explain the difference in terms you understood. I'm sorry about that. You can take it as a compliment, as it means we thought you understood more than you do :-). Had you been a new user, I think we would have answered differently.

Once we realised you weren't comfortable with words like "datatype" and "datatype reference", we tried to take a step back, and help you to be certain of your understanding of those terms. You'll have to take our word for it for now, but they really are fundamental to understanding this subject. That's not "appealing to under the hood technicalities". It's using building blocks to develop your understanding.

If you asked the question, "Why do some cars use spark plugs, and some cars use glow plugs?", it wouldn't be possible to give a clear answer to that question unless you understood some of the differences between gas (aka petrol) and diesel. That's not a "technicality", it's fundamental to the question. It's the same here.

The good news is that "datatypes" and "datatype references" are easy to understand. Once you've grasped the concepts, everything will fall into place. It really will.

Page 2 of 7 (121 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 5 Next > ... Last » | RSS