Pricing is just crazy complex...

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This post has 63 Replies | 9 Followers

Posts 134
Joel | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Dec 4 2016 4:10 AM

I don't come here often, but I usually do when I try and figure out the pricing to upgrade. This time around this is all that's going through my head:

IT'S TOO COMPLEX

In another forum, someone else said the upgrade pricing was so complex it led to errors on the website. After wandering around the site for 30 minutes this is what I think I read...

  • I have to buy a base package for 7 (to upgrade)
  • I don't need to buy a base package, just Logos Now
  • I do need a base package for Logos Now
  • Logos Now gives me a discount on a package
  • That discount is time limited if I want 15% off
  • The normal discounts are time limited as well
  • The comparison tables and offers differ depending on what page I visit from
  • If I answer 3 simple questions I get even more options

And that's just the beginning.

So the awesome peoples on this forum always say, "If you're confused, do A, B and C." or they say, "Just wait for the free upgrade that will be out next year." but here's the moral of the story-

SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY SIMPLIFY ... oh you get the idea.

Logos, you must be losing customers left, right and centre who can't be bothered navigating this mess. Just sit down over a hot cuppa and rethink it all. You've lost the plot somewhere along the line.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2016 5:42 AM

Hi Joel

I can't answer for Faithlife, but is there something specific we, as fellow users, can help advise on?

Graham

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Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2016 6:34 AM

Graham Criddle:
I can't answer for Faithlife, but is there something specific we, as fellow users, can help advise on?

Also a volunteer fellow user.

Part of the complexity challenge is availability of over 40,000 resources for purchase and/or rent. Thankful for Vyrso now offering 22,292 eBooks. Logos.com has 20,635 products that includes resources and feature sets.

Joel:
SIMPLIFY ... oh you get the idea.

Anything in particular ?

Joel:
I don't come here often, but I usually do when I try and figure out the pricing to upgrade.

Logos 7 upgrade has two parts:

  1. New/expanded Feature Set
  2. Resources

Thankful for Logos Now membership that includes all Features with a caveat: if stop membership, then features go away. Recommend comparing cost of Feature Set with annual membership.

Logos Wiki => Online Only shows four features that are exclusive to Now membership OR Cloud subscription. Alternative to Logos Now membership (with annual renewal) is purchasing a Feature Set or waiting for free Logos 7 engine in Feb 2017 (volunteer guess of included features would be the $ 0.00 pricing)

The second part of upgrading is resources, which can include Logos 7 Libraries and/or expansion bundles. Note: Cloud subscription target customer is new Logos users that want to rent resources and features. Logos Now membership includes library purchase discount plus extended pre-pub purchase guarantee => New Pre-Pub pricing policy plus more => https://www.logos.com/now-members

Concur pricing has complexities: e.g. Logos 7 Base Packages => https://www.logos.com/products/search?Status=Live&Product+Type=Base+Packages&unlocked=no&start=&sort=pricelo&pageSize=60 includes corresponding Feature Set purchase in every price

Thankful for Dynamic Pricing so do not purchase the same resource many times. Also know to check price if purchased separately that can show item(s) on sale.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 11308
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2016 10:24 AM

Just reading Joel's examples brings tears to my eyes ... symbolically.  I'm a Libby veteran and watched this whole thing unfold.  Not exagerating, but I give up pretty quick.

I remember when L7 intro'd, I couldn't figure the choices out. Finally I got FFS and said 'enough'. People said if I got Now first, I'd save money. Call in a refund. My reaction was 'enough'. I'm tired of the marketing confusion.

Yes, Logos is good. (Actually, Libby is best.)  Yes, the programs are both unusual and good. I wish Amazon could do similarly. But the grief Logos Marketing demands is too much. And each time someone bravely asks why so difficult or misleading, the forumites try to give pointers. First, this, then that. Next take something out of the cart. Lastly the package, but not the prepub, and collections are STILL anyone's guess.  I assume they're in LaLa land.

I feel very sorry for the Logos web people ... if like most companies, they're over-whelmed with confusion from Marketing.

EDIT: I just remembered the new Pre-Pub pricing policy. Sign up early for a price break! But sign up really early ...  the price changes if you wait!  And it might be a good price, but maybe not. Just get the package instead before the pre-pub releases (after years of waiting). Probably. But at least Logos won't pull the rug out from under you for 6 months ... after that, all bets are off! Now, frankly, I'm ok with maybe a price-break for early sign ... I didn't actually 'pay' anything and I can back out. But all the little deviations in the road? Pitty the newbie.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2016 11:27 AM

The confusion may cause some euphoria and then customer may become downright crazy, something that may happen in the last minute Christmas shopping: shopping much more than originally intended. In Finnish we have a phrase that describes what happens when you apply full throttle on motorbike and then cannot release it any more, I guess there must be something similar in English. Smile

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

Posts 5495
DIsciple II | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2016 12:20 PM

Joel:

 You've lost the plot somewhere along the line.

Faithlife lost the plot a long time ago. Their marketing leaves so much to be desired in terms clarity of the offer and clarity of what you are actually getting once you get past the marketing fluff. 

Posts 58
Anthony Sims | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Dec 4 2016 11:46 PM

It can definitely get confusing if you've been out of the "game" for a few months/years. It's like the tech world, if you don't stay in it and up to date, coming back after a long hiatus you may be in awe at how much has changed...

But is there anything specific you would like us to help you with for an upgrade? We're all willing to help, but we would need specifics...

Posts 134
Joel | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 6:46 AM

Slow reply here...

So as mentioned in my post, this community is great at offering help. But that's not what this thread is about. It's a wake-up call to the Logos crew to do something about the state of things.

To address the point of 40,000 resources- sure, that's a lot. But explanations of their base packages (Now versus anything else) are explained in the most convoluted way possible. The complexity issue is from the group up. It's not about the number of resources on offer. Surprisingly I think a decent job is done of tabulating that kind of info.

Keep Smiling 4 Jesus, you asked if there was anything in particular that needed simplifying. Yes there is. Everything that is too complex. If you have to take a forum post to explain to me, then it's too complex on the website. Firstly because you've had to explain it, and secondly because if you're successful, you've managed what Logos.com couldn't do over many, many pages.

Anthony, it isn't about being out of the game and not being up to date with what's new (although there is an element of truth to that). It's about confusing, badly written and often contradictory explanations about products, a maze of a website, crazy complex deals, dynamic pricing that doesn't always show you all of your options... etc etc.

Thanks for the offer for help, but I'm okay. If I wanted to figure it out I could. Right now I'll stay with 6 as a statement that the game needs to be changed.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 8:19 AM

Joel:
But that's not what this thread is about. It's a wake-up call to the Logos crew to do something about the state of things.

In which case I recommend emailing Logos (or contacting them directly in some other way) There is no guarantee that anyone from Logos will see this thread here.

Posts 1713
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 9:14 AM

I feel your pain. I get confused too.

I'm very interested in suggestions on how we can improve this.

Our complexity comes from trying to balance so many different issues:

- We want to upgrade the core engine at no cost, so new books can use new features without requiring the user to buy an expensive upgrade to the core. They can buy a newer book and know it'll work, because they can get the engine that supports it.

- We want to avoid having people pay twice for a title. (And there are 100,000+ titles!)

- We do want to bundle content at a discount, and over time 'premium frontlist' titles become 'bundled backlist' content. Yet users want pricing on new bundles to reflect their earlier purchases. (Hence dynamic pricing.)

- Some of our new content requires on-going maintenance / investment. If we sell it once, but have to develop it forever, we'll run out of revenue to support the costs.

- The core product itself (even the 'free core engine') requires a massive ongoing investment just to stay current. Transactional sales without an ongoing subscription OR upgrade revenue don't support this ongoing expense.

- Logos Now confuses many people, because it's a 'bridge' between pure transactional (buy it, use it offline with no-online support or maintenance) and subscription (pay every month forever or lose it) sales models.

- We've been around a long time. We, and long-time customers, are used to one business model. But the future (of all software) is a different market: subscription. Transitioning is hard and messy, and it disrupts both how we are used to doing business and the expectations of existing customers. But if we don't find a way to the future, the business will disappear as we are unable to acquire new customers.

What's your solution? I'd love to hear your ideas!

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 9:15 AM

Pricing definitely is complex.

Two recent examples for me were:

  1. A bundle was offered in a sale, when one of its items was also on sale. When you also have to figure in the bundle discount and dynamic pricing, I gave up on trying to figure out which "percent off" sale was the better deal.
  2. A pricing error on a bundle led FL to decide that the bundle shouldn't have gotten any discount at all. If pricing is too complex for FL to correctly determine when multiple savings come into play, the "fix" shouldn't be to remove one of the product's discounts. (Now that the sale is over, the bundle is sold for the same price as if you bought the items separately.)

I had suggested that FL simplify the discounts, but people like the concept that they're saving money, even if it becomes very difficult to determine how much you actually are saving.

I think the more "discounts" FL can throw into the mix, the bigger the impression that you're getting a good deal, even if the deal isn't as good as it seems.

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 9:30 AM

Bob Pritchett:

What's your solution? I'd love to hear your ideas!

I think the issue is very complex, and there's probably no simple solution, but I'd like to see more accuracy about bundling and savings. The two general things for me are:

  1. Throwing together a bundle for a special sale, and applying a big "sale" discount to it, but never applying a discount to the fact that the books bundle before the sale. Who would buy a collection of 50 or 100 books in the first place, if you only saved a couple of dollars over buying each book individually? Please show the total value of the bundle so we can see if the bundle was a good deal to start with, before the sale.
  2. The total value (versus total cost) number is often wrong in a number of cases. This makes it very difficult to determine how much you actually are saving, especially on a base package where you own some of the items. If you show a column of prices, then show a value at the bottom and call it a total, people reasonably expect that it's a sum of the individual prices.

Thanks for the improvements that are being made, and the willingness to continue to improve pricing and policies! I can't imagine how difficult it must be to be profitable yet competitive, but I'm grateful that you care enough to interact with your customers regarding these issues.

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 9:43 AM

Bob Pritchett:

- Logos Now confuses many people, because it's a 'bridge' between pure transactional (buy it, use it offline with no-online support or maintenance) and subscription (pay every month forever or lose it) sales models.

I don't think the confusion is between buying and subscribing. People can understand that they buy books, and subscribe to features.

I think the real confusion is that LN introduces a member discount (which I appreciate), that blurs the lines as to what percent actually applies to LN, and what percent applies to everyone in general. Two examples are:

  1. Introductory pricing on base packages. Non-members get one discount, LN members get another. But when the introductory pricing ends, LN members get less of a discount, because their introductory discount was "cumulative."
  2. Library expansions. People who bought L7 get X percent off, people who are LN members get Y percent off. Again, it's not applied cumulatively, because the "cumulative" discount is apparently already factored in to the LN discount?

Instead of letting LN members think they save 15% (which isn't in addition to other savings), wouldn't it be less confusing to say they save an additional 5% over the introductory pricing, so we know exactly what our savings are, during as well as after the introductory promotions?

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 1002
Dale E Heath | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 11:33 AM

Bob, we're glad you're taking an interest in this. It's beyond frustrating. It would be nice for FL to set some standards on pricing and sales. Every item, whether single or multiple, should clearly identify the following.

On sale: yes or no.

If yes: what kind of sale, Monthly, Holiday, Package Upgrade, BSM, Logos Now, Madness, Publisher, etc.

For each sale: Beginning & ending dates, parameters of each sale, website where the sale is explained, etc.

Dynamic pricing, yes or no.

Keep what's already posted, like what bundle it's part of, discount %, etc.

There should be one sale page where where a user could find everything on sale that applies to them, depending on their profile: L 7, BSM, LN, etc. The way it is now, I have to check the Christmas sale, the monthly sale, the LN sale, thumb through my BSM and enter the item description, search on Library Expansion, etc. And I need to do that every day, so I don't miss out on anything. It's just nuts. There's a lot more, Dale Heath.

Posts 1216
Matt Hamrick | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 11:58 AM

The ownership model is what us longtime users want and in my case I see this as an opportunity for the next generation because I  plan on leaving the entire library to somebody at my death. That being said I also subscribe to Logos Now so I have both models. I may or may not keep LN in the future, but I will always have the permanent library. I do plan on subscribing to LN as long as I can.

Posts 273
Greg Corbin | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 12:23 PM

Bob Pritchett:

What's your solution? I'd love to hear your ideas!

Bob, thank you for your comments. I believe the overwhelming majority of us users understand the quandry of the future being subscription while maintaining your commitment to ownership customers. Here are my personal thoughts....

1.  As a person with thousands of dollars of investment in Logos (and who uses it every single day), I am concerned that proper steps are taken to ensure the future of the company and the software. While I may not like all of the changes, my biggest single issue is that I am able to use my library in Logos ten years and twenty years down the road.

2.  As for the issue about pricing confusion, I believe that it would benefit everyone if Logos took the "less is more" approach to sales prices and packaging. We have the base backages, bundles, LogosNow, etc. etc. etc. etc. That's alot of dollar figures and content options to digest. Fewer options with clear information would go a long way to clearing up confusion.

3.  If subscription is where you know you have to go for the future, then move more quickly in that direction. Most of us will understand and be OK as long as we don't lose books we have already purchased.

Posts 4181
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 1:39 PM

I would appreciate it if some time and effort could be put into vyrso. I've seen countless sales pass by with no effort to bring them to vyrso... Not to mention the quality of the books.

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PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 1:52 PM

Mattillo:

I would appreciate it if some time and effort could be put into vyrso. I've seen countless sales pass by with no effort to bring them to vyrso... Not to mention the quality of the books.

Vyrso doesn't have crazy complex pricing.

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 11308
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 1:55 PM

I'm pretty sure Joel got left behind in the dust.  The part about presentation (not the programs) ... how a human being is supposed to figure the presentation (not the programs) out.

It reminds me of rural Arkansas decades back ... Mr Walton explaining the pricing confusion in his stores. 'We sell lots of stuff! Lots!  Always changing too! Yep, competitors too!'

He didn't really say that. And he didn't have pricing confusion either. Smart guy.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 3:34 PM

Bob Pritchett:

But if we don't find a way to the future, the business will disappear as we are unable to acquire new customers.

What's your solution? I'd love to hear your ideas!

While I don't have an issue with subscription, I do think it puts undue pressure on Faithlife to get new customers, hence there is a large drive toward new features. Too many "old" existing features are being ignored that are incomplete, broken in some ways, being ignored when optimizations are needed, important bugs affecting usability, etc. And FL cannot current do both, there is currently too much pull for a much smaller base of employees given all the ventures subsidized by Logos/Verbum, and the desire to add as many new features as possible to keep new subs coming in. Fixing/enhancing/correcting/optimizing is just not a priority, and at least for awhile it needs to be.

Logos dearly needs a full release cycle, not a point release, a full release, to revamp/revise/correct. Remove or hide features that aren;t going to be supported, make the UI clean, quick and easy to use. Fix the important BUGS (some of which FL sees as features because they didn't intend to add them at the beginning, the problem is they hamper proper use of the software.)

Subscription is new - some will figure this out - some app firms will not, and the products will die when their bloated feature heavy products are no longer favored because the things real users needed to do their jobs were just ignored too long.

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