Pricing is just crazy complex...

Page 3 of 4 (64 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 Next >
This post has 63 Replies | 9 Followers

Posts 2644
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 11:18 PM

Bob Pritchett:
I did have a meeting a couple weeks ago where we agreed to give Vyrso some temporary resource help, but we'll need higher volume of sales to put much more into it. I'm sorry!

Thanks for the explanation, Bob. Actually, I don't complain about Vyrso as long as the resource in question has at least the same quality as a paper book. I don't mind missing ToC, wrong scripture tagging, and other minor issues, not because I wouldn't like to see them fixed, but because I haven't paid for them.

I can even understand that there isn't any quality control with the automated process, so it's up to us users to do the qc, and bring issues up here in the forum.

However, there have been major issues issues that render a book severely broken, or even totally useless, such as missing pages, missing images, gibberish in the content, title and blurb of another book than that which has actually been delivered.

I'd estimate that only about half of those issues were picked up and fixed.

Frankly, I would personally not invest more than about $5 or $10 in a Vyrso book because I might be wasting money for a broken book.

So maybe sales would increase if the customers can expect to receive a book that has at least the quality of a paper book?

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
Why Amazon sucks: Full background story of my legal dispute with the online giant

Posts 1082
Martin Folley | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Dec 6 2016 11:49 PM

'Pricing os too complex ...'

I would also like to suggest transparency in pricing not just (not necessarily?) simplicity.

FL sometimes has some great deals ... but they are so difficult to find. If I looked at the FL site at the moment I could find many resources at 70, 80, 90% off. When I drill down it turns out that many of them have no sale whatsoever ... what is being offered as a sale is in fact simply that I already own the resources. This is further aggravated by the product page dynamic pricing imply (stating?) that what I already own equates to what you are generously giving back to me in your sale!!! Now I appreciate the policy, and think it right and proper within the context of bible study software ... but it does not have to be that the real discount is hidden by smoke and mirrors. The bottom line is that often I do not even bother looking ... 

2010 17" MBP with High Sierra, iPad4 with iOS10.

Posts 134
Joel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 12:23 AM

So Bob, no problem making this thread flex to answering things put to you :)

I think I can remember back to when complexity was a request by the community, but I believe the request was for more detailed information about packages, not more complexity in terms of the customer journey from website arrival to purchase. In regards to the practice of business sales, while I don't fully disagree with you on that point, can I direct you to a company like Apple that almost never has sales (sometimes they include products or vouchers for seasonal sales)- they retain immovable product prices. Yet, they sell things like crazy because of excellent marketing and a desirable product. As well of course, as solid customer support. Obviously they subscribe to some of what you mention pricing-wise, but they don't rely on quick and dirty price cuts to drive demand.

There is room for that crystal-clear pricing you mentioned. People will always buy if the product is good enough, the benefits (usually emotional) are communicated through compelling advertising and there is a simple path to make the purchase. When the pricing model confuses, or the website gets in the way (etc) you sell a great product short

With https://logos.com/7... here is my journey as a customer looking for what's new in Logos 7. Please compare this to the Bibleworks website that took one click.

- There's a popup on the page (over a video) that distracts me, that I quickly realise I don't need (that can be hard to close because the close button is almost the same colour as the video background). I wonder to myself if no one had tested the page. On an iPhone 7 Plus the popup covers basically the entire page.

- I scan down the page to see what's new. Everything is proceeded with text like, "Starting your study in Logos has never been easier. Jump right into your preferred workflow with customizable Quickstart Layouts." My brain immediately tunes out when I read this. I think, "Yes I know."

- There's text like, "Feature: Courses Tool, Quickstart Layouts" that makes no sense to me. I don't know why this is there. If I watch a video, there's lot of talking about bible study without a lot of dot point information I can grab a hold of. It's obviously a generic video about the software. So where do I go to find new features? It isn't obvious at this point.

- I hit a back button (after accidentally clicking on a link) and another popup appears asking me about deeper bible study. At this point I want to give up. I close it and go forward again.

- I finally find the link to what's new, about 3/4 of the way down the page. It was a fluke, being hard to see.

- Despite saying, "Check out all of the new features in Logos 7" the page is filled with many features from Logos 7, Now and the version I already have. To see what's new, I have to memorise the key at the top of the page (assuming I notice it, which I didn't at first because it was above the "Top New Features" headline) to figure it out.

- Even then I have to hit "Show More" to see all the features for a given topic. When I hit it, I don't know if I have to go back up to the start of the topic to read from the beginning again.

Basically I felt like I needed to work hard to find the information I was after. Popups got in the way. I had to search areas of the website (that were irrelevant to me) carefully for links or I would miss them. Even lumping the old features in with the new/improved/Now features and using a key made things feel confusing in my head.

It should be simple. A clear link to what's new. Show me what's new with Logos 7. Also show me what I would get with Now (since Logos 6 was released, or something). There's no need lump in the basic features. I can see them on the main page. All this doubling up of information across pages makes it hard to solidify what's what in my head- what is in every customer's head. Does this make sense? I hope so. This is just one example of looking for new features. It's even more complex when it comes to making a purchase.

Posts 2644
Jan Krohn | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 2:49 AM

Bob Pritchett:
What's your solution? I'd love to hear your ideas!

Actually, your pricing is not so bad as the initial post suggests.

With base packages, extension packs, feature packs, Logos Now, Logos Cloud and individual titles, Logos is a crazy complex product (or range of products), so why should I expect pricing to be any less complex...?

So my following two suggestions are not related to the actual pricing model:

1. Communication: All the novelties that came with L7 are really great. I love them. I love the idea to split base packages into feature packs and libraries. I have a maths degree, so I could easily grasp the differences to the previous structures, and make use of all the advantages when conducting the purchase. But I can fully understand that many users have been frustrated at the lack of clarity on the Logos website and in the forums about how the price structure works, what's included in which purchase option, in what order to best purchase multiple packages/subscriptions...

2. Bugs: "Value if sold separately" needs to be fixed. "New to you" is needed for each and every bundle by default. etc. etc. etc.

Past IT Consultant. Past Mission Worker. Entrepreneur. Future Seminary Student.
Why Amazon sucks: Full background story of my legal dispute with the online giant

Posts 273
Greg Corbin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 6:33 AM

Bob Pritchett:

I get that if you invested thousands you may have all the books and functionality you need, and may even want the product to 'stop moving' so you can just master the tools you need each day. But if you want us to be here to update things for iOS 14 or Windows 12, we need to find a way to continue revenue.

(This is a bit hypothetical, but a bit real too -- we really are seeing this slowdown of happy users who spend less each year. I'm trying to plan ahead of the trend!)

Bob, this is the issue I was getting at.  I am one of these type of customers. I have a huge library and I am now at a point where my pace of purchasing new resources has slowed down.  As you state, there are more and more of us due to the company and software now being around for a number of years. 

What you are saying is that even if I buy no new resources from Logos for the next year, I am still costing Logos money due to maintenance of the data infrastructure and updating the software and resources - not to mention trying to keep pace with the ever evolving platforms i.e. tablets, smartphones, etc.  Those of us who use Logos expect the software to work, expect our resources to be back in the cloud, expect bugs to get fixed, expect resources to get updated, and expect the apps to work on mobile devices.  None of that is free. It must be paid for by some revenue stream.

Furthermore, when I purchase a car, I retain ownership of the vehicle, but I still must pay money for maintenance and upkeep. Getting my oil changed or new brakes is a small investment that I make because of the very large investment I made in the vehicle and my need to have the vehicle for my use every day. Home owners association fees are another example. They cover costs that protect everyone's investment. I view an annual subscription the same way. For instance, if $100 per year is the number, I would gladly pay that as a small investment in the large investment I have made in the software and my need to use it every day.

As long as I do not have to purchase resources again, I would be fine with a required annual subscription.  I wonder if that might be the model you could move to:  "Logos is $100 per year subscription plus the resources you purchase."   If existing users choose not to pay the subscription, then they haven't lost their books or the software. They would just lose access to the Logos cloud infrastructure and all forthcoming bug fixes and updates. They can continue to use the software for years at no cost. 

Again, as I said in my earlier post, if subscription is where you know things must go, then let's go there sooner rather than later and get it over with. I believe the overwhelming majority of us will understand and gladly participate. Thank you for a great, life and ministry changing product!

Posts 11311
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 7:08 AM

Greg, just adding to your thinking, would you have bought Logos if a $100 per year was a requirement?  Vs Accordance or WordSearch (presumably  Bibleworks)?  

I don't doubt businesses by definition need to stay in business. But the subscription argument isn't vs Amazon Prime, but Logos' direct competitors. I think Phil made the better argument ... Now would be so attractive, you'd prefer it ... normal business thinking.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 3917
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 7:23 AM

Greg Corbin:

As long as I do not have to purchase resources again, I would be fine with a required annual subscription.  I wonder if that might be the model you could move to:  "Logos is $100 per year subscription plus the resources you purchase."   If existing users choose not to pay the subscription, then they haven't lost their books or the software. They would just lose access to the Logos cloud infrastructure and all forthcoming bug fixes and updates. They can continue to use the software for years at no cost.

And what of the users who do upgrade each year, and already subscribe to Logos Now? Or is your $100/yr support contract only for people who don't upgrade and don't subscribe?

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 273
Greg Corbin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 7:37 AM

PetahChristian:

And what of the users who do upgrade each year, and already subscribe to Logos Now? Or is your $100/yr support contract only for people who don't upgrade and don't subscribe?

I was just throwing out an idea and a number for discussions sake. I know there are a host of issues and questions that I cannot even begin to ask, much less answer. Personally, I prefer the ownership model (after all, I have been in that since 2008 when I bought into Logos).  However, I do see Bob's point and the reasons why they are taking the directions that they are.

Posts 273
Greg Corbin | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 7:48 AM

Denise:

Greg, just adding to your thinking, would you have bought Logos if a $100 per year was a requirement?  Vs Accordance or WordSearch (presumably  Bibleworks)?  

I don't doubt businesses by definition need to stay in business. But the subscription argument isn't vs Amazon Prime, but Logos' direct competitors. I think Phil made the better argument ... Now would be so attractive, you'd prefer it ... normal business thinking.

Good point, Denise.  I do completely agree with you that the first issue is value for the dollars. For me as a long time user (since 2008) who has invested thousands of dollars, the continued viability of Logos is of great value to me in addition to any new versions or "bells and whistles." As to whether or not I would have bought into Logos in 2008 if there had been a required subscription, that is a tough answer. Knowing what I know now in terms of the value of Logos, the answer would be "absolutely."  However, I didn't know the value of it (and its value has increased exponentially) when I bought it.

Posts 11311
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 8:47 AM

Martin Folley:

'Pricing is too complex ...'

I would also like to suggest transparency in pricing not just (not necessarily?) simplicity.

FL sometimes has some great deals ... but they are so difficult to find. If I looked at the FL site at the moment I could find many resources at 70, 80, 90% off. When I drill down it turns out that many of them have no sale whatsoever ... what is being offered as a sale is in fact simply that I already own the resources. This is further aggravated by the product page dynamic pricing imply (stating?) that what I already own equates to what you are generously giving back to me in your sale!!! Now I appreciate the policy, and think it right and proper within the context of bible study software ... but it does not have to be that the real discount is hidden by smoke and mirrors. The bottom line is that often I do not even bother looking ... 

Martin ... your specific point is quite good. I don't know if in the Joel corral, but hopefully so.

I still don't know if Logos released the major-update collections. I'm not sure where I'd look (a Joel point). I tried 'Sales' on the Logos.com page. That took me to the featured Essential Collections (or some such). I chose that and it said I was saving a lot. But I knew better ... dynamic pricing.  Unfortunately, there's no 'new to you' section (Safari/ios9/iPad latest) so I paged 20 times to the bottom. There, a lttie funny mark seems to indicate 'new to me' .... there's no explanation.  Good thing I'm a 8 year Logos.com veteran!

Anyway, I gave up. I don't think it was a L7 collection and does't seem to be on sale even though it's on sale.

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 23590
Forum MVP
Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 9:07 AM

Denise:
I still don't know if Logos released the major-update collections.

If you mean the expansion bundles at https://www.logos.com/library-expansions then yesSmile

Posts 11311
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 9:31 AM

Thanks, Graham!!  5 days ago I was out in oil-field-land and no cellular. I'd of had to wait for Logos8!

I googled to see how I'd find it that page. Apparently I'd either need to read the blog on the oil-field day, or the forum thread that day.  Got a be fast.

As it turns out, Logos says packagers only. I'm a FFS-er so maybe Logos8 is indeed the answer!

"God will save his fallen angels and their broken wings He'll mend."

Posts 3917
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 9:46 AM

Denise:

I googled to see how I'd find it that page. Apparently I'd either need to read the blog on the oil-field day, or the forum thread that day.  Got a be fast.

I asked that FL add a link to the Store's (Bundled Products) menu to make it easier to find those bundles.

One of the common problems with any development, web or otherwise, is that when you're on the inside looking out, everything is more intuitive and obvious to you.

The other unfortunate problem is that the site has grown complex, and it's not necessarily a 5-second fix that people can quickly roll out. The home page was partially blank last week, when they tried to roll out the library expansion announcement right before Christmas sale.

So, I think we all missed the announcement on the Logos.com, because it quickly got replaced by the Christmas sale.

The reality is that it's not simple to design a site which makes it easy for people to find what they're looking for, while also supporting multiple browser versions, operating systems, and devices. If it were, we'd all be web designers. Hardly anyone gets it right, and FL isn't in the business of web design in the first place.

Thanks to FL for including Carta and a Hebrew audio bible in Logos 9!

Posts 817
JRS | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 10:49 AM

PetahChristian:
One of the common problems with any development, web or otherwise, is that when you're on the inside looking out, everything is more intuitive and obvious to you.

Very, very true.  

As a retired design engineer, I can tell you with certainty that anyone can design a thing and make it work - but it takes a whole lot of sweat and effort to then make it simple and intuitive for those who are "on the outside looking in".

User Interface is everything whether we are talking about software or website or anything else. 

This whole discussion reminds me of The Story of the [MS Office] Ribbon (the first 3 1/2 minutes summarizes it well).

How blessed is the one whom Thou dost choose, and bring near to Thee(Psa 65:4a)

Posts 353
Virgil Buttram | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 11:27 AM

JRS:

PetahChristian:
One of the common problems with any development, web or otherwise, is that when you're on the inside looking out, everything is more intuitive and obvious to you.

Very, very true.  

As a retired design engineer, I can tell you with certainty that anyone can design a thing and make it work - but it takes a whole lot of sweat and effort to then make it simple and intuitive for those who are "on the outside looking in".

User Interface is everything whether we are talking about software or website or anything else. 

This whole discussion reminds me of The Story of the [MS Office] Ribbon (the first 3 1/2 minutes summarizes it well).

Another factor is that website design is often in the hands of the Marketing department. While it makes sense that those who are charged with establishing, maintaining, and promoting the company's public image (aka Marketing) should be heavily involved,  User Interface design experience is seldom incorporated into website design teams. Thus promotional pop-ups (to use one example in this thread) are given priority over ease of use. Guided, sales-goal-driven site navigation takes precedence over easy-to-locate-and-understand product and pricing information. More digging is required to find definitive information and make apples-to-apples comparisons between products and pricing.

And Faithlife is by no means the most egregious example of this kind of behavior.

Posts 4398
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 6:08 PM

PetahChristian:
Separate pricing factors aren't exactly confusing by themselves.

You're right.

PetahChristian:
But the problem is that prices can include 3 or 4 or 5 separate discounts, which have to be calculated in a particular order, and the exact custom savings is not always broken down, line by line.

For me, it's still fine. For other people, not so much. Hence my advice to Bob, which he didn't comment on.
 (That's ok.)

PetahChristian:
Most people probably don't care to do the math, or even check the math.

Yup.

PetahChristian:
Could Bob put the pricing formulas on a sheet of paper for everyone to see, learn, and understand? Sure.

The question isn't so much whether he can, as whether FL will...and why it hasn't.

PetahChristian:
But I don't want to have to whip out a calculator and figure out the math, just to determine which of two or three products is a better deal. It's difficult to do that, especially when we can make mistakes ourselves. If FL gives 4-5 discounts on an item, they should also show the line-by-line savings.

I almost never use a calculator to figure out the math (which I do pay attention to), and I'm no math wiz, so clearly we are approaching this from different perspectives.

PetahChristian:
Frankly, the whole system seems to be based on inflated base prices, coupled with sales here and there to get a product's pricing down to where it might be reasonable.

Bob has basically written that, it's what nearly all vendors do, and I really don't mind.

PetahChristian:
I would rarely buy a FL resource at regular price, but might buy a resource at 40-50% off, if it's not already available in a bundle (of many things I'd like) for 80-90% off. I'd rather see better everyday prices, than high prices offset by occasional sales, so I don't have to wait for eventual "sales" to get items on my wish list at a better price.

You write that, but if we gathered everyone who thinks like you into a group and then A/B tested them on the two methods, FL would make more money from their present method, and it wouldn't even be close.

“God watches over the affairs of those who truly love him without their worrying about them.” - St. John of the Cross

Posts 2977
Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 9:21 PM

I appreciate this thread and I think it does accurately reflect the perception of many coming to Logos. 

Once one is committed to either the purchase option or the subscription option, it's not too bad. It gets convoluted and confusing when the customer either doesn't know which to choose or is in some limbo state with a little bit of each. I don't know what the solution is. But in general once you realize the dichotomy between purchasing and subscription and what you get in each it isn't too hard. But for a new customer or a casual customer it's quite overwhelming. I think that the solution will sadly result in limiting options for customers. But I think that will ultimately be in everybody's best interest in the long run. The request to simplify is basically a request to limit options. I am generally against this, but I think that it is needed.  

Bob, thank you for engaging here. you know you have the biggest cheerleaders in the world in your customers who all want you to succeed almost as much as you do, if for no other reason than we have thousands (ten thousand +) of dollars invested. Also, once you realize the benefit of Logos  we want to ensure that it is around for others and future generations.  

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 7 2016 11:46 PM

Jacob Hantla:
It gets convoluted and confusing when the customer either doesn't know which to choose or is in some limbo state with a little bit of each. I don't know what the solution is.

Perhaps an explanation about Logos and Verbum appealing to a wide range of customers so have flexibility of "ownership" and "rental" for features and resources.

Jacob Hantla:
Once one is committed to either the purchase option or the subscription option, it's not too bad.

Or a hybrid of "ownership" and "rental".  Potential growth item is "textbook" rental (possibly in partnership with various education places).. Mobile Education subscription could include some temporary license resources that are referenced by course.

Thankful for Comparison web pages that allows Base Packages and Features to be selected for comparison => https://www.logos.com/compare/feature-sets Missing from selection options are Cloud subscription levels and Logos 7 "Free" Engine. Feature comparison could be enhanced to show "What's new in version 7" so possibly four choices in drop down: All, "New to You", "Logos 7", "Logos 7 New to You" (hover pop-up could include release information)

One way to describe (or modify) Logos Now membership is "feature" subscription with resource ownership discount, which includes Online Only features plus ongoing maintenance. Perhaps more Online Only items should require Now membership (with potential extension for syncing stuff between devices, which has ongoing online costs).

When Logos 8 is released, enabling Now members with over two years of active subscription to have a "bonus" of some feature ownership with Now renewal. Encourage renewal plus reduces full feature set price.

Personally still dreaming => Suggestion: "Gem" superset of Base Packages (along with God's calling in my life for work that glorifies Him so could pay for "Gem"; do like larger library for searching and forum discussions).

Bob Pritchett:
While I appreciate our long-time users (a lot!), more and more often I hear from someone who 'invested thousands in my library, so please fix this / help me / etc.' -- but whose last investment was 5+ years ago. (That didn't happen for the first five years...because math. :-) )

Potential business answer is suggesting Now membership for someone requesting "please fix this / help me / etc" whose last investment was many years ago.

Jacob Hantla:
The request to simplify is basically a request to limit options. I am generally against this, but I think that it is needed.

Like flexibility, but web site needs a bit of loving care to simplify information.  Personally have bookmarks for parts of web site. Like idea of a promotions page with summary of active promotions, ideally with end dates.

Jan Krohn:
2. Bugs: "Value if sold separately" needs to be fixed. "New to you" is needed for each and every bundle by default. etc. etc. etc.

+1 Yes for fixing. Dreaming of dynamic pricing improvement so would not need to purchase sale item(s) separately.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 2239
David Thomas | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 8 2016 4:11 PM

Jacob Hantla:

I appreciate this thread and I think it does accurately reflect the perception of many coming to Logos. 

...But for a new customer or a casual customer it's quite overwhelming...

Bob, thank you for engaging here. you know you have the biggest cheerleaders in the world in your customers who all want you to succeed almost as much as you do, if for no other reason than we have thousands (ten thousand +) of dollars invested. Also, once you realize the benefit of Logos  we want to ensure that it is around for others and future generations.  

Just today I helped a co-worker get started in Logos. (I've been a user since L3 and have migrated through several base package configurations and Full Feature upgrades. A month ago I subscribed to Logos Now because I think I understand the terminology with features, resources.)  As a new customer He bought L7 Gold without the Full Feature set and I couldn't get him started. He called customer service and they basically explained "you bought a library but didn't buy the program". I understand the full feature set as an upgrade option (compared to NOW) but didn't realize it was not included when a new customer bought his first base package.

As a recent seminary graduate he was ordained last night and the ordaining church gifted him a download of Logos.

He is doing his big download and first time indexing, I am eager to show him some layouts and searching options tomorrow.

Making Disciples!  Logos Ecosystem = Logos8 on Microsoft Surface Pro 4 (Win10), Android app on tablet, FSB on iPhone, [deprecated] Windows App, Proclaim, Faithlife.com, FaithlifeTV via Connect subscription.

Posts 2977
Forum MVP
Jacob Hantla | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 10 2016 6:18 PM

David Thomas:

  As a new customer He bought L7 Gold without the Full Feature set and I couldn't get him started. He called customer service and they basically explained "you bought a library but didn't buy the program". 

This would be incredibly frustrating and I see how it could be confusing for a new customer. This is the situation that Logos needs to work to remedy and that I hope the forums work to help avoid. 

Jacob Hantla
Pastor/Elder, Grace Bible Church
gbcaz.org

Page 3 of 4 (64 items) < Previous 1 2 3 4 Next > | RSS