Is Logos unsupportive of local church and ministry?

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This post has 55 Replies | 3 Followers

Posts 6418
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 23 2016 4:26 AM

Demons and callings 😁 Well that explains everything 😜👍👌✌️😇

Posts 676
Robert Peters | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 23 2016 7:30 AM

I get frustrated whenever I see one of these posts! I am sure it came out of honest dialog, but so often it from people who do not understand the difference between logos and most other companies. I think  it is important to identify how logos is different from every olive tree and accordance. Logos is a Bible Software company, but its so much more.  This has been a shift since logos 5. Logos does more than just offer a Bible software. They are trying to be the complete package for churches, seminaries, and Christians.  We have the ability to interact our software with so many added features. Most of these features we pay very little to interact with. For example, the Mobile Ed is to bring seminary education and for churches to develop their own ministerial training programs (this is how I see faithlife working and how I am using it). This is something accordance or olive tree does not do. Second, Logos offers numerous free services that it could charge if it saw fit. For example, the faithlife app.  Third, logos is offering cutting edge tools. The problem is that we often want our cake and eat too. if you want quality that Logos provides and we want, it will cost us a little more. I am fine with that. 

Posts 10178
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 23 2016 8:38 AM

Robert, you're just hours from Christmas. Frustrated is not good.

You're perspective presumes a theology. DAL's points make perfect sense, given his theology (beliefs). The OP's points also make sense, if one visits his website, reads his blog, etc.  Me, I laugh too much.

Faithlife is always going to ride the crest of the wave, having one foot in religious, another in secular. Testing new stuff, leaving old stiff unfinished. And charging premium prices to a religion that grew up on spiritualism as its base. Looking for the next big wave.


Posts 6418
DAL | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 23 2016 1:40 PM

Dan Francis:

PetahChristian:
I suppose if people are really unhappy with FL, they can sell off their library, then buy another competitor's product. Personally, I like the program too much, even if the prices are expensive, so I stick with Logos, and just buy less than I'd want.

And I have heard of several people doing just that... I have no plans on leaving FL but I can understand why someone with a small library might go elsewhere. As we have often been reminded Faithlife is a business. As such if it wants to keep its customers it better offer a good product at a decent price. Each one must decide for themselves on the value of FL software.

-Dan

I'm not planning on leaving FL either, but I will buy from others that offer resources not available in Logos or otherwise too expensive to own in Logos. Examples: Rod Mattoon not available in Logos and BST Old Testament too expensive in Logos.

DAL

Posts 2720
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 23 2016 2:53 PM

You can always express disappointment by going to the competition that offers ministers discounts on everything they sell.

Posts 135
Jason Skipper | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 23 2016 4:04 PM

One thing that is overlooked in this discussion, I think, is the value that one gets when going with a pre-pub option. I've done this several times and saved hundreds of dollars.

I know it isn't the same as buying a base package, but it is quite helpful when adding to one's library.

Let us not forget that there is an amazing customer service available to the user. The times that I have called or dealt with Logos online have been very fruitful.

Posts 516
Bobby Terhune | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 23 2016 4:18 PM

One thing I really appreciate about Logos is their commitment to produce theological works from the past. Some here have criticized Logos for charging what they do for public domain works but in community pricing most volumes go for between 2.00 to 4.00 per volume.

I appreciate seeing how past authors have interpreted the text, especially before they became hot button's in todays theological climate.

Posts 1982
Joseph Turner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Dec 23 2016 9:20 PM

Simon Smailus:
I've often found Logos to charge more for a product than Olive tree or Accordance, or just the plain old hard copy even with their discount.

My statement is going to come across the wrong way if you do not read until the end, so please follow me to the end.  Why don't you buy from Olive Tree or Accordance then?  If you believe that their pricing is more fair, then you should do that, BUT obviously you see added benefit in owning those resources in Logos, or you would have already gone to those other companies.  THAT is the reason that they are more.  In general, the resources are better than Accordance for me, and they are absolutely better than the ones in Olive Tree by any standard.  I use all of the above, but I understand that I am paying more for Logos resources because they actually do have added benefits which I value; otherwise, I would have gone with the other companies.  That is the choice you have to make.

Disclaimer:  I hate using messaging, texting, and email for real communication.  If anything that I type to you seems like anything other than humble and respectful, then I have not done a good job typing my thoughts.

Posts 3058
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Dec 24 2016 7:15 AM

scooter:
As someone who is not nor never has been in ministry, I feel I support those receiving an educational discount by the increased prices I pay.

Just to note, but for resources with academic discounts on which FL is paying royalties, their contracts often (always?) allow them to cut down on the royalty when selling to those with academic discounts as well, so a $10 discount is typically cutting less than that out of FL's bottom line.

Posts 246
Claude Brown Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 28 2016 10:41 AM

Denise:

Faithlife is always going to ride the crest of the wave, having one foot in religious, another in secular. Testing new stuff, leaving old stiff unfinished. And charging premium prices to a religion that grew up on spiritualism as its base. Looking for the next big wave.

All I can say is wow wow wow!

Posts 246
Claude Brown Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 28 2016 11:01 AM

Simon Smailus:

I recently enquired whether Logos offers discounts for those in full time ministry, after all they are on the frontline needing to preach sermons and teach their congregations as well as interact with their community. Logos as a resource would be wonderful.

We tend to call frontline ministry on the street ministry but I agree with the points articulated. It seems though that Logos does not claim to be a Christian organization as that would be the church of which we all belong. Having said that I am still grateful to GOD in providing these resources. I teach and share using these resources four times a week with Pastors and teachers in my community who can not afford the expensive tools offered by Faithlife.

I believe that GOD gives grace to all but that His blessings come with instruction. Faithlife having the grace of GOD to produce useful tools provides a blessing to those who receive the tools of Logos. Those who recognize the blessing of GOD are then obligated to share those tools / resources with those in on the street - frontline ministry.

Posts 424
Robert Neely | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Dec 28 2016 11:40 AM

Claude Brown Jr:

Denise:

Faithlife is always going to ride the crest of the wave, having one foot in religious, another in secular. Testing new stuff, leaving old stiff unfinished. And charging premium prices to a religion that grew up on spiritualism as its base. Looking for the next big wave.

All I can say is wow wow wow!

Yes, wow!

Posts 744
Armin | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2016 8:26 AM

I can understand that there are many pastors on very limited budgets who wished they could afford a bigger Logos library to write better sermons but they cannot afford it. It is frustrating for them. If I were in their shoes, I would likely feel the same. 

However, the interesting thing is that the debate about resource costs usually comes up with electronic resources as electronic books are expected by most people to be cheaper than "real" books. In the end they are just bits on a harddisk, so how can they be so expensive? I haven't observed people in Christian bookstores complaining about the high cost of books. Nobody goes into a book store and accuses the owner of making money. In the end, store owners need to pay utilities, employees, maybe rent,...

Bob has to run a business. We all ask for better and faster software, error-free resources, fast support, free support hotlines,...  And we want the software without paying for the upgrade that was developed by a large team of highly competent software developers. We bark at subscriptions because software should be free. How is Bob supposed to pay his employees from whom we expect perfect work?  Logos just cannot compete with Amazon. They have a huge volume that Logos does not have. I recently purchased a resource that was 4-times more expensive in Logos than on Kindle. I bought it from Logos because I want to support them. We expect Bob to support our ministries. What about us supporting Bob's ministry of creating superb Bible software?

If I am honest, I am appalled by the frequently recurring accusations that Bob has to endure here on the forum. It must be hurtful being accused of being secular by those people whom he wants to support. But he always answers gracefully. Thank you Bob. It shows that His spirit is at work in you.

Posts 15805
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2016 10:59 AM

Armin:
Thank you Bob. It shows that His spirit is at work in you.

+1 Yes Thanks for Bob and Faithlife.

Armin:
In the end they are just bits on a harddisk, so how can they be so expensive?

Quality tagging and minimal typographical errors are appreciated albeit wallet has opportunities to Crying

Thankful for appreciation of Faithlife tagging from doing a Personal Book Bible => American Standard Version 1901 - Personal Bible without Chapter and Verse #'s (getting Milestones correct for Text Comparison took many hours)

Thankful for many Bibles now having option to hide display of Chapter and Verse numbers so can focus on contextual flow of thought.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 10558
Forum MVP
Jack Caviness | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2016 11:14 AM

Armin:

Bob has to run a business. We all ask for better and faster software, error-free resources, fast support, free support hotlines,...  And we want the software without paying for the upgrade that was developed by a large team of highly competent software developers. We bark at subscriptions because software should be free. How is Bob supposed to pay his employees from whom we expect perfect work?  Logos just cannot compete with Amazon. They have a huge volume that Logos does not have. I recently purchased a resource that was 4-times more expensive in Logos than on Kindle. I bought it from Logos because I want to support them. We expect Bob to support our ministries. What about us supporting Bob's ministry of creating superb Bible software?

If I am honest, I am appalled by the frequently recurring accusations that Bob has to endure here on the forum. It must be hurtful being accused of being secular by those people whom he wants to support. But he always answers gracefully. Thank you Bob. It shows that His spirit is at work in you.

Superb post, Armin, but I fear entitlement mentality is stronger—and more appealing—than logical thinking.

Posts 3058
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Dec 29 2016 1:57 PM

Simon Smailus:
Is Logos unsupportive of local church and ministry?

No.

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