How do you find all the reference's to David's sins in the Psalms?

Page 1 of 2 (22 items) 1 2 Next >
This post has 21 Replies | 6 Followers

Posts 83
John W | Forum Activity | Posted: Mon, Jun 26 2017 9:01 AM

This is the search I did  ({Speaker <Person Psalmist (Davidic)>} And <Sense = sin (act)>) but it doesn't find them all such as 38:3;18 & 39:1.

Posts 2133
LogosEmployee

John:

This is the search I did  ({Speaker <Person Psalmist (Davidic)>} And <Sense = sin (act)>) but it doesn't find them all such as 38:3;18 & 39:1.

"And" needs to be all capitalized. Otherwise the program thinks your are also searching for the word "and":

{Speaker <Person Psalmist (Davidic)>} AND <Sense = sin (act)>

Posts 83
John W | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 26 2017 9:27 AM

Thanks!; that picked up a lot more. Do you know why it didn't pick up 39:1?

Posts 2133
LogosEmployee

John:

Thanks!; that picked up a lot more. Do you know why it didn't pick up 39:1?

Because that verse doesn't include the word "and". There is an implied AND between all search terms that don't have an explicit operator between them, so your search was effectively trying to do:

{Speaker <Person Psalmist (Davidic)>} AND And AND <Sense = sin (act)>

Posts 83
John W | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 26 2017 2:36 PM

I noticed even with the corrected search it doesn't pick up 39:1. Do you know why?

Posts 25103
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Jun 26 2017 2:50 PM

Ps 39.1 uses the verb <Sense = to sin>.

With respect to what is highlighted, you get a better results with <Sense = sin (act)>, <Sense = to sin> WITHIN {Speaker <Person Psalmist (Davidic)>}

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Posts 640
Michael S. | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 27 2017 7:10 AM

Geez...

I am a relatively intelligent fellow (I think), but this computer programming style search mechanism is horrendous!  I did take a programming class in College, but I cannot for the life of me figure out these search parameters.  I have tried some searches (more simple than what you are trying) and have netted zero results.  I got frustrated and gave up.  I know I am unable to utilize the power of LOGOS, but I dont get the search strings!

Posts 10319
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 27 2017 7:52 AM

Michael, initially I thought 'well, how would you do it differently?' I thought about SQL having good parallels, and fairly easy. Ditto on various programming languages.

And initially, I thought the richness of the available DS description qualifiers might inhibit normal searching .... confusion in parsing the user input.

But then, just looking at Dave's example, my guess is they've made a single poor decision much earlier (if you fixed it, then it significantly simplifies the search syntax).  And effectively locked themselves into forcing the problem on to the user.

Now, they'll do like the syntax search, with graphical confusion.  I think they're pretty much stuck.


Posts 3691
Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 27 2017 7:56 AM

If you have the Psalms Explorer, expand the side bar, select David as author, then "sin" in the themes. There are other themes that may be relevant such as "guilt" and "forgiveness". This is an easier route if you are not comfortable with the search syntax.

If you have the Bible Browser, you can also construct your search there, with the advantage of being able to see the matching verses in the view pane right away. You have other options you can use such as using preaching themes as criteria.

Posts 3313
Mattillo | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 27 2017 9:40 AM

Does anyone know if Logos has a book or help file that lists all the search terms that can be used along with examples?  It would be nice to have something to reference when you want to do these more in-depth searches.  I don't do searches like this enough so I usually forget Sad

Posts 1187
Myke Harbuck | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Jun 27 2017 11:15 AM

Mattillo:

Does anyone know if Logos has a book or help file that lists all the search terms that can be used along with examples?  It would be nice to have something to reference when you want to do these more in-depth searches. 

I recommend this resource.https://www.logos.com/product/51655/verbum-advanced-search-training Helped me tons in my searches!

Also, here's the WIKI link to search info, with examples: https://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP#Milestone 

Myke Harbuck
Lead Pastor, www.ByronCity.Church
Adjunct Professor, Georgia Military College

Posts 18010
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 11 2017 9:57 AM

Dave Hooton:
With respect to what is highlighted, you get a better results with <Sense = sin (act)>, <Sense = to sin> WITHIN {Speaker <Person Psalmist (Davidic)>}

Using OR between senses allows search results to have a different color for each sense:

(<Sense = sin (act)> OR <Sense = to sin>) INTERSECTS {Speaker <Person Psalmist (Davidic)>}

FYI: for this search, INTERSECTS and WITHIN have the same number of results.

Removing = after Sense allows more to be found (changes to ~ default)

(<Sense sin (act)> OR <Sense to sin>) INTERSECTS {Speaker <Person Psalmist (Davidic)>}

Thankful can save Searches to Favorites for future use and reference.

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 758
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 11 2017 10:10 AM

Myke Harbuck:

I recommend this resource.https://www.logos.com/product/51655/verbum-advanced-search-training Helped me tons in my searches!

Also, here's the WIKI link to search info, with examples: https://wiki.logos.com/Search_HELP#Milestone 

Thanks for the links, Myke.  Just these will result in me marking this thread as a Favorite. (And thanks for asking, Mattillo.)

And Denise: I have a Masters degree in computer science. I have worked around the edges of compilers and language parsers since forever.  I came to the same conclusion that you stated; i.e., someone made a bad choice early on and it boxed them in to clunky syntax.

Posts 13369
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 11 2017 10:56 AM

For those struggling to put these searches together, it genuinely isn't difficult, so long as you don't try and learn everything at once, and build incrementally.

This may help: Video Tutorial: How to create complex search criteria

Posts 529
Gordon Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 11 2017 12:51 PM

Out of interest and if you don't mind me asking, John, how many sins attributed by Scripture to David have you been able to find?

I was amused to learn a while ago that some people so revere David that they struggle to accept his all-too-human weaknesses. A number of members of the Knesset (Israeli parliament) threatened to attempt to bring down the government because Shimon Peres dared to suggest that David had moral failings. At least, that is how I recall it. I'm happy - and joyfully expect! - someone on the forum to correct me if I'm wrong. :-)

Blessings on your studies.

Posts 758
David A Egolf | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 11 2017 1:10 PM

Gordon Jones:

Out of interest and if you don't mind me asking, John, how many sins attributed by Scripture to David have you been able to find?

I was amused to learn a while ago that some people so revere David that they struggle to accept his all-too-human weaknesses. A number of members of the Knesset (Israeli parliament) threatened to attempt to bring down the government because Shimon Peres dared to suggest that David had moral failings. At least, that is how I recall it. I'm happy - and joyfully expect! - someone on the forum to correct me if I'm wrong. :-)

Blessings on your studies.

Since you suggested some comments on the actual content found, I think I will throw in a shortcoming which I highly doubt would have been located; i.e., the fact that David had household idols.  This is demonstrated from 1 Sam 19:13. 

I bring this up because of its obscurity.  Several years ago I was reading through this section and decided it was odd that these images would be in his house. I checked my primary commentary and found that it didn't even take note of the discrepancy.  I wondered how many other noteworthy items were being ignored and how many commentaries noted the issue.  I didn't have a good method to find out how many noteworthy items were being ignored, but I could employ Logos to investigate which commentaries commented on this event.

I performed a search on all my commentaries for this passage.  I divided the commentaries into three general categories (1) those that didn't bat an eye as evidenced by providing no information (this was the largest category), (2) those who bothered to explain that these were household "gods" of pagan origin (most of these seemed to be explaining the oddity away in order to absolve David!), (3) the very few which pointed out that the existence of "images" and "idols" in David's household posed a problem. One of the older commentaries actually spent several pages on this subject.

In the context of the whole episode, it appears that Saul had supplied his daughter in order drag David away from God.  Notice that it was Michal who complained when David made a big deal out of bringing the Ark to Jerusalem.

Based on this short study of an obscurity, I adjusted my commentary priorities.  One should note that the Faithlife Study Bible performed on the better side of this research.

So I would suggest that others could use this type of analysis to "tune" up your commentary priorities.  Choose a topic which matters to you.

Part of the reason I made this post was to remind everyone that even fine-tuned Logos search have limitations, unless they actually find this reference in Samuel.

Posts 10319
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 11 2017 1:16 PM

Mark Barnes:

For those struggling to put these searches together, it genuinely isn't difficult, so long as you don't try and learn everything at once, and build incrementally.

This may help: Video Tutorial: How to create complex search criteria

I'm not struggling. I just don't waste the time.  I copy the text into a regular text-editor, where far easier going, doing strange searches.

Not trying to be cute, but there's (at least) 2 classes of users in Logos ... need-ers, and would-benefit-from-ers. Logos wrote to the former, and (in one person's opinion) wasted a large amount of great staff work, relative to the latter.  I really think Logos is crossing some major new Biblical territory. Alone.

Relative to Gordon, Davidic theology (didn't make that up) is the modern verson of Paul's argument concerning upside-down sinning (the more, the better).


Posts 13369
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 11 2017 1:32 PM

Denise:

Not trying to be cute, but there's (at least) 2 classes of users in Logos ... need-ers, and would-benefit-from-ers. Logos wrote to the former, and (in one person's opinion) wasted a large amount of great staff work, relative to the latter.  I really think Logos is crossing some major new Biblical territory. Alone.

I don't agree. What's actually happening is that Logos is creating new datasets before it has necessarily created useful ways of using and finding that data. So we have to bodge a bit to get what we want. But the app will catch up, and the datasets will be refined, and future iterations of Logos will be both more powerful and easier to use as a result.

Posts 529
Gordon Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 11 2017 3:12 PM

David A Egolf:

...I think I will throw in a shortcoming which I highly doubt would have been located; i.e., the fact that David had household idols.  This is demonstrated from 1 Sam 19:13

...I performed a search on all my commentaries for this passage.  I divided the commentaries into three general categories (1) those that didn't bat an eye as evidenced by providing no information (this was the largest category), (2) those who bothered to explain that these were household "gods" of pagan origin (most of these seemed to be explaining the oddity away in order to absolve David!), (3) the very few which pointed out that the existence of "images" and "idols" in David's household posed a problem... 

Yes, David, these are eyebrow-raising matters: the presence of the teraphim in the Scriptural narrative and the relative silence in the commentaries.

The other biblical incident that comes to mind is Genesis 31:34-35 where Rachel, like Michal, is in possession of her father's household gods. Of course, Rachel didn't have her father's permission to take them. Jacob wasn't aware that Rachel had the teraphim with her (v31) and while those teraphim were small enough to hide in a camel's saddle and sit on (v34), it's hard to imagine that David wouldn't have noticed something large enough to resemble human proportions (1 Samuel 19:13).

Thanks for recommending the Faithlife Study Bible which I referred to and which in turn pointed me to an interesting article in the IVP Dictionary of the Old Testament: Pentateuch.

Denise:

Relative to Gordon, Davidic theology (didn't make that up) is the modern verson of Paul's argument concerning upside-down sinning (the more, the better).

Denise, I always find your comments thoughtful and oftentimes pleasantly whimsical.

I'm aware of the general concept of Davidic theology but, if I understand you correctly, there is a subset of Davidic theology using the same name. This subset regards David's person and/or behaviour to be above criticism because (it is believed) God granted David freedom/grace (?) to sin which, as a concept, is akin to the licentious stream of proto-Gnosticism. I don't doubt your knowledge but I don't understand! Could you please point me to an article in a dictionary or journal which explains your comment in more detail?

Denise, David & John, I think that we're touching on one of the biggest challenges inherent in engaging with Scripture: interpretation. What does it say? What does it mean? And, in this case, should or ought Logos 'tag' Michal's teraphim as David's sin? It's remarkable how good a job the Logos boffins do creating the datasets but, clearly, hermeneutics is something we all need to be constantly thinking about.

Thanks to you all for loving God's Word and Logos, and for sharing.

Sorry for the long post! Smile

Posts 25103
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Aug 11 2017 3:57 PM

David A Egolf:
Since you suggested some comments on the actual content found, I think I will throw in a shortcoming which I highly doubt would have been located; i.e., the fact that David had household idols.  This is demonstrated from 1 Sam 19:13. 

David A Egolf:
Part of the reason I made this post was to remind everyone that even fine-tuned Logos search have limitations, unless they actually find this reference in Samuel.

The Search in this thread is specific to the mention of 'sin' by the Davidic Psalmist; not about the nature of the 'sin'. Therefore it would not find 'sin' outside the book of Psalms in a Bible.

David A Egolf:
So I would suggest that others could use this type of analysis to "tune" up your commentary priorities. Choose a topic which matters to you.

This would be a different search entirely; looking at the attribution of 'sin' in relation to a specific act or passage.

Dave
===

Windows 10 & Android 8

Page 1 of 2 (22 items) 1 2 Next > | RSS