Security and Privacy Concern about Logos4 Phonning Home

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Posts 74
Monroe R Miller | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 22 2010 11:40 AM

 akin to calling a plumber "christian" and assigning special or holy characteristics to him or her while fixing ones pipes

Where do you think that holy water comes from?

Rich+

Posts 1228
Ron | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 22 2010 12:02 PM

Matthew C Jones:
Back to my question of ; What happened to personal responsibility? If you give a command to "update now", YOU are the instigator of the synchronization. If a user is intelligent enough to type the command they can not blame the program for following it.

Yes Exactly

Posts 82
James Ng | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 22 2010 12:07 PM

Matthew C Jones:

I've already posted these links but please do read them:
http://www.logos.com/about/sitesecurity
http://www.logos.com/about/privacy

When you first install Logos they give you all thegeneric  bits of data. You are the one who adds personal data to it. It has already been addressed how irresponsible it would be of you to enter personally identifiable information on third parties you may be counseling or praying for. Whether you have a legal obligation or not, you do have an ethical obligation. This is nothing new to the profession. It is each individual's responsibility to meet that standard.

By the same token, please do read the question. This was in regards to Logos calling home. The links you indicate is for the website. Are you suggesting that the program itself also use SSLVPN?

 

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Apr 22 2010 1:34 PM

Monroe R Miller:

 akin to calling a plumber "christian" and assigning special or holy characteristics to him or her while fixing ones pipes

Where do you think that holy water comes from?

Stick out tongue

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 9:49 AM

Jim Towler:

I wish to thank the many that have made useful or interesting comments here. Also, a few have written in ways that make me a little sad, and have not noticed and listened to the key ideas from my earlier comments here. In short, I was commenting about possible creep, and never being sure if OFF means OFF. In fact, it does NOT mean OFF. It just means automatic use is off at most, maybe all times, but who can be sure. Elsewhere, I have suggested maybe Logos4 should not crash, but create an error log and offer to upload it - maybe automatically. But I would want to be able to turn that off too.

However, it is my wish that Logos will add an option so a user can choose to NOT SYNC their personal content back to the Logos servers, yet keep the rest of the application operational.

I have traced the traffic, see http://community.logos.com/forums/t/15929.aspx, and intend to explore blocking all comms to sync.logos.com and hope that the rest of the program will remain fully operational.

I'm not even sure I want to run the application that way, but I want to be able to if I feel so inclined. I sure wont be keeping any "secrets" in the program.

Again, thanks to those that see these Security/Privacy concerns are important to some people.

Please don't misunderstand - I love the Logos4 application and features. I just want to be able to control where my content is.

- Jim

Based on a phone call I had with a Logos employee, you will not be able to purchase any new books for V4.  This is why I added the "do not sync" request on logos.uservoice.com

Posts 8967
RIP
Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 10:01 AM

Jim Towler said - "intend to explore blocking all comms to sync.logos.com and hope that the rest of the program will remain fully operational.

I say - "That is like buying a horse and cutting off his four legs so he won't leave the farm, then trying to plough with him." Indifferent

tom collinge:
Based on a phone call I had with a Logos employee, you will not be able to purchase any new books for V4.  This is why I added the "do not sync" request on logos.uservoice.com

Logos 4 books will only be made available by download in the future. You will either have to go online or freeze your library size and seriously cripple the program. A better setup I would recommend is buying somebody's Version 3 license while you still can.

 

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 10:06 AM

I'm begging to think that offering alternative ideas, concepts, or criticism of Logos is pretty much a wasted activity.  It appears at times that all alternative, other than new ebook resource, are simply absorbed into the web site internet vortex and hurled into another universe.  I fully understand that this is a Logos site and that a high level of enthusiasm for products is the norm.  However, I don't see hardly any response from Logos representatives that validates anything but full support for whatever project or price of said company...but I don't read all the threads all the time. 

After not using Logos products for several years and coming back to work on my D. MIn project I'm getting that I am wasting my resource feeling again.  I wonder to myself if privacy is not an issue what is.  Meditation on this issue is required of me I think.

Posts 264
Michael G. Halpern | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 10:28 AM

I don't frequent the MS or Apple forum sites (if they offer them), but I wonder when the last time Mr. Gates or Mr. Jobs directly responded to their customer comments on a forum.  The Logos Family does quite regularly.  Thank you Pritchett family.

Also, it's OK for others to not care much about what we care about.  We should always have civil exchanges, but we don't all have the same passions about things and the conversations above have almost become personal.  Using terms such as "shocked" or .  We are in a pretty free-market economy, you are welcome to share your concerns/problems/issues/comments/etc. with the powers that be and if you don't like their response (or lack of one), you are also welcome to move on.  This isn't about being so in love with Logos that we are blinded...I regularly make complaints and raise my concerns with the CS staff via telephone.  I'm very outspoken about my issues with the company, but it's my choice whether or not to continue using the program.  I haven't found a company that I regularly do business with that I haven't had an issue or several issues with.  This side of heaven we will just have to "deal" with it to some degree and with the direction of the HS Wink.

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 10:30 AM

Matthew C Jones:
You will either have to go online or freeze your library size and seriously cripple the program. A better setup I would recommend is buying somebody's Version 3 license while you still can.

Matthrew,

Actually, if you read all the posts in detail, the real story is very different to how some have implied here in some of their posts.

The Logos4 program talks to at least 7 or more different web server addresses. Each for different reasons. One for login, another 2+ for Home Page news, another for downloading new resources, another for something else. And one for syncing my personal files back to the Logos servers. It is ONLY this final one I have blocked. The rest are fully operational.

My horse still has four legs, he still ploughs just fine, but I dont let him go out the front gate until I'm with him and say its ok.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 10:34 AM

Matthew C Jones:
Russ White:
I agree that Logos should be "off" when you turn it off.

Back to my question of ; What happened to personal responsibility? If you give a command to "update now", YOU are the instigator of the synchronization. If a user is intelligent enough to type the command they can not blame the program for following it.

Hmmm.... It's always so odd to me when I ask for the tools I need to be personally responsible, and someone comes back with the answer, "what, aren't you personally responsible?" A bit ironic, isn't it? It's a lot like tying a bill to spend $x billion on abortion clinics to a bill to spend $x billion to building new churches, and then saying, "Well, you do want the new churches, don't you? How can you not vote for new churches?"

I accept responsibility for my choices

Even for the unintended consequences? Throughout all of this, you've missed the point about unintended consequences. What you think you're doing isn't always what you're actually doing. Giving people the ability to reduce the chances of there being unintended consequences shouldn't be something that's hard to argue for, if you're all about "personal responsibility."

:-)

Russ

 

 

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 10:37 AM

ReneAtchley:
offering alternative ideas, concepts, or criticism of Logos is pretty much a wasted activity. 

Your comments are an important contribution whether or not they convince others or change things. I have had my thinking changed several times reading opposing posts. You don't seem to have a problem using other online apps like browsers, email servers, Logos forum, and maybe banking?? Logos 4 is intrinsically an online application. To gut it of all internet connectivity would wipe out your home page, stop updates, prevent synching all your computers with each other, and lose your notes, highlighting and layouts. Logos has implemented structural discipline when they switched to download only of new resources. The elimination of third party retail sellers is another plank in the platform. I suppose if we asked the Good Shepherd's sheep what they thought of the fold they are corralled in, some might answer they feel trapped by the fence when in fact the fence is there for their own good. Many people thought Moses wasn't a very good leader in the desert. But a company needs one leader and Bob Pritchett seems to know what he is doing, overall Wink .

Out of almost 3/4 million users my opinion and yours together won't convince Logos to rip the design out of Version 4. There would be nothing usable left.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 29704
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 10:44 AM

ReneAtchley:
However, I don't see hardly any response from Logos representatives that validates anything but full support for whatever project or price of said company...but I don't read all the threads all the time.

Speaking for myself, I am not given to speculation and anxiety but am prone to keeping things calm. Can you guess why all my foster kids were teenagers? As for complaints about Logos, I prefer to take them directly to Logos. However, I think I am sufficiently vocal on what I consider Logos' biggest weaknesses for me - lectionaries, multiple canons (almost complete now), early Biblical manuscripts and Byzantine/Eastern resources.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 325
Rene Atchley | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 10:58 AM

All I wanted from this software was a Bible program.   Not a paradigm breaking post-modern leap in relational usability leading to new levels of Biblical insights based upon ground breaking indexing and search-ability of Logos products.  I am left with a sort of emotional emptiness related to my second dance with this product.  I think my contribution to this thread is or has been exhausted. 

Posts 2964
tom | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 11:02 AM

Matthew C Jones:
You will either have to go online or freeze your library size and seriously cripple the program.

And when this happens, I will be canceling all of my prepubs, and right now I have over $3,000 worth of prepubs orders.

Posts 8967
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Matthew C Jones | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 1:04 PM

Hey guys, I did not invent Logos 4. (Wish I did.) I can't change Logos 4. (Would not if I could.)

I hope you find a way to make good use of the software. Jim Towler can tell everybody how to amputate certain parts of the program. Remember when you reject part of the corpus you will limit your functionality. (I know from personal experience. My right leg was amputated.)  Similar to the Church needing every gift of the Holy Spirit,  Logos 4 needs the sum of it's parts to function properly. If you don't like it's designed purpose, chop away! But I will gratefully and prudently use the software.

Logos 7 Collectors Edition

Posts 81
Ray Timmermans | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 1:05 PM

Mark Barnes:

The definitive information about Logos internet access.

I have tested Logos with Internet=OFF, and confirm that with this setting:

  • Manually running the command "Update Now" does connect to the internet.
  • Manually running the command "Sync Now" does connect to the internet.
  • Going to the home page or changing your preferred Bible does not connect to the internet.

I've been running Logos for quite a while with the internet setting turned off, and monitoring what it does. Apart from me issuing those manual commands, it did not attempt to connect to the internet at all. I see this as perfectly acceptable - indeed, it is good that I can switch the internet connection off then manually over-ride the setting as a one-off with a command.

I'm not sure what all the fuss is about.

PS: I ran the tests with 4.0c beta 4.

 

This thread kind of reminds me of someone picking up the telephone, dialing a number and then showing utter shock at someone on the other end answering and saying "Hello?" If the initiator of this thread doesn't want to make a telephone call, then I suggest don't pick up the receiver and dial. Simple as that!

Posts 1708
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 1:08 PM

ReneAtchley:
However, I don't see hardly any response from Logos representatives that validates anything but full support for whatever project or price of said company...but I don't read all the threads all the time. 

Sorry -- there's just so much forum traffic, and we're so busy doing the stuff we already promised you. :-)

We're hoping to hire someone just to monitor the forums, but haven't had time to do that yet (let alone train them!). We do it as we can, and to save energy and time I sometimes avoid coming back to an argument we've already had thoroughly. (You'll find many explanations already on the forum for why we don't allow you to choose what to update and what not to update. For example, http://community.logos.com/forums/p/7813/62089.aspx#62089)

-- Bob

Posts 1367
JimTowler | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 3:36 PM

Bob Pritchett:

(You'll find many explanations already on the forum for why we don't allow you to choose what to update and what not to update. For example, http://community.logos.com/forums/p/7813/62089.aspx#62089)

Hi Bob - welcome back.

Firstly, this forum thread has never been about wanting selective control of the updates, and I say so on page#1 of this forum (near the bottom of the page).

This topic started about me being concerned that "Use Internet=OFF" does not in fact disable the internet connectivity for the entire application. It does not. In fact it DOES appear to disable all AUTOMATIC attempts. Many responders have totaly failed to userstand, when I used the example of manually running "Update Now" to show it was not disable. It was just an example proving that the cable was NOT unplugged - just idle but still connected. The intent of my original post here, at the top position, was concern that OFF might mean OFF-SOMETIMES-but-with-scope-creep.

Anyway, before the first page on this topic was finished, most of the thread has had the more specific focus on wanting to disable syncing personal content onto the Logos Servers (for backup and state-transfer to other devices under the same user ID.) I fear the blend of those two related but differnet ideas have caused some that read it quickly to get confused.

In a different thread http://community.logos.com/forums/t/15929.aspx, in PC Beta, the focus is more directly on a request to disable the SYNC, but keep the rest of the application operational.

The answer to the orignal question in THIS thread, is that OFF only means automatic use is OFF, but the program will use it the Internet by request.

However, there are some important security and privacy concerns from some of your other customers mixed into the 100 replies here.

Bob, please read this entire thread and the one just above when you have time. I believe there are some important comments. Thanks.

Posts 521
Russ White | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 8:32 PM

Bob Pritchett:
We do it as we can, and to save energy and time I sometimes avoid coming back to an argument we've already had thoroughly. (You'll find many explanations already on the forum for why we don't allow you to choose what to update and what not to update. For example, http://community.logos.com/forums/p/7813/62089.aspx#62089)

-- Bob

I fully understand why you don't want users to pick and choose different parts of the software to synch--I don't necessarily agree with the argument, but I understand it. I deal with Cisco IOS, IOS/XR, and the many variants--trust me, I understand your argument. But... Let's leave that aside for the moment.

There are things users could choose (or not choose) to synch without hurting the running of the software. For instance, a simple checkbox that allows you to synch your prayer list, or your notes, or specific notes files, or even specific layouts--since none of these would impact the running of the program, the argument in the thread above doesn't hold. To use a parallel example, whether or not a user synchs their router configurations to a master server doesn't impact Cisco's support of IOS (in fact, I would be astounded if anyone allowed Cisco to pull their router configurations to a master server).

There are two concerns, and two requests:

1. That the software doesn't really provide any way to work offline completely. We would like to see a way for this to be possible.

2. That the software doesn't allow the user to determine which personal data will and won't be synch'd. I would like to see some way to choose which personal data I put on your servers.

IMHO, both of these are important,worth considering, and very little (if no) trouble from a technical support perspective.

:-)

Russ

Posts 18911
Rosie Perera | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Apr 23 2010 11:02 PM

Russ White:

1. That the software doesn't really provide any way to work offline completely. We would like to see a way for this to be possible.

Start Logos with the Ctrl key held down. You are then taken to the login screen and can choose "Work Offline." This, in conjunction with "Use Internet = NO" should completely prevent Logos from "phoning home."

Russ White:

IMHO, both of these are important,worth considering, and very little (if no) trouble from a technical support perspective.

If you make it possible for users to disable some key feature of the product, some of them will do it, and a certain percentage of those will not read the fine print and will not understand what is really being disabled. Then they'll come crying to Logos if their computer crashes and they lose all their Notes. And it will be a support cost for Logos to give those people (even if it's just a small fraction of the users) some cold comfort over the phone when they are distraught over their years of sermon notes being blown away in one moment. And a certain number of those users will be upset at Logos for NOT backing up their data like it was supposed to, even though they disabled it themselves. And some of those ones will demand their money back. And it's yet another complexifying of the code, so an opportunity for subtle bugs to creep in, thus causing more potential user support calls. So none of this is easy for Logos to handle.

I'm not saying they shouldn't do it, if enough people want it. I'm just saying don't be so quick to assume it would be "very little (if no) trouble" for them. I'm sure there are costs associated with this suggestion, beyond the development time to implement it.

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