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This post has 389 Replies | 32 Followers

Posts 30
m wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 3:01 PM

scooter:

m wilson:
Their model requires that you own the books, what they are saying is that the cost of support and new features is outpaced by the income.

m, I figure U mean the reverse of this

No, I did mean what I wrote, but let me clarify.

Their model has been and still is selling content, i.e. books. FL is Kindle on steroids with a very focused library. They can never rent all their titles, especially in onsies and twosies. Renting content only makes sense for them if it is in large bundles, but those will be limited in scope because of all the complications of publisher's demands etc. People don't even want to buy bigger bundles, let alone rent them. That's why they apparently weren't doing so well with Cloud.

The difference, however, between Kindle and FL is that Kindle gives a simple app away and uses it to drive content sales. 

FL has a much more expensive and complicated app/SW. As Bob made clear, they simply cannot afford to really give that away anymore.  As he explained, they made their bones on selling books. So that is their profit model, selling books.

Because they want to ever grow the business, they need new revenue streams. So they add features and try new avenues, but they then mix those in with the foundational business of selling books and things get screwy. 

I actually think Bob is close to a good model and most people would be happy if:

a. One can buy perpetual licenses as before for both books and SW/features

b. People can subscribe to rent books and features. (But make no mistake, they don't want just renters. They want renters to buy books too)

c. People can subscribe to SW/features only. (This is what most SaaS is about) 

The problem is category (c). These are the folks who have large libraries and will not bring in a lot of money to FL in the near future as they are near saturated in their book buying. They just want to be able to keep up with the SW developments. That's what LN looked like at $100/yr.

What I hear Bob saying is that FL really needs to charge more for that. But instead of offering (c) a modestly increased price, they packaged it all up into things that would almost only appeal to new customers at much higher prices. But I think that is simply a reflection of the truth that they must continue to grow and that past money spent does not help them with that .They always need new customers who will then by large libraries. 

Of course, they through in a bunch of free "floor mats" (as Bob said) thinking that should win people over. Just seems like they are trying to be too much for too many people, and unforntunately that will likely never end, because they must continually "grow the business." 

But hey, I use their stuff and want them to succeed, so I wish them all the best.     

 

 

  

Posts 246
Claude Brown Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 3:13 PM

Okay have read enough. Just need to know one more thing will Logos 8 also cone with an essentials feature only only purchase option?

Posts 486
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 3:14 PM

JT (alabama24):

Bootjack:

Too late. I've bought L7 but didn't pay anywhere close to the 400.00 plus price mentioned earlier! :-) 

The ”Full Feature Set” is dynamically priced. If you have NEVER purchased a base package with data sets, your price is $600. Dynamic pricing brings that down. 

I have Silver so that's why I got the wee price that I did. Apparently this is what you mean by Dynamic pricing. 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 486
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 3:24 PM

Rob Lambert:

Bootjack:

Rob, you say "The cost to purchase the full feature set empowering logos 7 is $429.21." I take it that you're referring to a present customer and not a new one, correct? Can you clarify that a bit? Is it a Logos 4, 5 or 6 user who you have in mind or something else.

Mr. Bootjack,

I own a lot of books (still paying for them) and rent the feature set through Logos Now.  I got a quote to buy the feature set for Logos 7 and its related data sets for the price of $429.21.  I took a screenshot but can't upload it. 

Bottom line, full feature set of Logos 7 (not including Lemma in Passage search or any of the interlinear bibles included with Logos Now....Just Logos 7 feature set.... 

Hope this helps.

Rob

I should have mention (if I indeed hadn't) that I used my coupon and thus of course got it for the price I did. Please forgive mine ignorance but to get the Lemma in Passage, that is not one thing one can buy, correct? 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 3217
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 3:31 PM

Bootjack:
Please forgive mine ignorance but to get the Lemma in Passage, that is not one thing one can buy, correct? 

Not yet. We’ll have to wait until L8 to see which features are subscriber-only, and which are included in a feature set.

Posts 486
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 3:35 PM

Thank you for making that clear. Appreciated! 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 2824
Michael Childs | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 3:54 PM

I have nothing but the highest regard and affection for Mr. Bob, and the entire Logos company.  I have been with Logos practically from the get - go.  Best decision that I ever made was to build my library in Logos.

I am one of those who has already bought most of the big packages of books that I really need.  And I have little interest in new "features" and tools.  So, I am becoming of less interest to the company.

To get me to make a major purchase, it would take new sets of books that I truly want.  Those books may not be popular enough to justify Faithlife publishing them.  (For example, I would make a major purchase to acquire the scholarly set of Wesley's Works that Abingdon has been publishing for about 20 years now.  But, despite my pleas for years, Logos has not seriously tried to publish the set.)

But I am not an unhappy Logos customer.  Quite the opposite.  I am a very thankful Logos customer.  I use my Logos library daily.   I would make the same choice again, and I recommend Logos to young seminary students frequently.  When Logos 8 comes along, I will no doubt upgrade - make that "little doubt".  If Faithlife's future business model doesn't fit me, I am still a happy customer.

"In all cases, the Church is to be judged by the Scripture, not the Scripture by the Church," John Wesley

Posts 486
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 4:08 PM

Good night, I have just receive another coupon for the same amount as last time. Best get this spent before I get another email telling me if I use it, I'll be arrested. :-)

I realize this is but a mistake from the mainframes at Logos!  Smile

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 27675
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 4:11 PM

Bootjack:

I have Silver so that's why I got the wee price that I did. Apparently this is what you mean by Dynamic pricing. 

Not quite. $600 is for a brand new user. Presumably you have purchase base packages along the way, right? If so, you would have acquired features and datasets along the way, (I.e. in L4, L5, L6). The price is “dynamic “ because it calculates those previous purchases into the cost for you. Smile

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 486
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 4:14 PM

I think you're closer to the truth than not, JT.  :-) 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 9090
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 4:14 PM

James Taylor:

Bob Pritchett:
If you didn't get an email, ... contact us. We'll make it right.

I hadn't received the email so I contacted customer service yesterday specifically asking about an email containing a coupon which I had read about on the forums, and 30 minutes later I received a generic customer service reply:

...

There was no coupon or anything about credits or sales or special offers specific to me (and I would think I fall in the "handful of customers" who have spent over $20,000 on this investment over the last 7 or 8 years). And I will say I have been very impressed with Logos and Faithlife, but I would like to receive this email/coupon you've referred to. I just don't know who else to contact.

James, no one has responded to you so let me just ask if you were a Logos Now subscriber. My understanding is that the emails and coupons only went out to Logos Now subscribers and the amount was based on how long they had subscribed.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 3217
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 4:24 PM
Bootjack:
Good night, I have just receive another coupon for the same amount as last time.

I think you'll find that the code can only be used once. Unless they sent out a different voucher code, the system won't let you use the original code a second time.

Posts 486
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 4:28 PM

This has the same code. I have an idea if I tried using this again, Logos would unleash a whiplash of lethal viruses into my computer!  :-)

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 24921
Forum MVP
Dave Hooton | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 4:29 PM

Bob Pritchett:

How Logos Now Failed

Access to new features early, as they were released, was just a little part of what we imagined Logos Now would be, which we hoped would make it more attractive to transaction users, helping them transition to a subscription world.

It worked too well, and the tail began to wag the dog. Logos Cloud didn't mature quickly enough (because it needed a stronger web app, which wasn't yet there) and Logos Now's 'new features every six weeks started to feel like its primary benefit.

New customers, who should have only needed to choose between "Buy" or "Subscribe" were regularly being sent into a very confusing, and frustrating, pitch to both buy AND subscribe. Pure subscription wasn't attractive enough (without larger libraries and a pure-web solution), but just buying and owning felt 'left out' because Logos Now offered 'new stuff without the wait.'

Worse, as the tail wagged the dog, Logos Now subscribers (who turned out to vastly outnumber Logos Cloud subscribers) began seeing the product's entire value as the regular release of new features. (Which was not the original intention.)

And trying to make a new feature every six weeks leads to smaller, less significant features just to 'check the box'. It hurts our ability to dedicate team energy to bigger features and changes that might take months to develop, but which deliver more value. 

This argument fails to convince because expectation was created by the six week release cycle and the feature releases throughout the Logos 6 life cycle. "New features sooner" was promoted by Faithlife and NOW users became disappointed by the sparse features of Logos 7 releases. It now appears that FL will revert to the previous model  by hitting users with features in Logos 8 whilst introducing a 'pure' subscription model with some extra, but unwanted, features. If NOW users apparently didn't appreciate the off-cycle dataset releases perhaps the dog should have packaged them more appropriately (and it appears that it is now called CONNECT). That NOW succeeded beyond CLOUD should indicate why CLOUD's successor hasn't been warmly greeted. It also appears that VERBUM NOW suits the new marketing model, but this hasn't been justified...

Users have been given  9-12 months + Logos 8 to consider their options because the marketing strategy needed that much time ("Let's scrap Logos NOW, keep Verbum NOW and hike the subscriptions"Stick out tongue). That seems fair!

Dave
===

Windows & Android

Posts 1928
Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 4:39 PM

m wilson:
The problem is category (c). These are the folks who have large libraries and will not bring in a lot of money to FL in the near future as they are near saturated in their book buying. They just want to be able to keep up with the SW developments. That's what LN looked like at $100/yr.

Yup! Well said.

I wouldn't mind adding some more journals (who can have too any journals?!?) and there's always the odd commentary set or so that I wouldn't mind adding, but building my library up over 17+ years, it's pretty well rounded out. So Logos Now was a brilliant way to support the ongoing development of the software, license some feature sets and get some early previews of what was coming in the next version of software (though this was the least interesting to me)

The trouble with what is offered now is that it is double to get the same thing. Plus there's a whole bunch of stuff thrown in that didn't attract me to Logos in the first place. Don't get me wrong, some people probably really need and can use the web app, social networking or TV, but that's not what I need or want. 

So effectively this will likely force me back into the transactional model to pay for everything. This is too bad, because I was willing to pay a subscription to give Logos some cash flow in between major upgrades.

Posts 20
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 5:02 PM

The online dating business idea sounds more appealing now than this subscription based software service.  LoL!

I've been thinking (since last year) about building my digital library with another company when Logos 8 rolls out.

PS: Apple had decided to offer new features less frequently so that they can focus more on software Quality.  Why can't Faithlife do the same?

Posts 2829
Don Awalt | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 5:18 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Worse, as the tail wagged the dog, Logos Now subscribers (who turned out to vastly outnumber Logos Cloud subscribers) began seeing the product's entire value as the regular release of new features. (Which was not the original intention.)

This is what irks me, the bolded part above - so you know darn well what customers want, but instead of finding a way to give that to them in Phase 2 of Logos Now, profitably, you hide what customers want embedded in a lot of unwanted stuff - betting customers will grumble and subscribe to what they don't want to get what they want. That is NOT customer focused and I won't be subscribing or purchasing until there is some sensitivity to what I want to buy/subscribe to.

Posts 20
David Bailey | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 6:26 PM

William Gabriel:

Don't forget that you're on a forum of exegetes. Every word you say will get dissected for meaning, context and inference. Ironically, your software helped train us for that in part...

That made me chuckle.  Smile

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 7:03 PM

JT (alabama24):
so give me an example. L8 would cost...???

I don't know. That's ups to the needs of Logos to ultimately determine. But for me the sweet spot is $75-$150 or so, depending on the feature set and how the upgrade makes my life easier.

Posts 3044
SineNomine | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 7:07 PM

Dave Hooton:
Users have been given  9-12 months + Logos 8 to consider their options because the marketing strategy needed that much time ("Let's scrap Logos NOW, keep Verbum NOW and hike the subscriptions"Stick out tongue). That seems fair!

I must admit, as a Verbum Now subscriber, that it works for me! Stick out tongue

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