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This post has 389 Replies | 32 Followers

Posts 486
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:54 PM

Joe Mayden:

here is my question.  I doubt I will buy any more books.  I am a Now Subscriber and have been migrated.  I am told that when my current contract for Now expires, I will be charged $200 for the NEW DEAL - much of what I don't currently use or want, videos, courses, graphics.  They will give me a $200 credit for Logos 8.  

How much will the Logos 8 cost me?  Someone who has been a user since 1994 and has all the books he will ever need, over 4,000 volumes?  Will my Logos 8 Gold Reformed or whatever you call it cost me more than the $200 credit?

Could someone answer that question?

Thanks, 

I'm going to join the chorus as to your question and try to put it to music ... which is "I don't know because I've been asking that question and can't get a solid reply." The music would be the same used on the X-Files. 

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 8:57 PM

Bootjack:
What scares me in this post as in your previous one, is it seems to be saying, if we don't pay for the engine in the next release, our Logos 6 or Logos 7 is not going to kick into gear (work).Surely I am reading this wrong. I know I need sleep and I'm hoping I am not reading this correctly.  :-) 

Sorry for not explaining better. I'm saying only those who want to upgrade their engine should have to pay for it. If you don't want a new base package and the feature set for Logos 8 doesn't interest you, then you don't have to pay anything. You keep Logos 6 or 7 for as long as you can keep it running on your computer and operating system.

Its just like how all other software works. I'm still running Adobe Acrobat Pro 9 on my brand new 2017 iMac with the latest OSX because I don't have the need to upgrade the program because it still works and does everything I need PDF software to do.

But I recently upgraded my VMware Fusion software since the version I had wouldn't work when I bought my iMac last year. As long as I stayed on my old computer with El Capitan, it worked fine. But since it was several years old, and is a complete piece of software that has to work closely with operating systems, the older version simply wasn't built to work with Apple's latest and I needed to upgrade if I wanted access to my Virtual Machines.

Thats just the cost of digital.

Posts 486
Bootjack | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:04 PM

You'll notice I scurffed my question to you, Greg. Just before I got your reply, I posted it.Then I realized you beat me to the draw and answered it. 

Anyway, now you've just given me reason to lay my head on the pillow with ease and not fearing of having a stroke. I see what you're saying now. Thanks for the clarification.

ASUS Rogue / 500 GB Samsung SSD / 500 GB HD / 16 Gigs of RAM/ Logos 8 Full Feature Set / Faithlife Connect Essentials 

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:05 PM

Joe Mayden:
Could someone answer that question?

Joe, 

Only Logos can answer that question. But based off of previous updates, that $200 credit probably won't cover anything other than the most basic upgrade package if even that. It certainly won't cover Logos 8 Gold Reformed, at least for most users.

(But due to Dynamic Pricing, people's mileage may vary. Thats why its complicated to say otherwise. Logos 8 Gold Reformed will probably cost less for the person with 10,000 resources than it does for the one with 4,000. On the other hand, Logos builds into their base packages the cost of development of Logos 8 and the new feature sets, so it'd still cost someone money even if they already had all the resources offered.)

If Logos gave you $200 credit for using Logos Now, then that probably means they're giving you credit towards the new features Logos 8 will have, and just those things, since with Now you've basically already paid for them.

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:07 PM
Bootjack:

You'll notice I scurffed my question to you, Greg. Just before I got your reply, I posted it.Then I realized you beat me to the draw and answered it. 

Anyway, now you've just given me reason to lay my head on the pillow with ease and not fearing of having a stroke. I see what you're saying now. Thanks for the clarification.

I saw that. No problem at all! I'm glad I clarified things for you. Have a good rest, and take comfort in knowing I don't run Logos!
Posts 20
Sojourner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:15 PM

Greg Masone:
Thats just the cost of digital.

No, it isn't. There are other companies besides VMWare and Adobe. There are successful companies that provide free products: GitLab, Nextcloud, Owncloud, RedHat (provides Fedora), Cannonical (provides Ubuntu), FreeNAS, Valve (provides Steam), and numerous browsers. Yes, historically you buy each version, but it is not the only successful market as I hope you see.

Posts 1107
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:15 PM

Greg Masone:

Sean:
FaithLife isn't going to start charging for engine updates.

Bob responded to me a few pages back and said its not off the table.

Sorry, I missed that. That'd be a big change but not any worse than this one has been.

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:24 PM
Matthew Cillo:

Greg Masone:
Thats just the cost of digital.

No, it isn't. There are other companies besides VMWare and Adobe. There are successful companies that provide free products: GitLab, Nextcloud, Owncloud, RedHat (provides Fedora), Cannonical (provides Ubuntu), FreeNAS, Valve (provides Steam), and numerous browsers. Yes, historically you buy each version, but it is not the only successful market as I hope you see.

Those were just my examples since they're the best known. And I'm not saying other companies aren't doing what Logos has been doing. I mean, Logos' has been successful for the past 25 years. This isn't a testament against Logos or the business model, but more on the subject that the market is changing. And not just the market, but Logos' specific market. The books just aren't paying the bills. And if subscription models don't work (1.5% income generation isn't helpful, and based off of this thread, that number might not change much with the new collection of subscriptions), then other sources of revenue need to be explored.
Posts 20
Sojourner | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 9:47 PM

Greg Masone:
The books just aren't paying the bills. And if subscription models don't work (1.5% income generation isn't helpful, and based off of this thread, that number might not change much with the new collection of subscriptions), then other sources of revenue need to be explored.

Which was the point of my previous comment concerning opensource development and charging for enterprise support. These are ways of gaining money and lowering support costs. Creating a subscription model that encourages buying into content, rather than penalizing is another. BTW, I like the concept behind this new subscription model, even if I disagree with some of the content choices. It is easy to pitch to friends and family.

Instead, I would encourage FL to develop large scale solutions for churches and schools (not just seminaries, the note taking capabilities of Logos are awesome.) Then they can charge seat licenses and support. 

Posts 132
LogosEmployee
Chris duMond (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:23 PM

Beloved:
The representative informed me that Verbum Now will be transitioned to FLC

Hi Beloved, I'm sorry you were given incorrect information. Verbum Now is not being transitioned into Faithlife Connect, nor do we have any current plans of doing that. I've asked our Customer Service Manager to reach out to you and help you get into Verbum Now, and to inform the rest of the Customer Service team that Verbum Now is an option for customers. Thanks.

Posts 30
m wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:33 PM

Mark Johnson:
He does not use Logos and said that his scholar do not use because it cannot do the kind advanced search functions that they need.

Exactly, there are other systems that do a far better/faster job and are far greater value if you want to just work deeply with Original languages/Scripture. What Logos excels at, and the reason I'm in it, is for the vast, well tagged and integrated, content library. That is their niche. 

   

Posts 1107
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:36 PM

Chris duMond:
Hi Beloved, I'm sorry you were given incorrect information. Verbum Now is not being transitioned into Faithlife Connect, nor do we have any current plans of doing that. I've asked our Customer Service Manager to reach out to you and help you get into Verbum Now, and to inform the rest of the Customer Service team that Verbum Now is an option for customers. Thanks.

If Verbum Now can remain, why can't Logos Now? I guess I'm in the minority among subscribers, but I really liked all the preview books that came with Logos Now--sometimes I went on month-long reading binges. I don't think they're the same in Verbum, are they? If they're not, then it's not nearly as valuable for me as LN was. If they are the same--then again, why can't Logos Now continue? Why the silliness of having to switch over?

This is infuriating. It's almost like you're purposely aiming for a "lose-lose" situation for everyone.

Posts 30
m wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 10:48 PM

Greg Masone:
The books just aren't paying the bills.

But from what Bob said, they have been and still are paying the bills. What is changing is that the FL wants more income to grow. That is different. That is why I agree with your assessment that they should just provide a free engine and then charge for additional features.

Part of the problem seems to be that FL has spoiled a lot of us with free stuff and a LN price that was too low. Read the threads and I think you'll see that throwing people enough bones will pacify them and help them make the transition to the sub. model that must ultimately come.   

Posts 1022
Keith Pang | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 11:46 PM

Well, it’s all good we shall see what happens. I hope everything I said was not taken in a negative way. I’m sorry if it did. 

Shalom, in Christ, Keith. Check out my music www.soundcloud.com/kpang808

Posts 496
Greg Masone | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 1:21 AM

m wilson:
But from what Bob said, they have been and still are paying the bills. What is changing is that the FL wants more income to grow.

HIs first reply on the second page seems to suggest Logos Now was an effort to grow revenue to continue to cover the costs of development for a user-base expecting continued development while purchasing less books. Implicit in this idea is the notion that current book revenue is declining, either due to competition or changing buyer habits (or both).

For Logos, aside from getting new customers, the challenge is getting people who supported the company when the industry was still new to support it now that its matured. Take a look at the video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=9&v=mEHvs_PGbqs

When was the last time we saw such excitement on release day? Nearly ten years later I still remember the excitement I felt seeing that commentary released on Logos. And that wasn't the only one. Every day I'd go to the Pre-pub page to see what Logos was going to offer next. I remember with excitement seeing Zondervan come on board, finally, and add their books to Logos.

It was exciting because it was new and pioneering work in the digital bible industry. Low hanging fruit was readily available and ripe for the picking because a huge base wanted and needed these things. But then those things were made and we all bought them and then eventually 2nd and 3rd tier resources came down the pipeline, and at least for me, caused me to lose interest in buying more and more.

And like a nation with more retirees than wage-earners, more and more resources had to be diverted to keep the established base happy while they paid less and less into the coffers and the market changed.

But we'll see what happens. I do hope Logos is able to be successful in generating new income, and given their resiliency so far, I think that will happen. 

Posts 30
m wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 1:51 AM

Greg Masone:
Implicit in this idea is the notion that current book revenue is declining, either due to competition or changing buyer habits (or both).

Your observations are quite astute and important reminders of the diminishing returns that makes growing a business like this very difficult. That's why I  don't think the business model is sustainable in the long run and why we are all actually leasing anyway. But I'm okay with that, as I don't expect to need many of these resources twenty years from now.  

Posts 8948
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 4:32 AM

Joe Mayden:

How much will the Logos 8 cost me?  Someone who has been a user since 1994 and has all the books he will ever need, over 4,000 volumes?  Will my Logos 8 Gold Reformed or whatever you call it cost me more than the $200 credit?

Could someone answer that question?

I see that no one has responded to your question yet. Of course we don't know what the cost for Logos 8 Gold will be in the end and that will vary because of dynamic pricing which is based on what books you already own. But let's look at what the prices were when they were introduced when Logos 7 was first launched and that might give you a good idea.

The regular price for Logos 7 Gold was $1,549.99. But since you owned Logos 6 Gold and would take advantage of the 20% off sale they ran at the beginning and thus your Dynamic Price drops to just $490.52.

Of course there are other factors like the cost of feature sets but what I have written should give you a basic idea of what things might be like for Logos 8.

I hope that helps.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 9
Chris Malone | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 4:54 AM

Thanks for the explanation. I was happy to receive an email yesterday with a generous coupon code that can be used for either Faithlife Connect or Logos 8 when it is released. 

Unless I'm wrong, as a customer of Logos since version 4 who has spent more money than I care to admit ( :-) ), I will be able to continue using my desktop software as always. I can use my apps (even the online app). I can choose whether to upgrade to Logos 8 or not. I can choose to continue my Faithlife Connect subscription when my annual subscription (rolled over from Logos Now) ends in November. You are not taking away my books. You are not taking away datasets and features that I own. You are giving me a coupon to purchase more datasets or upgrades or subscriptions. Nothing that I have purchased is going away. And I choose whether to jump into the new product or not.

All I can say is, I find value in the Logos product. I will continue to choose to pay for things in which I find value, understanding that valuable things cost money to produce and the company producing them has to earn a profit in order to stay in business - even a Christian company.

Thanks for interacting here and answering questions. That's classy.

Posts 676
Robert Peters | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 5:24 AM

Bob, I have a question concerning connect, since this is a subscription model is there a limit to the number of users who can use one subscription?  

Posts 990
John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Feb 24 2018 5:28 AM

I like the idea of rental libraries that are like for like the base packages and would think it a good idea for someone else...

For the likes of me... surely all that is missing from this proposition is dynamic pricing...

Can't you just make our licenses unlock a rental price which puts us on the linked level at only $9.99 a month or $99 a year?

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

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