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This post has 389 Replies | 32 Followers

Posts 205
Marshall Harrison | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 1 2018 1:11 PM

Matthew L. Pilch:

Brother, I fear you may have forgotten (or simply glossed over) the "why" behind the initial implementation of Logos. You hinted at it in your long response but quickly moved on to other things. I have been with Logos since its Libronix days (and physical backup CDs of our entire libraries), making my first purchase from you roughly around 2003 (11 years after you created it - yes, I know). 

The point that I'm trying to make is this. The reason that I got on board back then and continued to invest was because I believed that there was a future to digital tech, and lo! and behold! I was right (one of the few things I have ever gotten right). Back then, you weren't trying to get perpetual customers forever; you were trying to convince people like me and others that we should build digital libraries and not physical libraries - or at least consider supplementing our physical libraries. Now let's stop and think about that model - which, by the way, worked just fine: If I am investing in a physical library am I always going to be adding to it at the same rate? Answer: no. Not at all! You wouldn't expect that. If one is a student for life, the library will keep growing bit by bit for life. The beauty of the physical library is that once you retire are facing death, you can will your library on to your family, or to a church. I know that you have worked a little bit toward that (though it is far from satisfactory, seeing that it stops after one gifting). I don't want to digress too much, but the point is that there are many of us (I don't really know how big your customer base is, but I know quite a few people in a similar boat to me) who have literally spent, not thousands of dollars, but tens of thousands on Logos - I know that I have. And all of that has been without a subscription that I don't need or want. 

Do you know what I want? I want my library. The amount of money that I've spent, I would think that you would be happy that it has funded you to this point. But let us reason together on this, you can't expect me to continue to spend at rates that I once did when I was initially building my library, can you?! If a new volume is added to a set that I like, I buy the single volume. These days I'm very picky about what I buy - mostly monographs anymore. But I was just the intended demographic of your initial startup. Don't throw me and everybody like me under the bus because you don't have the revenue stream that you think you need. We want our libraries and we will continue to invest in them. What you need to do is not to dream up new ways to get us to pay you more when we have invested thousands, if not more; no, you need to ask yourself if that is still your model - attracting library builders - and figure out how to get more.

Maybe the building that houses your office and staff doesn't need continual upgrades; to be bigger and better every couple of years. Maybe it's time to recall that this initial project was borne out of a desire to help those in the ministry, not necessarily to make you wealthy. Listen, I don't begrudge you the profits that you have made from my purchases or anyone else's. You have a good product and I thought it was worth the money, so I bought it - that's how the system is supposed to work. But now, you're changing all the terms on the old guard.

People aren't buying books like they used to? No - your client base is getting older and we all have most of what we would like, just like I do with my physical library - yes, I still have one and am growing increasingly glad of that fact every day with the depressing changes that Logos rolls out every few months. But, we're still buying. What you need to focus on is getting new people to invest in these libraries just like we did. It isn't going to come from having a subscription plan the costs hundreds of dollars every year.

Well said. Over the last 22+ years I have strategically grown my library along the lines of what interests me. I have taken advantage of the free book of the month and the old Christmas specials and even bought the Bronze then Silver base libraries. My library additions have slowed down as there are fewer books that interest me. I would love to upgrade to Gold or Platinum but I simply don't have the funds these days. 

I'm just a lay person and now I am retired. Me needs have changed as have my means. Connect sounds like a good way to lure new users but time will tell. It just doesn't fit me. No hard feelings and no animosity. FL probably didn't convey the message as well as they should have. But the package that they provided us - coupon, keeping our Now subscriptions active until November+ and the Connect subscription roll over - were all first rate.  For that I am thankful and will remain a loyal Logos user even if I don't purchase much going forward.

Posts 543
Jesse Blevins | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 1 2018 1:52 PM

Nathan Parker said: 

It was marketed and communicated in a way where Faithlife seemed to transition customers onto a subscription service more than double the price and with overall not as good of value as Logos Now. Simply put, the way Faithlife handled the marketing and communication, no matter the coupon or the extension, it felt from a customer point-of-view as a classic “bait and switch”. The way Faithlife handled the communication of the Logos Connect email was received by us as a “We’re not pleased with the amount of money we’ve been getting out of you each year for your Logos Now membership. We’d rather move you to a new service that already includes the resources you’ve spent hundreds of dollars with us and chase you 140% more if you want to retain all of your existing Logos features, plus with overall fewer perks than Logos Now”. 

I completely agree. 

Posts 1904
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 1 2018 8:41 PM

Donnie Hale:

(I'm not going to quote Nathan's post, but that's what I'm responding to...)

This is pretty much where I stand. The big difference is I have zero invested in a competing Bible study software product - either dollars or time / learning curve. So I've go to do some thinking. I love Logos: it was indispensable in allowing me to finish an M.Div. degree while working as a technologist and pastoring a church. I've been looking forward to the new notes system, though I wonder now what it will take to get it. I'm tempted to treat my investment and all my resources as a giant electronic reading library - which is very valuable - but move to something else for "Bible study proper."

I'm inclined to be impulsive, so I'm trying to avoid any immediate decisions.

Also, the point later in this thread about the communications entitled "Logos Now is now Faithlife Connect" is dead-on. Absolutely horrible execution, and directly at odds with Bob's explanation as to the reasons for the change in direction.

Donnie

Hi Donnie! I saw your post on Twitter. Email me at the email address I tweeted back, and I'll be happy to talk with you.

Nathan Parker

Posts 1904
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 1 2018 9:20 PM
I probably shouldn't offer this since my confidence in Faithlife has been shattered into finer than baking powder. I've still canceled all my pre-publications and community pricing resources and set all my subscriptions to expire. I'm still also scaling back major future purchases with Faithlife/Logos, and I don't see exactly how Faithlife/Logos can fully re-earn my trust moving forward. This latest incident simply crossed a major line. However, what I said previously concerning my feedback concerning marketing future versions of Logos is still sitting in my brain. I'm willing to post it publicly right here on the forums for everyone (including Bob) to read so at least I as a longtime Logos customer can help become part of the solution. Does anyone want to hear it?

Nathan Parker

Posts 1904
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 1 2018 9:36 PM

Bootjack:

Nathan, I wish you could have gone into a little more detail.  

Thanks for tuning in this week to "The Parker Factor". Catch more analysis each week! Check your Faithlife forum listings. ;-)

(With all the disgruntling and upsettedness going around, I thought I'd throw in a little humor tonight).

Nathan Parker

Posts 14
Tong Shin Kai Clarence | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 1 2018 9:44 PM

Perhaps what can be done is a system where users can purchase individual features on an alacarte basis. This is so that users do not have to wait for the next major release for new features. Faithlife can continue their ongoing development work and users can pay for the features that they really want, this allows faithlife to get some revenue for the features that they create. The prices for those features can be slightly more expensive if bought individually as compared to when the major releases come out.

Posts 2
cshover8669 | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 1 2018 10:02 PM

OK, when I first got the email from Faithlife, I shot off a couple of "Hey I'm confused" emails to customer service and kept telling them they were not answering my questions about having to pay double for the same features.  Eventually, one of them sent me the link to Bob's response.  After a few days of reading the other posts and mulling it over, I have decided that it wasn't that big a deal after all.  Yes, the communication was poor and could have been much more deftly handled, but I am not a born communicator and if God held me accountable for all my communication gaffs, I would have no chance at salvation.  Here are my conclusions, take them for what they are worth or thumb your nose at them...

1. If, back in 2013, when I first invested in LOGOS, Faithlife Connect Essentials for $20 a month was offered, I would have probably jumped at it rather than investing what I thought was an exorbitant sum in Logos.  I have Music Unlimited from Amazon and don't buy CD's any more, I have reduced my print library from 8 floor-to-ceiling bookcases to two, mostly books that I have trouble finding electronically. So, I think it is a good option for those that want it.

2. I love Logos Bible software, and while I have only been with it since version 5, it does keep getting better. I have spent at least a new car's worth of money on it over the years. I hope Bob maintains the option to own and upgrade our libraries every few years. While I may not want to keep upgrading from say Gold where I am now to Platinum, I have a great interest in feature enhancement collections and sermon archives still. I am also addicted to study Bibles. So, as long as they keep the purchase and own model going, I'll probably keep investing in it, although maybe not as much each year as in previous years.  I will use my coupon when Logos 8 comes out for the new feature set, and, if my Logos Now subscription ends before 8 comes out, I will probably take Faithlife Connect Essentials for the few months in between and then drop it.

3.I own Accordance, Bible Works, Quick Verse, Word Search, Sword Searcher and Bible Analyzer.  I still do most of my work in Logos, although, I like the maps and timelines in Accordance better, and WordSearch has Instant Verse Study feature which I absolutely drool over, SwordSearcher has great Word Cloud feature that allows me to create a Word Cloud on any portion of scripture and instantly see what words and themes are emphasized based on the size of the word in the cloud.  They all have features and unique resources not available in other libraries and platforms, but the one I would be most loathe to give up would be Logos and this kafluffle hasn't changed that.

4. I tried using the cloud last night, and it is still not there in my opinion, though a lot better than the last time I investigated it.  It doesn't let me use my custom layouts, the parallel resource sets don't work the same way, and aren't defined the way I have them defined in the software.  When the cloud first came out I was excited because sometimes I wanted to study on my lunch break at work and it just wasn't there.  Now, I possibly could if I wanted to do so.

Bottom Line, nothing has changed and Logos has been good to me over the years when I have wanted to make returns or had issues, so I think, all in all, I will upgrade every couple of years to at lest the new features and maybe sometimes, to new books and libraries, and hope against hope that I die before Logos does.  LOL

Take it for what it is worth, which isn't much.

Bob, I am apologize for my initial reaction.  I trust you will learn from this and do a better job of communicating the next big change that comes down the pike.

Carla

Posts 778
scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2018 6:01 AM

Nathan Parker:
Does anyone want to hear it?

Nathan, I would appreciate you sharing your marketing plan.

Posts 146
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2018 7:42 AM

Nathan Parker:
Does anyone want to hear it?

Nathan, the Minimalist.  Of course I want to hear what you have to say!!!!! 

Posts 146
Rob Lambert | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2018 7:42 AM

sorry for the extra post... hit the button too many tiimes!!!!!

Posts 1672
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2018 12:30 PM

Ross Strader:
You are not good at TV - you won't be - you don't have enough money to be good at that.

The point of Faithlife TV isn't to beat Netflix or Amazon... it is to serve our customers in a unique way. Faithlife TV isn't yet what it will be. For one thing, the Christian content library is just beginning, and as it grows it will have content you won't find on Netflix or Amazon. Many Christian film makers can't easily get distribution on these larger platforms, and need a platform for sale or rental (or even just distribution). We're building this as a way they can get their content out.

Faithlife TV has special support for Logos Mobile Ed. It maintains your 'last read' position between Logos Bible Software and Faithlife TV, allowing people to choose the best platform for viewing while staying organized.

Faithlife TV is designed to support churches in ways you'll see rolling out this year. Churches can use it as a host for their live streaming, so invalid / traveling / sick congregants can watch the live stream on their smart TV in their living room, instead of just in a browser window on a laptop. Already you can record a service with Proclaim, and the audio will be turned into a video with your syncronized slides, and made available for viewing through Faithlife TV.

Churches will also be able to upload their own video content, allowing members and people who follow them to view their unique, in-house content on a smart TV streaming platform. (You can't do that with Netflix or Amazon.) Churches will also be able to purchase video content (small group curriculum with videos for use at home) and make it easily and automatically available to small group leaders for in-home use. No more getting DVDs to people, or having to project laptops to large screens.

(For what it's worth, we've talked with many churches that have tried big, secular solutions -- streaming video via YouTube, hosting sermon videos on YouTube or other services, etc. There are lots of problems working with organizations that don't specialize in churches: hostile people flag videos for objectionable content (when it's just the gospel they find objectionable), automatic copyright monitoring bots flag worship services as having unauthorized music because there's no way for churches to tell YouTube they have a streaming license for broadcasting services, etc.)

Ross Strader:
You are not good at Presentation software - Proclaim is a mess - a terrible mess. I'll say it if nobody else will.

I'm sorry to hear you feel that way, and would welcome your suggestions on improvement.

I also want to know if you're looking at Proclaim as it is now, or if it's been a while, because as a subscription product Proclaim is updated frequently, and it's gotten very powerful while also getting easier to use. Thousands of churches use Proclaim each weekend, and new churches adopt it daily. It's okay if you don't like it, but I hope you're looking at the latest version.

Ross Strader:
where is the Faithlife Podcast?

Just to be clear -- this is something new you do want us to get into? <smile> We do already have https://today.faithlife.com/ and https://faithlifetv.com/items/369488 with Michael Heiser... we're looking at others.

Ross Strader:
I fear you are abandoning the industry you created...

I'm sorry you feel that way. It's not our intention, and Bible software is still the heart of our business (and the biggest part of it). We're just looking for other ways to serve the Church so that we can keep growing, provide opportunities for our staff to grow and advance without having to leave the company, and to cover the increasing costs of supporting an increasingly large 'technology platform surface.' It was a lot easier when Microsoft Windows was the only game in town. :-)

Posts 2123
Beloved | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2018 2:04 PM

Bob, You're a strong and courageous leader and I think you have demonstrated you have learned from your most recent mistake. I would like to see you reduce the time it takes to add new books and get the books and resources that have been widely requested e.g. Fire Bible, Baylor Handbooks, NET Bible 2nd Ed, Carta, etc.

Meanwhile, Jesus kept on growing wiser and more mature, and in favor with God and his fellow man.

International Standard Version. (2011). (Lk 2:52). Yorba Linda, CA: ISV Foundation.

Posts 3937
abondservant | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2018 2:13 PM

Faithlife TV is designed to support churches in ways you'll see rolling out this year. Churches can use it as a host for their live streaming, so invalid / traveling / sick congregants can watch the live stream on their smart TV in their living room, instead of just in a browser window on a laptop. Already you can record a service with Proclaim, and the audio will be turned into a video with your syncronized slides, and made available for viewing through Faithlife TV.


That I like. My small church is mostly the elderly. Would love to have a way to reach them when they can't make it in.

L2 lvl4, L3 Scholars, L4 Scholars, L5 Platinum,  L6 Collectors. L7 Baptist Portfolio. L8 Baptist Platinum.

Posts 17750
Forum MVP
Keep Smiling 4 Jesus :) | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2018 3:14 PM

cshover8669:
Bob, I am apologize for my initial reaction.  I trust you will learn from this and do a better job of communicating the next big change that comes down the pike.

Thankful for Bob Pritchett's => Announcement: Logos Now to continue at same price (with new name) that communicates better Big Smile

Keep Smiling Smile

Posts 1904
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Mar 2 2018 6:47 PM

Rob Lambert:

Nathan Parker:
Does anyone want to hear it?

Nathan, the Minimalist.  Of course I want to hear what you have to say!!!!! 

I'll probably post it this weekend or next week. I've found a few ways to make it even simpler (but not any shorter in explanation). :-) 

I'll be glad to post it though so that Faithlife can read it as they plan for Logos 8.

Nathan Parker

Posts 6
jim stillwell | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2018 10:36 AM

Hi Mike! Was just stumbling through the forum and noticed your post about Wesley's Works. Unless you're talking about another set Logos does sell a 22 vol set of John Wesley's Works. Maybe that's not the set you want- just thought I'd mention it.

jim s.

Posts 27017
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2018 11:39 AM

Bob Pritchett:
(For what it's worth, we've talked with many churches that have tried big, secular solutions -- streaming video via YouTube, hosting sermon videos on YouTube or other services, etc. There are lots of problems working with organizations that don't specialize in churches: hostile people flag videos for objectionable content (when it's just the gospel they find objectionable), automatic copyright monitoring bots flag worship services as having unauthorized music because there's no way for churches to tell YouTube they have a streaming license for broadcasting services, etc.)

I have a love/hate relationship with YouTube. Mostly hate. For example: I hate when I go to show an appropriate clip to teens and have inappropriate content either 1) shown as a link on the side OR 2) autoplayed afterwards. FLTV sounds like it has some potential!

Bob Pritchett:
It was a lot easier when Microsoft Windows was the only game in town. :-)
 

Ahem.  Spoken like a true, former MSFT employee. That was NEVER the case Bob. Stick out tongue

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 1904
Nathan Parker | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Mar 3 2018 1:31 PM

I'm wondering...

Back when this originally happened, Logos Now was discontinued. Verbum Now wasn't.

What if the REAL reason for this was the marketing teams had secret plans to bring non-Catholics back into the Catholic church by having us all switch to Verbum Now? Maybe a secret plan to bring everyone back into the mother church? ;-)

Nathan Parker

Posts 2
cbabc | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 22 2018 2:47 AM

As a recent purchaser, who had considered the option of LN, I would have to argue that this not only undermines my willingness to "subscribe"; but also makes me question whether I did the right thing in ordering a base package at all.  I would expect that, like me, most users of the Logos system are into a product that allows one to perform technical exegesis, better, faster, and more thoroughly. 

I would also like to say, many of the extras (T.V., ebooks, ...), really make me wonder at whether or not there needs to be a streamlining of development.  I would be willing (and consider) subscribing to something that gives the ability to do better, smarter, and faster technical work, and perhaps improved datasets or discounts.  But, I am also a Logos user for the sake of Logos, not of T.V., groups, or web-apps.

The point of this is to say, I would wonder if many of the user base really has a need or even a desire for many of the things that Faithlife offers. (If I wanted church media, I could probably get a better, more professional, and more useful set of stuff from Sharefaith -- with more usefulness, particularly to the kind of church I attend and am most likely to attend and/or lead). I have always understood Logos to be a research system focused in Bible study and theological research (the "package expert" guys sure push it as that kind of a product!) .  I would expect that the best way to add value -- and spend the man-hours involved in programming -- would be to focus the majority of the work on that aim and end.  

Further, as far as the features are concerned, the 'great new features every six weeks is something I've never heard: I have most certainly missed that memo (and/or the hype).  I studied programming as part of my undergraduate degree, so I have an idea what programming is like -- granted nothing as major as Logos.  And, from this standpoint, things like Vyrso scare me -- because I would have to expect that (supposing Logos is programmed in something of an object-orientented, and some (probably more recent) version of an MVC paradigm (Of course it is!)) the Faithlife developers must either develop an entire new program around a very limited core library, so that a full-featured engine and user interface has to be written and updated from almost scratch (thereby sinking developer hours into, not only writing new apps, but also the libraries, interfaces, and bindings that work with them, which is expensive and time-consuming); or (which, given the integration, is what I suspect) there is a need for a basic API that re-focuses one or two MVC frameworks (like Logos and Proclaim), into any number of different applications -- which, if I remember my programming studies correctly, is one of the major benefits of developing software in a modular, object oriented way; but doing so could also be bad for performance, as optimizing the code for different features becomes more complicated, as code in the engine may have to be tested in different additional ways; and there are additional clients that must be handled, which must be dispatched at runtime (one of the ways of optimizing software is reducing the indirection involved in these kinds of calls -- especially if they occur frequently), and, possibly, the need to develop wrappers and adaptors and interfaces that allow for the function of libraries to be extended into new use cases for new features. (The benefit, as far as I can remember, of modular and polymorphic programming is not to have the same Logos app repackaged into 4 different forms; but so that controller code doesn't do unexpected things to the state of the model if the end user does something 'unexpected'; being able to handle unexpected and erroneous 'events' intelligently; and so that the logic behind particular features can be added, updated, and changed, with a bare minimum of change to other parts of the program, so that the program can be more easily maintained, enhanced, and updated.) This makes me wonder, whether or not there are either (1) features and optimization that are not the best they could be, because what should be concrete is abstract or polymorphic, or involving extraneous function calls, which does take away runtime; or what model and controller code could be improved by not having 4 different viewers; or (2) what features don't work as well as they could, or aren't built distinctly for a technical study and research platform, because they have to interface with 5 different (expensive to develop and/or maintain) software components, which also effects the available functionality and ability for new features to work natively within an app.  In short, programming is a tough job, and I have to wonder if Faithlife is over-extended.

Yes, I can agree that 'great new features every six weeks' is amazing, and, having a very small taste of the effort and thought required to write quality programs, I would not be surprised if it were very difficult for developers to maintain that kind of release schedule for all but the most trivial of new features.  Yes, it is difficult and expensive.  And it requires updating techniques, libraries, and compilers quite often.  And commercial compilers and IDE's, too, can be expensive.  And decent development libraries are expensive, and sometimes can be licensed on a per-instance basis, which makes development of a commercial program more and more expensive. And developing a major commercial program across two different platforms requires investing in development tools, training, and commercial libraries for not just one, but two different platforms, which makes the development all the more costly.  And developing free versions for mobile platforms may also require different programming skills, commercial licenses, and possibly paying for the app to be included in the store.  

So, I am not surprised to see that different companies need to balance their cashflow with subscription pricing.  I can understand the need for having new avenues of income.  And I can probably expect that this cashflow becomes largely prejudicial to faithlife, when many of the business tools that you use every day may or may not have moved to the cloud and incur ongoing costs when they may have previously involved one-time costs.  As I said, I would consider subscribing to something that truly enhances my ability to study better.

However, I can also argue from my experience as a person who has spent my entire adult life in the study of Christian theology and of the Bible, that I find many of the products offered unhelpful.  I find that the "package expert" guys are some of the best experts of the hard sell, which I consider to be impertinent to a Christian company, and often overvaluing the product.  I find that, while there is focus on training, much of the focus is not on showing me how what I have now can get the job done in better ways; but in convincing me that I need just that little bit more -- whether or not I actually need it (I have to confess, that I am one of your costumers with a 'good enough for now' library with few exceptions: I purchased a base package at my level with that particular intention) -- which I find to be neither virtuous nor helpful; and that these changes in branding are not pertinent to me, but are just plain distracting; and are not at all related to the reason I purchased Logos: to be able to study Scripture better, more thoroughly, and more easily.   I have looked at Vyrso on several occasions, and I have found the available content lacking; The sermon editor seems to be more suited for a Proclaim power user and Bible study leader than someone who wants to have a tool integrated into *Logos* that helps with developing _sermons_.  It seems almost unsuited to a person who will never want proclaim (and would likely find different options if he did) (the page describing it advertises a feature to develop sermons and Bible studies *quick and easy*; most pastors would recognize, however, that there is more value in outlining, drafting, and brainstorming tools (both for study and for the actual message)  than in media production tools; propositional outlines (although, one would wonder if that is something that would be better provided as a diagramming/outlining module, than in pre-written outlines of bible books (especially for the textual or thematic preacher)) notwithstanding.

Logos Now was something I was considering subscribing to, especially if it would bring with it better access to support (I find Morris Proctor's work to be very lacking), and considerable discounts to allow me to add more to my library once I can and/or need to.  I believe I understood the product right: additional features, unavailable to other Logos 7 users; access to the web-app without subscribing to cloud; and the ability to upgrade to the new version before others, with discounts on version 8 base packages.

Now, with *cloud* and the web-app, I can see where the confusion may arise. I am also confused, though, on why I have been prompted to buy a base package after I bought a base package.  I find faithlife TV to be questionable (are you really trying to compete with Netflix-like streaming services, as a Bible study company!?); and often find most video productions from evangelical sources lacking in quality.  I might consider a subscription that would allow me to download("own") an extra some-odd Logos resources per month, but I have to say, I am likely not going to find the new ebook service to be that much improved over the selection of Vyrso, which I also found to be one of the least capable eReader apps available.  As an existing Logos costumer, I am also confused about whether or not FaithlifeConnect is offering me access to Logos, Logos cloud, or additional features/resources in Logos (or Bible study on the Web?)!  On the one hand, this scheme reminds me of the online Christian bookstore, of which I am a preferred customer, wanting me to pay $5 per month, in order to receive discounts -- even though I prefer my books in e-edition -- and then sending me endless catalogues advertising mostly junk and trivia whenever I place an order. If I wanted to go broke buying endless books that look good, that is a good thing; If I want to build a library to help me study, then it is counterproductive and distracting. That is an unfortunate but irritating side of ordering from that company. (One would also have to wonder how many people pay that $5).

So, if there is a likelihood that (like, I will perhaps need to focus at some point on original language and/or Baptist resources) this subscription will give me tools to build a better research library, or to use it better, then I will consider it carefully.  If it will give me the ability to invest more to get more tools, to make better use of my library, then I will consider it carefully.  But, *Faithlife* products? and a "research library" consisting of (access to) mostly products that I either already own, or of which I have no need at this time? (I actually had considered Cloud Premium or Pro as an alternative to Logos, but decided my base package is more cost effective -- I found the resources available at the lower levels to be, well, trite).  Well, the issue of buying v licensing web-based products is confusing, I'll admit (since, in reality, I probably do not actually "own" my library, but a perpetual license to it) -- but, this is why I say, that I would be interested if there were considerable discounts on future *Logos* _purchases_ (without the "package expert" people) to allow me to develop my library further when I can and need to.  But, looking at the TV site, I come to suspect, that you are, again, not developing a tool for serious technical/pastoral Bible study, but engaging in a market of Church and Christian content consumption -- possibly trying to compete with the likes of Facebook and Netflix -- which is distracting to me, is often prejudicial to the ability to really focus on study and reading, and leaves me wondering how much value I am loosing from my significant investment in a base package because of these ventures which are largely superfluous to my needs; and perhaps how much it will distract from being able to invest further in my library on the Logos platform according to my needs, or whether the focus of the company has been moved from developing the kind of quality that is advertised and promised, to developing these devices and innovations, which are of no real or lasting value to the Logos platform, and require me to navigate through a stream of campaigns and advertising intended to sell me effective junk, while convincing me of the increased value thereof.

So, no, you killing Logos Now.  But you are removing anything of interest, and focusing the subscription on what seems to me to be superfluous, which is irrelevant to the product I purchased from your company; you do not place a decision before me to either subscribe or own features and/or resources; you place something which, whether I choose to subscribe to it or not, already means that the value of my software is considerably diminished from what it could be; and you need me to subscribe to something I have very little need or want for, in order to help fund further development on a piece of software for which I am already heavily invested; and where much of my investment is not going to developing features, or helping to create more value for my Bible study platform, but to things for which I would expect that your more serious and loyal costumers have little need or use: just consumption. 

I would, also, have to ask whether or not this 'tail wagging the dog' is a 'failure' of Logos Now; or whether a hard-sell, over-committed software company, while spreading itself too thin, is unable to actually guide its costumers (and, perhaps, even provide them with) the products that actually meet the needs of its costumers, but trains and pushes sales to the point that many costumers who ought to consider cloud essentials end up with both base packages and subscriptions.  I would wonder if the absence of a promised cloud app is indicative of a lack of focus of development and support for the reason Logos exists, and the reason that most costumers will ever use Logos; and if many of the transaction people felt left out, because they felt pressured from an over-extending sales team to buy and subscribe to more than they need.  

Posts 956
Yasmin Stephen | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Mar 22 2018 6:48 AM

Jeff Horn:

As a recent purchaser, who had considered the option of LN, I would have to argue that this not only undermines my willingness to "subscribe" ...

I didn't read your post beyond the first paragraph (I'm sorry) but in case you weren't aware of the new developments re: Logos Now and Faithlife Connect, here is an update thread: https://community.logos.com/forums/t/160830.aspx 

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