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This post has 389 Replies | 32 Followers

Posts 63
Bryce Hufford | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:16 PM

Bob Pritchett:

"But I passed up purchasing the feature set, and now I'll lose it if I don't double my monthly subscription cost!"

We have tried to address every case of this through credits to help you purchase the feature set, and thus lock in the new features even if you cease subscribing. It was our intention that every Logos Now user who'd chosen to 'upgrade via Logos Now instead of purchase' have the option to re-make that decision, choosing purchase-for-ownership, with the help of a credit.

This is why I’m not upset about the new announcement.  You are crediting back what I’ve paid to try LN over the last two years and I can use the credit to now “own” the full feature set.  Not many other companies out there would do that.

I hope Faithlife is successful in your new strategy; however, I strongly suspect that with the announced changes, your subscription revenue is going to decline rather than increase like you are hoping.  If that is the case, there will be of course new changes later down the road.  

Posts 473
Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:24 PM

JT (alabama24):
FWIW - I think "Faithlife Connect" can be a great thing... but for many users, it isn't the right thing. 

I would agree with several points in this thread - many new users are accustomed to the subscription model - I have heard time and time again where I have shared the idea of Logos to people and they are on board... until they hear the price.  But for some reason, people are perfectly fine dolling out as much or more in a smaller monthly payment.  I'm thinking mostly of my lay leadership team and church members.  This subscription method may make Logos "accessible" to a new community of the "average" church membership since the high spending users (like myself and several other forum users) may be reaching a slowed pace of purchasing power.  (Although, I know I got plenty more books to buy, wife-willing!)  

If Logos is committed to continuing making the software experience more user-friendly for the devotional and congregational life of a Christian, then I believe a larger adoption of the software would continue.  The subscription model seems to make sense for that customer.  

I personally feel like the LN switch to FLConnect was abrupt - maybe a teaser email before the rollout would have been nice?  On the other hand, this rollout gives us 9 months heads up (at least) before any real changes happen.  The challenge is for those that anticipated LN to continue on indefinitely and used it as a way to not have to get a purchased feature set.

MBPro'12 / i5 / 8GB // 3.0 Scholars (Purple) / L6 & L7 Platinum, M&E Platinum, Anglican Bronze, P&C Silver / L8 Silver

Posts 2276
Ronald Quick | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:37 PM

I understand the need for Logos to have a subscriber service as it produces a steady stream of income.  However, I am one who prefers to own the product instead of "renting" it so I didn't try Logos Now and everything I have is what I have bought.

I do have a substantial library (13000+), so I don't to purchase as many resources as I did several years ago and I'm sure I'm not the only one who doesn't need to buy new resources every month.  This just reinforces the need for a subscription based model, but again, it's not what I prefer.  I do make regular purchases, but just not as much or as often.

From what Bob said, it sounds like the purchasing option will be around for a while and I hope it stays that way. 

I know there are a number of people not happy with the change from Logos Now to Faithlife Connect.  I can't offer my opinion on which is better, but I do hope that who subscribe to Faithlife Connect find it a worthwhile purchase.  I'm very happy with my Logos library and hope that the company stays around for a long time.  

Posts 1752
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:44 PM

Mark:
I would not...because believe it or not, I still go to places where there is no internet access.  And I am in need of a program like Logos offline.  Even at home there are times when I do not have internet access.

Just a quick clarification that whether you buy a base package or subscribe to Connect (or Cloud or Now before that), you have the same offline and online options. Base package owners can use the desktop app, the mobile app, and the web app. The same is true for Connect (and Cloud and Now). The fundamental difference is owning a perpetual license vs. subscribing to a temporary license, not offline vs. online.

Posts 9855
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:51 PM

Richard Villanueva:

I would agree with several points in this thread - many new users are accustomed to the subscription model - I have heard time and time again where I have shared the idea of Logos to people and they are on board... until they hear the price.  But for some reason, people are perfectly fine dolling out as much or more in a smaller monthly payment.  I'm thinking mostly of my lay leadership team and church members.  This subscription method may make Logos "accessible" to a new community of the "average" church membership since the high spending users (like myself and several other forum users) may be reaching a slowed pace of purchasing power.  (Although, I know I got plenty more books to buy, wife-willing!)  

If Logos is committed to continuing making the software experience more user-friendly for the devotional and congregational life of a Christian, then I believe a larger adoption of the software would continue.  The subscription model seems to make sense for that customer.  

If I was a tea leaf reader, I'd think you got it right.

If I wanted to combine Logos, Proclaim, and church operations into an attractive package, to include educational opportunities for 'the church', I'd dump the thin subscription model, in favor of a more hefty library/teaching subscription. If indeed, it'd be another major step in how the church can move forward.  I'd assume only a Faithlife could do it.


Posts 1896
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:52 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
Just a quick clarification that whether you buy a base package or subscribe to Connect (or Cloud or Now before that), you have the same offline and online options. Base package owners can use the desktop app, the mobile app, and the web app. The same is true for Connect (and Cloud and Now). The fundamental difference is owning a perpetual license vs. subscribing to a temporary license, not offline vs. online.

I do not see this and I guess you can help me to see it. But I think you misunderstand. (Maybe I misunderstand).  IF I owned nothing and I subscribed to Connect but I owned NO resources...it was all subscription based...then there is nothing to download.  It is all done via a web app.  If this is not true, then FL has failed miserably to make it clear.

Posts 1752
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 7:58 PM

Mark:
IF I owned nothing and I subscribed to Connect but I owned NO resources...it was all subscription based...then there is nothing to download.  It is all done via a web app.  If this is not true, then FL has failed miserably to make it clear.

That is not true. If all you have is a Connect subscription, you are able to download the mobile app and the desktop app and access your content and tools offline as much as a base package owner can.

Base package owners are generally more likely to want downloadable desktop software, so we focus on that as the primary platform for using your tools and content, but the other platforms are still available.

Subscribers are generally more likely to want web-based access, so we focus on that as the primary platform for using your tools and content, but the others are still available.

The license is to the tools and content, not to a particular platform or app.

Thanks for the feedback that this isn't sufficiently clear. We'll work to improve the communication.

Posts 27000
Forum MVP
JT (alabama24) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:00 PM

Mark:

Phil Gons (Faithlife):
Just a quick clarification that whether you buy a base package or subscribe to Connect (or Cloud or Now before that), you have the same offline and online options. Base package owners can use the desktop app, the mobile app, and the web app. The same is true for Connect (and Cloud and Now). The fundamental difference is owning a perpetual license vs. subscribing to a temporary license, not offline vs. online.

I do not see this and I guess you can help me to see it. But I think you misunderstand. (Maybe I misunderstand).  IF I owned nothing and I subscribed to Connect but I owned NO resources...it was all subscription based...then there is nothing to download.  It is all done via a web app.  If this is not true, then FL has failed miserably to make it clear.

That was one of the problems with the term “Logos Cloud.” It implied “web only,” which wasn’t true. Faithlife Connect is a subscription service. Users still can download resources. 

OSX & iOS | Logs |  Install

Posts 1043
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:02 PM

Mark:
I do not see this and I guess you can help me to see it. But I think you misunderstand. (Maybe I misunderstand).  IF I owned nothing and I subscribed to Connect but I owned NO resources...it was all subscription based...then there is nothing to download.

No. However you acquire Logos--subscription or purchase--everything with the desktop program downloads and works offline except for a (very) few features which are internet-dependent. The web app is simply an alternative way of accessing your resources--you can ignore it completely if you want.

The subscription simply means that, when it runs out, you would be locked out of the subscription resources/features until you paid up again.

 Logos Now Subscriber -- 22/2/2018

Posts 20
Sojourner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:06 PM

Thank you for taking the time to explain the situation. I purchased Logos Now a few months ago to have access to the feature set, not all the other components. I was not aware that "new features" were due every few weeks. While I appreciated the other components like a free "classic" each month, which helped me learn the value of Logos for more than just Bible study. I considered everything else a perk to the primary value of having the feature set. As a student who just started his MDiv, this new model hurts.

I do not have a problem with the new subscription model for new customers. As I read through the tiers, I realized that there were a few people I know on the fence about Logos and this price point may help convince them. I think Faithlife has provided a lot of value in these tiers (Faithlife TV being the exception.) However, I am holding off on recommending this to friends and family, because I want to see how this transition is handled. 

My biggest concern is the lack of dynamic pricing for the hybrid approach. I see two main pieces to Faithlife Connect (FC): subscribing to content and subscribing to software. I have no problem subscribing to software, I have done this elsewhere as others have mentioned; Microsoft Office being the prime example. After all, for probably most Logos Now subscribers, we subscribed for software not content. What matters for software is the quality of the product, not the quantity of new features it contains. As to content, if I already purchased content that is now offered in a tier, but am going to be charged the same as if I had not purchased that content, I feel cheated. 

This raise a couple scenarios:

1) I own a library now. If I subscribe to FC with content that overlaps what I bought, will the price be adjusted?

2) I own nothing. I subscribe to FC. I purchase a library. Will the library be dynamically priced? I would imagine no, because the content through FC is a temporary license. Will my FC subscription be adjusted due to the licenses which have switched to permanent?

Looking back at my purchasing decision a few months ago, I have a couple observations. When I was trying to determine what to buy, Logos Cloud was never on my radar. I did not know it existed, I wish I did. When I contacted Faithlife with questions about Logos Now, I was not suggested Cloud as an alternative library. Instead I was given the hybrid option, which is fine. I subscribed for software and bought the content. Even finding Logos Now was a bit of an accident, however. It was not featured in a prominent way as an alternative to purchasing the feature sets. For me, the problem with Logos Now and Logos Cloud was the lack of marketing. Even a side banner on the product page of base packages for other purchase options would have helped me navigate my options. 

Posts 1896
Mark | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:12 PM

Thanks all for the clarification.  Let me make it clearer.  If I owned only subscription based and never purchased a book...my desktop platform that I have now would still look the same.  The only difference is that the resources would not be permanent.  But just as I can work offline now in the logos platform with my purchased resources, I would be able to work offline in the logos platform with the rented resources.  So logos cloud really was not a cloud...accessing resources only when online since the resources are stored in the cloud.  Logos cloud was really the same as the logos desktop platform with the only difference being that the resources that were downloaded would expire when the subscription expires.

Posts 1043
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:14 PM

Bob Pritchett:

I’m sorry when that frustrates you, and promise that we will continue to try and do right by every user, even if we have to address each user’s situation specifically. We will also continue to listen to your feedback; it is the most important thing in helping us make decisions.

Thanks for letting us know what you think, even if you're unhappy.

One last thing: Bob, I appreciate your openness to feedback, whether positive or negative, and your willingness to dialog with your customers.

I wish to highlight this section of Bob's post to some of the forumites who regularly jump in and start calling people bad Christians whenever they raise complaints about something FaithLife has done. Here you have it from Bob himself--they can handle the criticism.

 Logos Now Subscriber -- 22/2/2018

Posts 2968
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:15 PM

Matthew Cillo:
1) I own a library now. If I subscribe to FC with content that overlaps what I bought, will the price be adjusted?

Not presently. There is no dynamic pricing for Faithlife Connect.

Matthew Cillo:
2) I own nothing. I subscribe to FC. I purchase a library. Will the library be dynamically priced?

No. You would be buying a permanent license (which means you own but are also still paying to rent).

Matthew Cillo:
I would imagine no, because the content through FC is a temporary license.

Correct. Otherwise someone could subscribe, get dynamic pricing on a library based on what they rented, then cancel the subscription, and FL would be out money for what you no longer rent but own yet didn't pay for.

Matthew Cillo:
Will my FC subscription be adjusted due to the licenses which have switched to permanent?

No, since there is no dynamic pricing for FC.

If FL could address this, lowering our cost, more of us might subscribe.

Posts 71
Matthew | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:18 PM

Bob,

Thanks for the detailed and well thought out post. As usual, it was helpful in understanding FL's thought process, vision, and strategy moving forward. Unfortunately, as is too often the case with FL's roll-outs, this post should have PROCEEDED the launch, not come a day after as a P.R. response to a near mutiny. FL needs to over communicate on new launches, not throw it out there and see what happens. FL customers are invested, both financially and emotionally, in the products and services you provide. This is no different than coming home after work and telling your wife and kids you've quit your job and you're all moving to the South Pole. A little communication up front goes a long way. Many of us have been with you a long time and want to see FL survive and thrive. We're for you, not against you. How about letting us know what's going on ahead of time instead of dropping major changes out of the blue? That's all most of us our asking. As you explained, we now have plenty of time to understand the changes and decide what we want to do moving forward. But few of us understood that because of the terrible way it was rolled out. My sincere advice--whether it's L8 or the next big idea--is to communicate early and often with your customers. Better yet, ask us for our feedback, and we'll tell you. Better to do it that way than the way this was handled, as you've seen ;) 

Shalom

Posts 1670
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:20 PM

Sean:

1. Thank you for sharing. I understand the financial issues. I don't think this is motivated by greed.

I appreciate your acknowledging that our intention is not greed. And you're right.

Sean:
We want to be able to keep our software updated and nimble at a reasonable cost. $100 a year was reasonable for that. $240 is not. $90 is not reasonable for a greatly diminished alternative set of features.

Unfortunately, the math wasn't paying the bills. Logos Now needed a significant percentage of the user base to adopt it in order to cover ongoing development costs. Unfortunately, only a small portion of the customer base subscribed, and in most cases, that subscription resulted in a lower annual spend from those users. (People who previously upgraded with a combination of resources (which, as I point out, are how we get paid) and feature sets decided that they didn't need more resources, and were happy to just get feature upgrades from Logos Now at $9/month, for less revenue.)

Yes, as many of you point out, it was a killer deal and those who took advantage of it loved it. But with decreasing book sales to long-time customers (possibly because we're being punished for bad behavior, as some of you hint in this thread, but more likely because "I have so many books I don't need any more", as many others users expressed), it was too good a deal -- unless lots and lots of people took the deal and made up for it in volume.

(Note also that as the company ages, an increasing percentage of the user base by definition becomes 'mature, long-time customers' with large libraries. At the start everyone needs more books... over time, everyone wants new code / new updates / continued support, but fewer and fewer people, as a percentage, are new customers just starting to build their libraries.)

Logos Now was an awesome deal, and we tried hard to get everyone to see that. But while you did, not enough did.

Logos Now maxed out somewhere near 1.8% of our annual revenue. That doesn't come close to making a dent in the cost of delivering it, let alone driving new product development and support.

Sean:
4. Thank you for the coupon, which mitigates the sting a little bit. I'm going to use mine to buy a Logos 7 feature set to "freeze" my present configuration. I will not renew my Now/Connect subscription, nor will I buy any other subscriptions you offer in the future.

That's great -- that's exactly what the coupon was for. And maybe the subscription isn't the best option for you. I hope an upgrade to Logos 8 will seem worthwhile; that's a determination you'll have to make once you see the value. We have to do the same kind of value analysis to see how much we can spend on improvements based on revenue... which is why we're in this conversation: sometimes we guess right, and sometimes we guess wrong and have to adjust.

Posts 1752
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:21 PM

Mark:

Thanks all for the clarification.  Let me make it clearer.  If I owned only subscription based and never purchased a book...my desktop platform that I have now would still look the same.  The only difference is that the resources would not be permanent.  But just as I can work offline now in the logos platform with my purchased resources, I would be able to work offline in the logos platform with the rented resources.  So logos cloud really was not a cloud...accessing resources only when online since the resources are stored in the cloud.  Logos cloud was really the same as the logos desktop platform with the only difference being that the resources that were downloaded would expire when the subscription expires.

Correct. The only other difference is one of emphasis: base package ownership emphasizes desktop software, but doesn't limit you to it; a subscription emphasizes web-based access, but doesn't limit you to it.

Posts 2968
Forum MVP
PetahChristian | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:22 PM

Mark:
So logos cloud really was not a cloud

Correct. The resources can be local AND remote, not much different than how Apple iCloud documents can be both local on your Mac and remote on the web.

Logos Cloud really has to do with "renting," whether on the desktop (local temporary resources) or web (remote temporary resources).

Posts 1670
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:24 PM

JT (alabama24):
I am not upset that you killed LN as a program, but you should still have an inexpensive means to subscribe to the features.

How inexpensive is inexpensive enough? Is there something magical about the Logos Now price point vs the Faithlife Connect price point?

And what if your definition of inexpensive is below my definition of 'covers costs'? How are we supposed to make that work? (A serious question, not sarcasm.) Yes, I hoped that the math would work -- and it would have, IF more people took the deal, and IF people also kept buying books... So I'll acknowledge that we set the price expectation, but it was based (as it had to be) on guesses about the future, some of which were wrong.

JT (alabama24):
Users could "buy" books and have an inexpensive means to keep "up to date" on features.

Right... except what happens if they started buying dramatically fewer books, and books were baked into the revenue model as the subsidizer of the 'inexpensive up to date features'?

Posts 20
Sojourner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:25 PM

PetahChristian:

No, since there is no dynamic pricing for FC.

If FL could address this, lowering our cost, more of us might subscribe.

Thanks. Hopefully, this "penalty" of paying every month for books that are already owned will be addressed soon. Without this adjustment, I can't in good conscience recommend FC to anyone. 

Posts 1670
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 8:29 PM

Sean:
6. The rollout of this change was terrible. That's kind of the default for FaithLife. You really need to look into why that is the case.

We hear this criticism with almost every significant announcement. (I hear it internally when we make internal announcements.)

It could be you're right, and we're just incapable of communicating clearly... :-(  It's a hard problem -- if you just put something out for discussion casually, you don't have the details and specifics that people immediately want to understand it. If you put out the details and specifics, people complain there was no warning.

This time we put all the information together, prepared specific "your individual situation" emails for everyone, and designed it to take nine months to actually change anything (other than giving you new stuff for free immediately).

Yes, I suppose we could have just put a "Here's what we're thinking...." label in front of it... but in many ways this IS the pre-announcement. (While we think the plan is done, it's also nine months from full implementation, which is plenty of time to gather feedback and make necessary tweaks...)

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