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This post has 389 Replies | 32 Followers

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 9:33 PM

Richard Villanueva:
many new users are accustomed to the subscription model

I'm glad to hear you believe this too...

Richard Villanueva:
This subscription method may make Logos "accessible" to a new community of the "average" church membership since the high spending users (like myself and several other forum users) may be reaching a slowed pace of purchasing power.

That is our hope.

Richard Villanueva:
I personally feel like the LN switch to FLConnect was abrupt

We are definitely getting that message loud and clear. :-)

Richard Villanueva:
The challenge is for those that anticipated LN to continue on indefinitely

...what we hope we addressed in the emails directly to the individuals involved. Again, if we haven't satisfied you with that, let us know.

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 9:34 PM

Denise:
If I wanted to combine Logos, Proclaim, and church operations into an attractive package, to include educational opportunities for 'the church',

That seems like an interesting idea...

Posts 9050
Forum MVP
Mark Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 9:34 PM

Bob, I am just amazed that you'd ask me to shell out $200 a month for access to less than 3,000 resources (Connect Ultimate).

The first thing I wanted to know is what commentaries were included. For $2,400 a year, or $24,000 in ten years I get access to a bunch of old public domain texts, a few ECC commentaries, a handful of secondary commentaries, and as far as I can see, just one top tier commentary (Pillar). (Some would add Hermeneia as top tier, but many would disagree.) No NIC. No NIGTC. No Baker Exegetical. No ICC. No Socio-Rhetorical. No Word. Not even NAC.

Under dictionaries there is Anchor Yale, but not a single one of the many IVP dictionaries.

Under Hebrew lexicons there is no HALOT.

The journal offerings are extraordinarily weak. Not sure who your target is with that random collection.

What does a serious student/pastor/seminarian do? He/she is forced to buy commentaries, HALOT, many other dictionaries and journals, and still pay you for some sort of subscription? I don't think so.

Exactly who is your target? It looks to me like this model will fail as Logos Cloud did, and likely for the same reason - lousy content. Lay people will give you $10 or $20 a month. But for that you offer nothing and next to nothing. I would never recommend either to a lay person in my church. I'd rather they bought Tyndale at full price so at least they'd have a decent commentary at the end of a year. 

If you offered access to everything FL produced for $200 a month that would still be a whole lot of money for what one actually used. I've used Logos for well over 20 years. Imagine: I'd be out $48,000, own nothing, and have used mostly second-rate commentaries that whole time. WOW.

When you can get permission to rent your whole catalog, and figure out how to distribute the earnings to the publishers, and price your offerings in a reasonable way, then you may have a lot of customers.

Right now you are fixin' to get very few.

I wish you and FL well. I have a lot invested with you. I don't think you have a model that is going to work no matter how desperately you need it to, but of course, we'll just have to wait and see.

Pastor, North Park Baptist Church

Bridgeport, CT USA

Posts 2679
Kevin A. Purcell | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 9:41 PM

Bob, you keep saying that new features wasn't the primary focus. That just didn't sound true to me. So I searched me email archives for "Logos Now" and guess what I discovered. Early on nearly every email from Logos was about the new version features. Then it became Scott half new features and have new book discounts or free books. Lately it was more about books.

The reason we thought it was about new features is you made it about new features at the outset.

Second, you say that you're ok with us not subscribing and just buying at the upgrade. Great. Can you then offer a .5 feature upgrade that I can but before the big new .0 upgrade? So let's say I get 8.0 got $400 in Nov. Then in May you sell a feature upgrade for $79. When 9.0 comes out I'll probably get it. Then if 9.5 comes for that $79 price awesome. I subscribe to Now ONLY for the feature upgrades but won't subscribe for $240. So let me give you a smaller amount more often for a software upgrade. I get what I want. You get more $$ from me that you would not hey with this new model. And everyone's happy. Unless you really are just doing this to push everyone over to subscriptions then in my scenario I'm there only one happy.

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 9:44 PM

Matthew Cillo:
My biggest concern is the lack of dynamic pricing for the hybrid approach.

This is a problem for us too. It's a hard one to solve, because the business models are so different, and there can be significant implications in how revenue is calculated, royalties shared, etc. 

Purchases are easy: Collect one price, sale is done, pay royalties. Subscriptions involve (for now) multiple business models; some are gambles (we buy a copy and hope you subscribe long enough to cover the royalty cost before canceling) and some are different models (we pay a percentage on the revenue collected, so less than we'd pay for a sold copy when the subscription is short, but much more when it is long).

It's just too complicated for dynamic pricing. Even if you could program the formulas into a computer, the explanation to each user would be unique, complicated, and would change based on the month. And there are lots of philosophical questions with financial implications.

Which is why Spotify doesn't give me credit for all the CDs I bought years ago... and Netflix doesn't credit me the movie tickets I bought when the films were new releases... and my Microsoft Office 365 subscription isn't cheaper because I've bought 5 copies of the whole Office suite with or for various computers over the years... 

And yet, if I did buy a one-time video-on-demand digital purchase of a single movie via Amazon's video service, it gets added into my video library even if it isn't part of Prime Video. (Though, if it is or becomes part of Prime Video, I don't get any credit or discount.)

We're watching what other companies do, and experimenting, and trying to find the optimal solution. Ultimately it seems like all these transitions work when the subscription becomes 'worth it' no matter what I paid in the past... which is why I caved and subscribed to Spotify, despite having spent so much on (some of) that music already on CD... and cassettes before that...

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 9:47 PM

Matthew:
Thanks for the detailed and well thought out post. As usual, it was helpful in understanding FL's thought process, vision, and strategy moving forward. Unfortunately, as is too often the case with FL's roll-outs, this post should have PROCEEDED the launch

I hear you, and we'll apply this feedback to future plans.

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 9:53 PM

James Hudson:
Why not do a kind of ‘pre-pub’ or ‘community pricing’ concept to guage support for new ideas and features (as well as books) and what people would be willing to pay?

We've tried a few things similar to this and had poor success. We've also tried to use Uservoice (https://logos.uservoice.com/forums/42823-logos-bible-software-7) to get user priorities, but it A) gets hijacked by big many-features-in-one-request posts that remove clarity about actual priorities, and B) tends to get people who votes once on their biggest pet peeve and then don't redistribute their votes when it isn't happening or even after it has happened. We do pay attention, though, and it does influence development.

You'd be surprised, though, how few people (as a percentage of users) actually engage Pre-Pub, CP, and UserVoice. While it's enough to make each work, it's not enough to really represent the user base (statistically).

Posts 325
Steve Farson | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 9:55 PM

I'm a Logos Now subscriber. I own 14K+ resources. Have not seen an email and unsure how this news is "good news" for me.

Who should I email to mention I have not seen an email. And does anyone have any insight how this Faithlife announcement will or can positively impact me as a very loyal customer?

Thanks much. 

Posts 1084
Sean | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 9:58 PM

Steve Farson:

I'm a Logos Now subscriber. I own 14K+ resources. Have not seen an email and unsure how this news is "good news" for me.

Who should I email to mention I have not seen an email. And does anyone have any insight how this Faithlife announcement will or can positively impact me as a very loyal customer?

Thanks much. 

Try posting in this thread, which is being monitored by FL staff: http://community.logos.com/forums/p/160492/957526.aspx#957526 They've responded to people with similar problems.

I don't have nearly as many resources as you, but in my mail I got a coupon that will basically pay for the Full Feature Set.

 Logos Now Subscriber -- 22/2/2018

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 9:59 PM

James Hudson:
the software industry (desktop) is not going to be rental (like tv has become) - many years later most people can only give 2 examples of software that has gone that way (Adobe and MS Office)

Really? I feel like EVERY software product is going this way -- because every subscription web site is really just software via subscription... and I can't think of many (any?) significant new, downloadable software packages... I find myself subscribing to sites, but never downloading anything but Google Chrome, Logos and Proclaim. :-)

James Hudson:
I think the future is in mobile apps.

I don't disagree; the bad news is that many users think mobile apps should be free... always. It's starting to change, particularly when paired with a subscription-based website, but mobile is notoriously hard to monetize on its own... before you even get to Apple's 30% cut... (Trust me, we don't have a 30% margin to begin with...)

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 10:13 PM

Mark Smith:

Bob, I am just amazed that you'd ask me to shell out $200 a month for access to less than 3,000 resources (Connect Ultimate).

Contents of the collections will change over time as we're able to negotiate different terms, as we get usage data and history, etc.

If you know you're going to be a 20 year user, then you probably do want to purchase content. But statistically most subscribers are NOT 20 year users, and some are very short users... in which case even the $200 level is a great deal.

Remember that we have users with dramatically different profiles, and subscription oriented users are often very different by nature. For example, imagine a user in their final year of school, who needs access to a lot of resources to finish their dissertation... a few months at $200 to get access to thousands of dollars in content might be a great deal for them.

In the same way, some publishers who are used to selling their commentary set for $1,000 -- even if you never end up reading all the volumes, or even all the pages in any one volume, they still get paid -- might balk at putting that $1,000 set into a $200 / month collection of hundreds of resources that someone might only subscribe to for 90 days....

We don't know how long subscriptions will last, or how it will all shake out. If you know something concrete -- like you'll use it for 20 years -- then you're equipped to make a good decision on the buy / rent question. (Just as you would in housing; the total of 20 years of rent might make buying an easy decision. But if you graduate in six months and don't know what city you'll move to for a job, then almost any monthly rent is smarter than buying a house.)

I can say that none of this is happening in a vacuum; if someone subscribes and then continues for a long time, we'd be foolish if we didn't find ways to reward that, to offer incentives to continue subscribing, etc. Maybe that's 'making permanent' some resources; maybe it's reducing the cost over time; maybe it's constantly adding / changing that collection so that 5 years from now your subscription include books not yet written today that you're glad to get as part of your subscription then.... maybe you won't use the same books for 20 years if you get fresh, new books every year....and maybe you'd value constantly fresh content over 'owning' the same content for 20 years. Or maybe not. We'll find out together.

Posts 1690
LogosEmployee
Bob Pritchett | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 10:16 PM

Kevin A. Purcell:
Early on nearly every email from Logos was about the new version features.

Yes, it became the tail wagging the dog almost immediately, especially for existing transactional customers... which wasn't our hope or plan, but is what happened.

We'll keep looking at the options... though one of the points I'm making is that the pace of new features may be more irregular, or 'lumpy', which makes those in-between releases harder to sell, and has other side effects....

Posts 132
LogosEmployee
Chris duMond (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 10:38 PM

Steve Farson:
Who should I email to mention I have not seen an email.

I got you Steve and I'll look into it. Some customers have had "undeliverable" emails come back to us (hit spam filters, unsubscribed from emails, etc) and we are working through those manually with Customer Service. There's also a handful of customers that have very special circumstances that we are also emailing manually with information specific to their situation. You may be in one of these categories. We are actively working through all those. 

Steve Farson:
And does anyone have any insight how this Faithlife announcement will or can positively impact me as a very loyal customer?

That depends on your unique situation. But I can tell you that nothing changes for your Logos Now subscription until 11/12/18 or your renewal date, whichever is later, and that you'll be able to enjoy the benefits of Connect right away. You'll also be receiving a promo code to use on an upgraded library and/or feature set (Logos 7 or Logos 8 when it comes out), or an upgraded Connect subscription. 

Posts 20
Sojourner | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 10:53 PM

Bob Pritchett:
Which is why Spotify doesn't give me credit for all the CDs I bought years ago... and Netflix doesn't credit me the movie tickets I bought when the films were new releases... and my Microsoft Office 365 subscription isn't cheaper because I've bought 5 copies of the whole Office suite with or for various computers over the years...

I'm sorry, but those are completely different scenarios. It is unfortunate that you view them the same way.

Spotify doesn't sell CDs. Netflix doesn't sell movie tickets. Office 365 is a comparison between software to software, not content to content. FL is an a position where they are selling content and renting the same content. The closest comparison is Amazon Video. 

Bob Pritchett:
And yet, if I did buy a one-time video-on-demand digital purchase of a single movie via Amazon's video service, it gets added into my video library even if it isn't part of Prime Video. (Though, if it is or becomes part of Prime Video, I don't get any credit or discount.)

This argument makes sense, save two details. Prime Video rotates an increasing library of content and my purchases do not equate to a significant portion of the Prime Video library. I would risk saying that many of us do not see the size of FC library (starter or essentials) as worth it, because we own a significant portion of the content already.

I did a brief comparison of FC Starter and Logos Starter and it looks to be nearly the same content. The fact that the number of books in the FC and Standard libraries match means that they probably are the same content. If they are indeed the same content, then any FC subscriber should never purchase a Standard library! Your subscription model discourages big purchases. Suddenly, the comparison between Prime Video and FC becomes a contrast. At this point, what makes dynamic pricing so difficult, since it appears to be no different than upgrading between libraries?

I truly appreciate the candor that has been expressed on this forum. It gives me a lot of faith in FL as a company. If I am wrong and the libraries are different, would it be possible to get an easy way to see the difference?

Posts 1805
LogosEmployee
Phil Gons (Faithlife) | Forum Activity | Replied: Thu, Feb 22 2018 11:18 PM

Matthew Cillo:

I did a brief comparison of FC Starter and Logos Starter and it looks to be nearly the same content. The fact that the number of books in the FC and Standard libraries match means that they probably are the same content. If they are indeed the same content, then any FC subscriber should never purchase a Standard library! Your subscription model discourages big purchases. Suddenly, the comparison between Prime Video and FC becomes a contrast. At this point, what makes dynamic pricing so difficult, since it appears to be no different than upgrading between libraries?

I truly appreciate the candor that has been expressed on this forum. It gives me a lot of faith in FL as a company. If I am wrong and the libraries are different, would it be possible to get an easy way to see the difference?

You're correct. There's currently a one-to-one relationship between the following:

  • Logos 7 Basic Library and Logos Cloud Basic in Faithlife Connect Basic
  • Logos 7 Starter Library and Logos Cloud Starter in Faithlife Connect Starter
  • Logos 7 Bronze Library and Logos Cloud Essentials in Faithlife Connect Essentials
  • Logos 7 Silver Library and Logos Cloud Standard in Faithlife Connect Standard
  • Logos 7 Gold Library and Logos Cloud Plus in Faithlife Connect Plus
  • Logos 7 Platinum Library and Logos Cloud Professional in Faithlife Connect Professional
  • Logos 7 Diamond Library and Logos Cloud Premium in Faithlife Connect Premium
  • Logos 7 Portfolio Library and Logos Cloud Ultimate in Faithlife Connect Ultimate

That will likely change when Logos 8 comes out. They won't necessarily stay in lockstep. It was the easiest way of improving the quality of Logos Cloud libraries when we did the Cloud relaunch last year.

But presently, for example, a Logos 7 Bronze or higher owner would gain no new Logos base package library resources by getting Faithlife Connect Essentials.

Posts 492
Richard Villanueva | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:18 AM

Bob Pritchett:

Richard Villanueva:
many new users are accustomed to the subscription model

I'm glad to hear you believe this too...

Richard Villanueva:
This subscription method may make Logos "accessible" to a new community of the "average" church membership since the high spending users (like myself and several other forum users) may be reaching a slowed pace of purchasing power.

That is our hope.

Richard Villanueva:
I personally feel like the LN switch to FLConnect was abrupt

We are definitely getting that message loud and clear. :-)

Richard Villanueva:
The challenge is for those that anticipated LN to continue on indefinitely

...what we hope we addressed in the emails directly to the individuals involved. Again, if we haven't satisfied you with that, let us know.

thanks for the response! FWIW, my personal reaction was "woah, that's new! Surprise!"

Then it went "huh, not sure that's what I want... But I still have LN, so, ok. Probably won't renew after, I got most of that stuff already."

And finally, "Oh wait, a credit towards L8?? Sweet!"  I did not expect LN to continue indefinitely. And as far as the abruptness, that feeling went away when I saw that my LN subcription was not in danger, but would complete itself at the end of what I had paid for.  No loss here. Subscriptions have a sense of temporality to me, And so it is ending.

And that's my story... I'm fine because I chose to own my L7 features and LN was about perks and discounts and what not. I've received my money's worth and now in a sense, have gotten it all back with the coupon! So I'm kinda ok with it all.

if I stopped upgrading right now, I'd still have a phenomenal bible study tool for years to come and more pages than I could read in a lifetime. That's what I have paid for. But school and new research and discovery will have me purchasing plenty new books In the future (new required reading list is on its way next week!)

I'm hopeful that by investing time, money and honest input FL will create content that will be useful enough to cause me to support them with more purchases/supscriptions/direct cerebral downloads... Or whatever is next.

MBPro'12 / i5 / 8GB // 3.0 Scholars (Purple) / L6 & L7 Platinum, M&E Platinum, Anglican Bronze, P&C Silver / L8 Platinum, Academic Pro

Posts 59
Westie | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 12:45 AM

Thanks for taking the time to explain.  I have spent around 15k over the years, and have been blessed with access to top resources, and powerful software tools that have helped be dive deeper into the word of God.  I plan to continue to add resources to my library because I love the platform.  Logos now did not make much sense to me, so I think that your decision to change to better defined product offerings is wise.  I can understand why some people are upset.  As is the case with government, after a "program" is rolled out, it is very hard to take it away from people who are benefiting form it, no matter how unsustainable it is to continue to offer (i.e. Obamacare...)

Its hard for me to get too worked up about this since the goal of all these "books" and "features is to dig deeper into the bible and apply it to my life, and teach it to others, for the glory of God! 

I am truly grateful for the hard work that you and your employees put into making Logos so great.  I am not a Preacher, I am a CPA, so if it were not for Logos I would not have the time, the training or the resources to go as deep as I do! You have been fair and I trust that you will continue to be fair. 

God Bless

Mark

Posts 682
Kevin A Lewis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 1:27 AM

Bob Pritchett:

Really? I feel like EVERY software product is going this way ...

And what a stupid idea it is too.

I can see this is led by corporates who like to spread costs across years, leasing cars, computers,  property, even now software. But for the individual this is downright insane, and poor stewardship of financial resources.

Actually even for corporates the only lasting advantage is flexibility, not cost. And there are few other benefits.

I can understand providing the subs model for those that want it, however. It doesn't make it a good idea or even right.

Having said that I appreciate your attempts to ensure the longevity of the company for your staff and customers. I do understand change is always here and we need to constantly re-evaluate what we do.

I also appreciate your communications - but do take on board the feelings of the loyal herd!

Shalom

Posts 313
Thinking | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 1:31 AM

Bob Pritchett:
We also need to support the pure transactional model for people who want to 'buy it, own it, and not have to pay again.' That's what we've always offered, and what we plan to continue to offer.

That is a very worrisome statement. It is far less assuring than statements you have made in the past.

Posts 221
André Kamphuis | Forum Activity | Replied: Fri, Feb 23 2018 1:38 AM

Bob Pritchett:
I hope an upgrade to Logos 8 will seem worthwhile; that's a determination you'll have to make once you see the value.

Bob, do you expect Logos 8 to be released before our Logos Now subscription expires (November 2018)?   Otherwise it would be hard to know whether we should use our credit to buy the Logos 7 Full Feature set or to wait for the features that will come with Logos 8.

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