Can some Accordance users help me?

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Posted: Sun, Feb 25 2018 2:30 PM

I do not own Accordance and cannot justify adding it to my budget. However, I am very interested in comparing features between software as a prod to see how to improve the software I do own. People keep mentioning things they like about Accordance in general terms "better tagging of commentaries", "searches not possible in Logos". ... Would some of you please give me concrete examples of what is tagged in Accordance commentaries that is not tagged in Logos or what searches are possible in Accordance that are not possible in Logos. I would appreciate it. Thanks.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 2:58 PM

MJ,

I think the specific reference you are referring to are the SIL Exegetical Summaries. Accordance tagged the bible and  lexicon references so they open to the resource, if you have that resource it in your library. They tagged BAGD to BDAG which can be very useful.

The same commentaries in Logos are not tagged to open the resource, but pop up with the name of the resource. Accordance did a better job on this commentary set imo. I own it in Logos and am content. Logos put their effort in their bible guides.

There are also many Accordance resources where footnotes do not pop up the referenced resource where the Logos version does;  sometimes because it is not yet available in Accordance.

I am being objective here and not sure either company appreciates that. If someone wants to praise one over the other, they are welcome to do so. No software is perfect for everyone and FL finds a way to create their own turmoil that Accordance wisely avoids.

There are searches Logos can do that Accordance cannot do due to the extensive additional tagging of some of the biblical texts and some that may be easier to do in Accordance. Both have strengths. 

FL is getting beat up a bit right now due to their recent communication regarding Logos Now, so things may look greener on the other side of the wall, and actually may be for some.

Both are great software. I think Accordance does a better job of communicating with their customers and stays on task better than FL. Some customers find comfort in that.

The difficult issue for customers is that they are investing in a platform; once invested switching is not inexpensive. I have both as well as BibleWorks and am bless by them all.

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Robert M. Warren | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 3:20 PM

MJ. Smith:
I am very interested in comparing features between software as a prod to see how to improve the software I do own.

Thanks for doing this.

Win 10 Android 8.1 Fire OS 5

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scooter | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 4:06 PM

John Fidel:
I am being objective here and not sure either company appreciates that. If someone wants to praise one over the other, they are welcome to do so

Thank you, John for your calm objectivity reflected in your writing.

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Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 4:25 PM

One I appreciate is the instant offline lookup of greek and Hebrew words on mobile. 

I just press and hold on a word and this pops up. Instantly.

Note parsing and a gloss. Below it automatically loads the text of your top divtionary

you can scroll the pop up to read the whole article, or click Amplify to go to the dicti article. 

note also the search button. I can search the book I’m reading for the word, lemma, root, morphological tag, or strong number. Instantly. And offline. 

And thr Greek and english texts scroll perfectly in sync, when reading a text... or when displaying search results. 

I cant do any of that on Logos. I can’t even search my bible!!??

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Clint Cozier | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 6:06 PM

MJ,

Accordance has the INFER command which compares two different texts or collection of texts looking for intertextual relationships. Nothing close to it in any other software package. If intertextuality is the question, Accordance and the INFER command is the answer. Accordance also has a SINGLE SEARCH INTERFACE (well, two interfaces if you count the command line) in which you build all kinds of searches. I thought the MORPH QUERY interface in Logos was headed that direction, but it looks destined to me to be just one among a cluttered collection of search dialogues. Once you "get" building construct searches in Accordance, then things like syntax searches open up much easier than in Logos. For my work, the Morph Query brought Logos close to Accordance when doing my bread and butter searches (mostly Greek, Hebrew every now and then), but for detail work (or things like INFER and questions of intertextuality) Accordance is my tool of choice.

On the other hand, LOGOS has perfected the art of the metatag which I've grown to love. Thing like searching for constructions within passages where Jesus is the speaker are easy in Logos, and I can't do anything like a Milestone search in Accordance. I was leary of all the metatagging when it started to appear, but I admit I've grown to depend on that set of tools now.

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Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 7:30 PM

MJ, you (and the Logos team) might appreciate an insider's perspective here 

https://www.accordancebible.com/forums/topic/18488-had-the-logos-guys-give-me-a-demo/#entry112839

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Justin Gatlin | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 7:47 PM

Clint Cozier:

MJ,

Accordance has the INFER command which compares two different texts or collection of texts looking for intertextual relationships. Nothing close to it in any other software package. If intertextuality is the question, Accordance and the INFER command is the answer. Accordance also has a SINGLE SEARCH INTERFACE (well, two interfaces if you count the command line) in which you build all kinds of searches. I thought the MORPH QUERY interface in Logos was headed that direction, but it looks destined to me to be just one among a cluttered collection of search dialogues. Once you "get" building construct searches in Accordance, then things like syntax searches open up much easier than in Logos. For my work, the Morph Query brought Logos close to Accordance when doing my bread and butter searches (mostly Greek, Hebrew every now and then), but for detail work (or things like INFER and questions of intertextuality) Accordance is my tool of choice.

On the other hand, LOGOS has perfected the art of the metatag which I've grown to love. Thing like searching for constructions within passages where Jesus is the speaker are easy in Logos, and I can't do anything like a Milestone search in Accordance. I was leary of all the metatagging when it started to appear, but I admit I've grown to depend on that set of tools now.

What does INFER do in Accordance that INTERTEXT does not in Logos?

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Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 8:02 PM

MJ, a lot of the time people talk about Accordance being more nimble or quick. To give you an idea of what they mean, I've done a screen capture of:

#1 Accordance

#2 Logos

... doing similar functions. In both I am using the curser to hover over words in the original language, letting it light up the parallel words in the english and showing parsing information. If I was reading a text in greek, this would be something I would be doing constantly to quickly understand how the passage is working. I then triple click on a word to go to the dictionary article, then do a search, and finally demonstrate synchronous scrolling. In each of these use cases, which are 100% core tasks for me and all the Bible College students I work with - Accordance is noticeably more nimble. Actually the screen capture hid the difference slightly, making Accordance seem slower than it is - in real life the difference is more pronounced.

I'm running a MacBook Pro retina, which was the top model exactly 3 years ago. Not cutting edge but comparable or better to what many of Logos' potential customers would be using, I would expect. 

This nimble / agile nature is what people prefer about Accordance much of the time. Their first time using Logos can feel like someone has poured honey into the computer and slowed it. right. down. with. a. slight. pause. in. every. single. task. 

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 10:53 PM

John Fidel:
SIL Exegetical Summaries. Accordance tagged the bible and  lexicon references so they open to the resource, if you have that resource it in your library. 

The same tagging did exist in some Exegetical Summaries in Logos (in Joel for example, if I remember right), but after an upgrade it was removed.

I guess it was some newbie who didn't know about that good feature cleaned tagging to worse. (some far side comics come into my mind)

John Fidel:
 They tagged BAGD to BDAG which can be very useful.

This has been suggested to FL many times.

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 10:53 PM

Andrew116:
This nimble / agile nature is what people prefer about Accordance much of the time.

Question - is this true on a PC as well as a Mac? I can explain it if it is Mac only.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 10:57 PM

Veli Voipio:
The same tagging did exist in some Exegetical Summaries in Logos (in Joel for example, if I remember right), but after an upgrade it was removed.

Was it reported as a bug? If I'd noticed it, I would have reported it with as close to choice language as a landlubber can muster.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 11:01 PM

MJ. Smith:

Andrew116:
This nimble / agile nature is what people prefer about Accordance much of the time.

Question - is this true on a PC as well as a Mac? I can explain it if it is Mac only.

I have only ever used either on a Mac, but I would say this agility difference is sufficiently widely recognised to make me guess it applies on both platforms. Any PC users want to comment? (Do people still use non-Mac computers these days?)

This video is kind of old, but suggests the difference holds on Windows. And it seems like this has been a deliberate strategy from that company for years:

"When we develop a feature, if it runs too slow for us, or seems to place a drag on the program, it is regularly optimized or retooled before it ever reaches the hands of the beta testers." (I won't link to the source of this but I'm sure you can find it)

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Veli Voipio | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 11:11 PM

MJ. Smith:

Veli Voipio:
The same tagging did exist in some Exegetical Summaries in Logos (in Joel for example, if I remember right), but after an upgrade it was removed.

Was it reported as a bug? If I'd noticed it, I would have reported it with as close to choice language as a landlubber can muster.

My last comment in this thread https://community.logos.com/forums/p/148119/928192.aspx#928192 complains about it but I did not report it as a bug. 

Gold package, and original language material and ancient text material, SIL and UBS books, discourse Hebrew OT and Greek NT. PC with Windows 8.1

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MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Feb 25 2018 11:33 PM

Thank you everyone. I was aware of the INFER from a text processing course. I suspect similar code was used to develop the Ancient Literature dataset. As for the others, it will take me a bit to mull things over ...

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

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m wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 26 2018 2:22 AM

MJ. Smith:
Question - is this true on a PC as well as a Mac? I can explain it if it is Mac only.

Frankly, I don't see tremendous differences on the Windows side. For example, on Logos, a simple Hebrew morph search in BHS (VbP3M) is one the order of 0.1 sec to return over 1000 results. So hardly sluggish. Logos also does the right thing to display some reuslts practically instantly whuile it is still loading others. 

I do use it on an SSD which probably helps alot. There may be folks who have lag in start up and processing that really need to consider hardware upgrades to solve the issues they are having.

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Andrew116 | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 26 2018 2:49 AM

The videos I uploaded were on an SSD. 

The fact that you can see some results load while others are yet to load speaks to some lag that must be more than 0.1 second. But it’s not just the time to do the search once you have pressed the button, it is also the speed of the contextual menu that allows you to get to the point of pressing the button. Plus the general snappiness of the interface and the responsiveness of hovering over words and corresponding words being lit up. 

The good news for Logos is that if they can get on top of this they will have destroyed 1 of Accordance’s 3 competitive advantages, potentially their biggest one. (The other two are certain advanced searches [im told], and the offline use of mobile apps documentled in one of my earlier posts in this thread. 

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m wilson | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 26 2018 4:22 AM

Andrew116:
The fact that you can see some results load while others are yet to load speaks to some lag that must be more than 0.1 second. But it’s not just the time to do the search once you have pressed the button, it is also the speed of the contextual menu that allows you to get to the point of pressing the button. Plus the general snappiness of the interface and the responsiveness of hovering over words and corresponding words being lit up. 

Yes, you are right. I generally use Logos for secondary source work, so it really doesn't impact me.

Fo original text, I must say that I still prefer BW over Accordance or Logos, as it is very focused and very fast. 

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Clint Cozier | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 26 2018 5:16 AM

Justin,

INTERTEXT simply is another metatag search, Logos looking up reference tags that have been embedded in a text. INFER on the other hand is a "cluster" search that looks for a defined number of lemma or surface form matches permitting  intervening non-matching worlds (if desired) between any two bodies of texts using similar tagging. INFER has an incredible amount of granularity built in; I can decide whether I'm searching for a string of 5 words in a specific order, or a cluster of 6 lemmas allowing for one intervening non-matching lemma in any particular order. Any decent software package will give the obvious hits, but used properly INFER goes way beyond. 

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Francis | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Feb 26 2018 5:23 AM

Clint, I read a blog in INFER and was under the impression that it was just a different approach to tagged texts as opposed to an algorithm that can work with any original language resource that is encoded with lemma and inflection identification. For instance, it seemed that it ran mostly between Bible and other (select) resources but I read nothing about comparing two other original language resources (for instance, two Greek biographies of Plutarch). Would you elaborate on whether I misread that or not? Still trying to understand in what ways it differs from what can be done in Logos (taking the point that it offers some interesting "granulatity"). 

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