As Popeye would say....

"That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more." I have uninstalled Logos 4 from my office computer at the church building and will go back to using Libronix 3.0g (which I never really stopped using anyway). The list of reasons is long but the most prominnent ones are:

1. The seemingly endless updates accompanied by reindexing that tie my system every time I have work to do. Even postponing and restarting when I am done for the day didn't help. I came in this morning after restarting indexing last night and had a message to restart Logos which then triggered another reindexing that tied up my system making it virtually unusable.

2. Long waits for the software to load even when I have Internet access and auto downloads disabled. (45 seconds to 1-1/2 minutes as opposed to 8 to 10 seconds for Libronix 3.

3. An exponential increase in the complexitiy of using the software for my everyday tasks such as lesson and sermon preparation and daily Bible study.

4. The move to a extremely nonintuitive (for me) way of accomplishing anything.

5. Sluggish and snaillike performance for any task when compared to doing the same thing in Libronix 3.

Whether or not I leave the software on my home system remains to be seen. It is three generations newer hardware with a PCI express graphics card vs integrated graphics. So it doesn't seem to be as affected by the bloat and resource hogging as my office computer. However those advantages don't overcome the user interface issues and the complexity of the software overall. When the rubber meets the road, I really didn't gain anything with Logos 4.0 that I couldn't live without. And I have spent more time waiting on the software and trying to learn the new way of doing things than I have getting any actual work done. My days are too busy and my schedule too full to waste all of that time.

Overall I rank this purchase among the top five worst investments I have ever made in computer software and hardware. And with 30 years experience in the use and maintencae of computers (pre IBM PC) that is saying a lot.

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Comments

Jacob Hantla

I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience. Quite different than mine. I'd rank Logos & Logos4 in particular as the #1 best investment in computer software I have ever made.

I could understand that on older hardware with the software running slowly, it could be a very hard piece of software to use. I think I too would be frustrated if I had to wait for everything. If anything once you start using it you should find it more intuitive (you'll have to unlearn some L3 ways of doing things) and less complex....at least that's my experience.

Kevin Taylor

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126661#Comment_126661

I too am sorry you have had such a poor experience. Like Jacob though I would also say in the same breath that this is my number one most significant software purchase ever. As an IT Pro that is saying alot for me. With the exception of my trusty Windows 7 OS there is no software that I use more nor is there any that has geater value.

My level of use is not yet advanced in Logos 4, I'd say that I'm an Intermediate level user at this point due to time issues but I have not had the barrage of technical issues you are reporting. I truly hope things work out for you in the end. If Logos 4 ends up blessing you even half as much as it has me that would be awesome.

Robert M. Warren

As I don't use Logos in any professional capacity (e.g. Pastor or seminary student), and as I enjoy tinkering around with computers, the L4 experience for me has been a rather enjoyable community experience (particularly since I don't have a large sum of money tied up in it); I feel as if I actually know some of the frequent posters in the forum. That being said, I've often wondered about L4 users who have the sacred and overwhelming responsibility of shepherding a flock, and my sympathy for them increases.

Pastor Bob has to do what he has to do. Maybe the best thing for those in similar circumstances is to set L4 aside and come back in a few months to assess stability, etc., and maybe discover that the money wasn't wasted after all; maybe just prematurely spent.

DMB

Personally I agree with Bob S. But after demanding L4 leave my house forthwith, after a couple of months of nice headache-free Bible study, I decided to let L4 come back. But only if (1) he didn't mess around updating etc. and (2) he could just show a standard set of resources that I frequently use. Kind of like having an older but nicely designed Jag in the garage. No searches. No notes. And highlighting as long as I don't mind loosing it. All serious work gets done on L3. Seriously (!), L3 was and still is a great software product and the Logos resources are absolutely great! My L4 upgrade got me some nice L3 resources. No complants.

MJ. Smith

Overall I rank this purchase among the top five worst investments I have ever made in computer software and hardware.

Remember that you didn't invest in software, you invested in resources. Logos 4 does have a number of advantages but still has some performance issues and incomplete functions. I can easily understand why you could have a frustrating experience. I do hope, however, that you come back in 6-8 months and try it again when most of these issues should be resolved.

Roger Feenstra

Overall I rank this purchase among the top five worst investments I have ever made in computer software and hardware. And with 30 years experience in the use and maintencae of computers (pre IBM PC) that is saying a lot.

I can understand your frustration. Fortunately, I never had the L3 on my computer. This is the first software that I've used consistently in a long, long time. It is slow, but it does so many other awesome things for me. Nevertheless, parts of it are not the best. Like Notes (for me,Notes are a disaster). I haven't used Notes for a few weeks and I still have to review how to make a new note. They are not intuitive; Very cumbersome and slow. Why can't I just right click on a word and make a note? I still like Logos 4 though, because the strengths outweigh its weaknesses. It does keep improving.

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126710#Comment_126710

Personally I agree with Bob S. But after demanding L4 leave my house forthwith, after a couple of months of nice headache-free Bible study, I decided to let L4 come back. But only if (1) he didn't mess around updating etc. and (2) he could just show a standard set of resources that I frequently use. Kind of like having an older but nicely designed Jag in the garage.

Now THAT was funny! [:D] (i didn't even mind the mixing of metaphors!)

Bob, i don't blame you--not at all--but I won't be joining you. I wonder if the difference is partly that my laptop handles L4 all right. I know that in 1-2 years, the bargain computers will run this baby like there is no tomorrow. (whatever that means) AND many of the "missing features" some of us want will exist, too. But in the meantime L4 will serve me just fine, AND I have gained resources AND very cool new features (like clippings) . . .

MJ. Smith

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126845#Comment_126845

Basically you can - once you have one or more note files open. Notes need to be organized to be useful in the long run.

Roger Feenstra

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126853#Comment_126853

Basically you can - once you have one or more note files open.

I know. I'll play around with it some more. I know that it's not that difficult, I'm just slow

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126853#Comment_126853

Bob, I agree with you all the current problems with Logos 4 were too much for me, I went back to Libronix 3 about 2-3 weeks ago, and what a joy!

Like you I use the software a lot each day and with Logos 4 it was like someone kept throwing up these brick walls.

However, my upgrade from Libronix 3 Gold to Logos 4 Platinum is still one of the best buys I have ever made in researce books. The price I paid for the books I got have made Libronix 3 better than ever before, so I am happy with what I have right now.

After using Logos 4 for a while there is no doubt in my mind that once they get all the features back and the bugs worked out it will be a better program for me, but I am not going to wait, I have too much to do right now with Libronix 3 and I was tired of being a Logos 4 tester!

Relax go back to Libronix 3 and enjoy what is currently the best program I have ever seen! And if you were like me enjoy all your new books from your upgrade!

Remember there are a lot of people in the same boat that you are in, but most of them will never bother to tell anyone, you are not alone in frustration. By the way, I believe Logos is frustrated too, they never saw all of this coming! I want to give them time, I believe they will recover and learn from this whole thing and in the long run we will have a better program, it is just going to take longer than we expected!

In Christ,

Jim

Bob Schlessman

All of your comments are good points and well taken. I suspect that I will come back to L4 in a few months when the stability is there and the constant updates and reindexing are not. As I said in my first post, I will probably leave it on my home system just so I can continue to scale the learning curve and monitor the stability issues. As for the resources I gained with L4, I was able to load anything I really expect to use on a regular basis onto L3. All of the other new resources are not of any use to me, at least not on a regular basis. And as stated above, L3 meets all of my needs without all of the headaches.

Jim VanSchoonhoven

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126878#Comment_126878

So Bob I am not sure what you meant on your last post, did you pay for an upgrade or cross over to Logos 4, or did you just get the free upgrade?

I wish I could load anything I really expected to use on regular basis into L3, my Library would be about twice the size it is currently and I would be out at least 3000.00 dollars, most likely more. I love books and I know there are a number of commentaries I would love to have and would use almost daily if I had them and they are expensive!

My real point in my first point it that you are not alone in your feelings, you are doing the right thing, drop Logos 4 for a while and enjoy what works!

In Christ,

Jim

BillS

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126961#Comment_126961

I wish I could load anything I really expected to use on regular basis into L3

For the most part, I believe you can... if you have a package, use the reverse crossgrade script at:
http://blog.logos.com/mt-cgi/mt-search.cgi?search=crossgrade&IncludeBlogs=1&limit=20

For individual resources after an L4 resources update; give L4 a chance to sync back the the server (or double click on the sync icon); then sync licenses on V3; then run the resource update script at:
http://www.logos.com/media/update/ResourceAutoUpdate.lbxupd

Blessings!

Bob Schlessman

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126961#Comment_126961

So Bob I am not sure what you meant on your last post, did you pay for an upgrade or cross over to Logos 4, or did you just get the free upgrade?

I paid for the upgrade Jim. But they released an upgrade to L3 that included many of the resources that are new in L4. Not all of them mind you but a large number of resources that I had been wanting for some time.

Rick

"That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more."

Don't get me wrong, I love Logos 4 as a product but there is something very unfortunate about the Logos discussion forums. Since you can not see me or hear my tone of voice, please be assured that I am saying this with love and not terribly disgruntled, simply in a slight head spin. [8-)]

And yes I know that we are in Logos' house here, that is why I have made my decision. We either abide by their rules as guests or simply decide not to come to their house and visit if we think they have too stringent rules. I once was helping a friend move into house one time and we had to constantly take our clean shoes off before entering the house and put them back on when going back to the truck. Try that while trying to move a refrigerator or oven! Needless to say, I won't help him again.

I truly hate posting here because you never know if someone is going to pull out a rule book and start reading. I know that this is the moderator's job and I don't blame them, I blame Logos. Please see examples below.

I honestly think that the moderation of these forums is becoming way to picky and I'm pretty much leaving them behind. I also use a second progam and at least they are very tolerant of what is written on their forums, anywhere from help requests, kudos and complaints to flamers trying to promote Logos on their forums. I am not talking about "I would like to see <insert program name> do something similar to Logos". I am talking about comments such as "Program X is horrible and Logos is far superior". A matter of opinion and inappropriate for their discussion groups but they take it well.

Instances here that I honestly feel are on the silly side:

1. A person wants to help others out by at his own expense giving away part of his library a great thing to do! But whoa, hold your horses that is just an unthinkable concept and in violation of rules. Such a tragedy. ( http://community.logos.com/forums/t/16705.aspx ).

2. Nathan asked a question about supplementing his Charles Stanley works that Logos sales on their web site with another Libronix collection by Charles Stanley sold by T.N. and as far as I can see his post was deleted (he did not mention the other company's name, just mentioned their licensed work. If Logos has made what they feel are bad decisions on licensing and marketing they should just swallow it and not punish the consumer for asking questions about their product! Their perceived bad decision or change in marketing strategy should not be held against us, we had nothing to do with the decision.

Edited: I stand corrected on #2... Sorry

3. After Nathan's post (repeating that everything mentioned was either Logos or Libronix resources) another thread is being used to suggest books about end times that are not even available in Libronix or Logos but none of the moderators seem to care about that. I am not going to mention the thread because I don't see the harm in it.

What is up Logos? You are either the number 1 or number 2 giant in Bible software with no one else really coming close, from what I can tell. I suggest that if a discussion is relative to your product, let it live and only modify/delete those that are not. I'm sorry, but I don't see a search engine bot picking up BW, WS, TN, ES or any other product is going to cause you to collapse.

Again, I know the tone sounds harsh but I am trying to make a simple point. As a layperson, it really does not matter to me if Logos has superior language tools over the above mentioned companies. I simply want to dig deeper and feel a lot more comfortable with a company that is not going take offense to every minor mention of another program or book that is not available in Logos. In my opinion, we are all seekers of the Kingdom of God and these forums, within reason, could be an awesome tool for recommendations to others if there is an awesome study tool available somewhere else either in print or (gulp) another program since several of us own more thn one.

Thanks for letting me vent and God bless you all! I love you all! Of course, I'll be checking in to get all of your awesome update details and such! [:D]

-Rick

Todd Phillips

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/128826#Comment_128826

2. Nathan asked a question about supplementing his Charles Stanley works that Logos sales on their web site with another Libronix collection by Charles Stanley sold by T.N. and as far as I can see his post was deleted (he did not mention the other company's name, just mentioned their licensed work. If Logos has made what they feel are bad decisions on licensing and marketing they should just swallow it and not punish the consumer for asking questions about their product! Their perceived bad decision or change in marketing strategy should not be held against us, we had nothing to do with the decision.

That thread is still here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/16931.aspx

Perhaps your vent should be directed at the forum design that made it difficult for you to find the thread you wanted [:P] . I hate searching for things in this forum.

Also, I think you would have been better off starting a new thread for your post, as your venting really has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread. Other than the Popeye reference, of course.

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/128834#Comment_128834

That thread is still here: http://community.logos.com/forums/t/16931.aspx Perhaps your vent should be directed at the forum design that made it difficult for you to find the thread you wanted . I hate searching for things in this forum

Ooops! Missed that one!

Also, I think you would have been better off starting a new thread for your post, as your venting really has nothing to do with the original topic of this thread. Other than the Popeye reference, of course.

My line of thought is that it did/does relate to the OP because even though the forums are not integrated into the program itself, it is still a part of he overall experience of owning Logos 4. The original poster mentioned parts of the Logos4 experience that he did not like/enjoy and I just added to it.

I know it is very subjective as to whether the forums are a part of the overall experience, but with Logos moving to a web based application from the older newsgroups in harmony with the release of Logos 4 I believe it was their intent to make it a part of it.

But, let us not argue the silly things, I jut wanted to let you know why I posted where I did and thank you for pointing out my mistake. I sure enough missed it on my search! I almost mentioned another example but caught my mistake. Another topic had been edited and moved to another forum, boy, that would have looked pretty bad!

Thanks again Todd! [Y]

Jacob Hantla

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/128826#Comment_128826

"That's all I can stands, I can't stands no more."

Don't get me wrong, I love Logos 4 as a product but there is something very unfortunate about the Logos discussion forums. Since you can not see me or hear my tone of voice, please be assured that I am saying this with love and not terribly disgruntled, simply in a slight head spin.

And yes I know that we are in Logos' house here, that is why I have made my decision. We either abide by their rules as guests or simply decide not to come to their house and visit if we think they have too stringent rules. I once was helping a friend move into house one time and we had to constantly take our clean shoes off before entering the house and put them back on when going back to the truck. Try that while trying to move a refrigerator or oven! Needless to say, I won't help him again.

I truly hate posting here because you never know if someone is going to pull out a rule book and start reading. I know that this is the moderator's job and I don't blame them, I blame Logos. Please see examples below.

I honestly think that the moderation of these forums is becoming way to picky and I'm pretty much leaving them behind. I also use a second progam and at least they are very tolerant of what is written on their forums, anywhere from help requests, kudos and complaints to flamers trying to promote Logos on their forums. I am not talking about "I would like to see <insert program name> do something similar to Logos". I am talking about comments such as "Program X is horrible and Logos is far superior". A matter of opinion and inappropriate for their discussion groups but they take it well.

Instances here that I honestly feel are on the silly side:

1. A person wants to help others out by at his own expense giving away part of his library a great thing to do! But whoa, hold your horses that is just an unthinkable concept and in violation of rules. Such a tragedy. ( http://community.logos.com/forums/t/16705.aspx ).

2. Nathan asked a question about supplementing his Charles Stanley works that Logos sales on their web site with another Libronix collection by Charles Stanley sold by T.N. and as far as I can see his post was deleted (he did not mention the other company's name, just mentioned their licensed work. If Logos has made what they feel are bad decisions on licensing and marketing they should just swallow it and not punish the consumer for asking questions about their product! Their perceived bad decision or change in marketing strategy should not be held against us, we had nothing to do with the decision.

Edited: I stand corrected on #2... Sorry

3. After Nathan's post (repeating that everything mentioned was either Logos or Libronix resources) another thread is being used to suggest books about end times that are not even available in Libronix or Logos but none of the moderators seem to care about that. I am not going to mention the thread because I don't see the harm in it.

What is up Logos? You are either the number 1 or number 2 giant in Bible software with no one else really coming close, from what I can tell. I suggest that if a discussion is relative to your product, let it live and only modify/delete those that are not. I'm sorry, but I don't see a search engine bot picking up BW, WS, TN, ES or any other product is going to cause you to collapse.

Again, I know the tone sounds harsh but I am trying to make a simple point. As a layperson, it really does not matter to me if Logos has superior language tools over the above mentioned companies. I simply want to dig deeper and feel a lot more comfortable with a company that is not going take offense to every minor mention of another program or book that is not available in Logos. In my opinion, we are all seekers of the Kingdom of God and these forums, within reason, could be an awesome tool for recommendations to others if there is an awesome study tool available somewhere else either in print or (gulp) another program since several of us own more thn one.

Thanks for letting me vent and God bless you all! I love you all! Of course, I'll be checking in to get all of your awesome update details and such!

-Rick

[Y]

MJ. Smith

Overall I rank this purchase among the top five worst investments I have ever made in computer software and hardware. And with 30 years experience in the use and maintencae of computers (pre IBM PC) that is saying a lot.

Ah - I can tell you weren't adventuresome in software ... I'd have no problem coming up with at least 20 programs that were far worse. But then I do have more than a decade of experience on you.[;)]

Friedrich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/126878#Comment_126878

when the stability is there and the constant updates and reindexing are not

i am not entirely sure what the big problem is here (and I am not saying this in any way as condemnatory). While I have an "okay" computer, it is not terrific, but I don't seem too hampered by the downloads and indexing. In some ways I like having the automatic downloading--I used to hate having to log in to Logos via the update, and then also navigate my way to an (unituitive) page on the website for resource updates that were for some reason not included on the update tool. Now it all comes to me without looking it it.

Sure, I guess I find indexing a bit of a nuisance, but I have just learned to ignore it, or turn it off until I am ready for it to continue. I sure like have "instant" searches, though. So, while I do understand the "annoyance factor" regarding indexing, it doesn't rise to the level of feeling like I can't use L4--and the automatic downloads have alleviated a former annoyance factor from L3.

Robert Pavich

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/129565#Comment_129565

and the automatic downloads have alleviated a former annoyance factor from L3.

Dan,

not to mention alleviating the "where's the MacArthur life works disk!" panic after a reformat... [;)]

Rick

https://community.logos.com/discussion/comment/129565#Comment_129565

My laptop is actually pretty old in computer years and my desktop is fairly new. While the downloads are never really a problem for me because I have a pretty quick internet connection, the laptop is very noticeably slower and takes about three or four hours to index. I think that I read somewhere that the indexing is not working as hoped for and it is actually rebuilding the entire index when you download a new book (please correct me if I'm wrong) and I have noticed that no matter how big the resource is, it takes about the same amount of time to index one book as compared to rebuilding the entire index.

I may very well be very wrong here but I am thinking that the amount of memory your computer has is just as important as your processor speed. I have maxed out my memory in my laptop with 2 gig (told you it was old [:)] ) and would suggest more memory if you can afford it and your computer is not already maxed out.

Finally, I could easily see where downloads could be a major pain in the neck if you have a slower internet connection. The last update with the interlinears was over 1 gig in size. <I wish I had a good "wow" icon to place here>

One way around a slow internet connection for a laptop is to visit a local coffee shop or something that has free Wi-Fi. Even our Wendy's restaurant in the small town that I live in offers it! You can then take the laptop home and transfer things to your desktop computer. I believe that the wiki has instructions for this.

Just a few thoughts.

Rick

Chris Walley

Oh Yes! How I agree. I did wonder whether Screwtape had had an hand/claw in the programming.... Oh and did you mention that in 3 you could do that clever Smartag thing with references in Word.

Can we have Libronix Lite?

Chris