Rights associated with Logos notes

Here's an interesting thread on Amazon uploading people's notes on books they read in Kindle.

A few comments raise interesting concerns.

If I keep notes in Logos that I later intend to use for a book, am I risking compromising my interest and rights to that material by letting Logos store those notes?

There are already world-wide conversations about the legal responsibilities and rights of storage providers. If an internet service provider can be forced by a government to hand over even temporary information, can they force Logos to hand over user notes in a legal case?

In these times, criticism of people's "life-styles" can be considered criminal in the UK and other countries. Suppose Logos' servers are hacked or information leaked through a mistake that leads to incarceration, fines or death. You might not think this is an issue because we all have the best of intentions, but the world around us is building quite an anti-Christian attitude. Logos' users are also not restricted to living in the United States.

Given the direction society is going in, I'm beginning to be more defensive about information.

I don't think Logos can take the approach of asking all of us to assume that they are entirely neutral or benevolent in this issue. They might intend to be, but can be forced to divulge information that an evil society can use to damage people.

At the very least, just as Logos licenses their product with a contract to customers, they should at least enter into a contract to keep anything a user writes absolutely confidential. Is that in place? I don't remember seeing anything about it when I bought L4? Did I miss anything? 

Jim:

Given the direction society is going in, I'm beginning to be more defensive about information.

The points you raise, and the comments in the Amazon thread (to this date/time) raise valid concerns for some users of these kinds of devices, web-services or reader applications.

Myself and others have been asking for the choice to disable the SYNC of our user-generated content so it is NOT stored on the Logos servers.

Idealy, we could set the sync control to one of: Solid OFF, Default OFF but by document, Default ON but by document, Solid ON. Then a flag for each user item, that could be set and display to indicate state.

To date, Logos has not been prepaired to provide anything other than what amounts to the "Solid ON" as above. At best, its possible to disable some of the automatic use of the internet within the application, but its an all-or-nothing switch. To disable SYNC that way, you need to give up "Report Typo", Homepage information and maybe a few lesser things. Not ideal.

At least one user is known to have found a way to block sync by controlling what external IP connections are permitted, but its less than idea, and the application never gives up doing retries all day.

Fred, I could not disagree with you more, Jim may be off in some areas, but his concerns are valid and in the next few years this will become more clear to those that have open minds.

Even now there are becoming more and more abuses of power under different laws that most Americans don't even know are on the books.

I seriously doubt that these abuses can be stopped at this point in time, but at least if a person is open minded, when things become worse a person may be able to avoid some of the problems that otherwise would certainly fall upon him and his family.  

In Christ,

Jim 

MJ. Smith:

Can we declare politics, social prognostication, legal rulings, judgment of individuals, etc. as all NOT related to Logos software? I probably should edit or remove my previous post.

MJ:

I usually agree with you - but this time I do not.  As long as LOGOS has chosen to store information on their (or on other's) servers, it seems wise to discuss the legal and ethical ramifications of choosing to let them do so.  It may be tiring to hear some of the same arguments restated, but it is an important discussion - regardless of your concerns or the lack there of.

Floyd Johnson:

it seems wise to discuss the legal and ethical ramifications of choosing to let them do so.

I agree - when that is being discussed. However, "I seriously doubt that these abuses can be stopped at this point in time, but at least if a person is open minded, when things become worse a person may be able to avoid some of the problems that otherwise would certainly fall upon him and his family.  " is NOT a discussion of legal and ethical ramifications. That post is the one that made me not want to go over this again.

I had gone back and removed much of my original post to stick solely to legal issues - which would be very appropriate if people could speak from knowledge (which I do not have) instead of passing on third-hand fears. For example, I do think a group of UK users presented a solid case based on UK law that they need the ability to label prayer lists as not synced - recognizing explicitly the loss of functionality in backup and syncing multiple copies.

MJ. Smith the fact that you state my comment was not addressing legal and ethical ramifications is shocking because that is what I am addressing without going into details, which, I can not go into.

I would be interested what do you assume I was talking about???

In Christ,

Jim

MJ. Smith, I have no idea how any of your last statements related to you thinking I was not addressing an opinion on the legal and ethical ramifictions. Maybe you need to reread my post.

I was very general in my comments, and I will keep my statements general concerning our rights, and for a good reason, you can take heed concerning my words or not, it is up to you, but keep an open mind and keep your eyes open, in the media, about abuses of power, by this country, look in the areas of telephone and internet records being searched without proper authority.  There are examples in the last few years of some very interesting court cases concerning certain abuses that were discovered. 

We don't need to get carried away on these subjects, but it is nice to know if a bus is out of control and heading your way,  so that you are able to step out of the way of the bus if you can.

By the way Libronix 3 did not have these concerns.

I will state it again, Jim has valid concerns!

In Christ,

Jim

Excerpt from a 1/20/10 article: [emphasis mine]

Microsoft Corp.'s top legal official today called on Congress to create new laws that would give data stored in the cloud the same protections as data stored on a PC. He also called for tougher penalties for hackers who access data centers, citing significant damage that's often done in such attacks....

 

And in the same article concerning a contract between the City of Los Angeles and Google:

 

Moreover, the contract signed last October obligates Google to keep the city's data physically located in the United States. The contract allows the city to audit the data to ensure compliance...

 

And near the conclusion

 

Users of cloud services will need to know what is happening to their data, Nelson added. Cloud providers will not only have to ensure data is safe, but "we are going to have to show them why it is safe," he said, and that will mean having technology that can show customers when their data is accessed.

Jonathan Rochelle, a group product manager at Google, said there is nothing special about the privacy and security risks in the cloud, but those risk are "more transparent, more collective and more open. "

Mark Rasch, attorney and technology expert, writes [2008]:

This iteration of "cloud computing" puts your personal data on an accessible server held by a third party, which you replicate on multiple machines and access from virtually anywhere. Putting aside the security, data storage, data retention, data destruction and other pesky issues associated with doing business in the cloud, one fundamental issue remains: Your data is being hosted, stored and transmitted through a third party.  As far as the law is concerned then, that third party has control of your data and may therefore be subject to a subpoena for your data, often without your knowledge or ability to object.

In "Who owns the data cloud, the answers could get tricky [2010]"  at Government Computer News, participants in a panel make these comments:

Cloud computing refers to services, applications, and data storage delivered online through powerful file servers. ....Why do we [the US gov't] have our data in India or China or other places where they shouldn’t be?....The hard question from a public cloud perspective is, how do you ensure the data is now your property and not the property of the cloud vendor?...One possible way to maintain control is to encrypt the data before it leaves the organization’s boundary. It would only be decrypted when it gets back into the enterprise.

These articles show that knowledgeable companies, government agencies and individuals are concerned about the issues I brought up in my original post. It certainly seems that legal issues regarding ownership rights and data security in cloud computing are important and lack clear legal definition. It is then up to the vendors of such services to establish clear policies and contractual guarantees as best they can and to inform their customers of legal responsibilities as well as risks. Again I ask has Logos done this and I missed it? (If so, it wouldn't be the first time I've raised an issue out of ignorance)

Christians can be, and in my opinion will certainly be, in a more precarious situation than the general public in regards to their cloud data. And if so the reason would be due to the cultural atmosphere. The general public seems to be marching (or marched) down the path of political correctness. They certainly have no philosophy to oppose it with. Christians might argue that we don't have anything to fear since we aren't crooks nor have malicious or harmful intent. But maliciousness is becoming a matter of political correctness.

The governments of Europe and the USA are focused upon political correctness. The legal guarantees and definitions of the original US constitution have now been twisted to fit these current philosophies. In the UK a pastor was recently arrested (then released) for making casual comments about homosexuality while witnessing. This was not an isolated case by far. The general tenor of the power elite is that a Christianity that calls people to repentance and Biblical moral accountability is a significant source of irritation and problems. I certainly don't preach against people with a judgmental attitude, but simple Biblical truth about sin is becoming more and more offensive to our society as they reject God more and more.

Fred made the point that the government can get my personal PC too. But the difference is that it is a lot harder to search through thousands of individual computers spread out all over the country/world than it is to search Logos' data base.

Please note that missionaries in sensitive countries already keep such data in encrypted partitions on their HDD,  so this is not a futuristic, trivial point.

Again I'm just thinking about the future based upon trends I see going on. I think that Solomon's advice was to do just that, so I'm not ashamed of asking some prudent questions.

As a result of thinking this over, I'm just going get into the habit of keeping my personal commentary, sermons etc. outside of Logos4 and only storing stuff that is direct quotations and links to references inside Logos4. Who knows, maybe someday just owning certain resources will be criminal, but since I think that's a way off in the future yet,  I won't be that paranoid now. 

BobbyTerhune:

After all, the books I have contain hate speech by some accounts, and the fact I own these books can be construed by some authorities as reflecting my views

I made that point at the end of my last post. Historically that type of discrimination has been employed. It's not a serious issue in the US yet, however the trend is moving in that direction and already has serious momentum. Who knows if and when it will become an urgent matter to us. But the signs of it are getting stronger by the year. Logos is building a platform for the future so I bring these things up as something that I would feel better if they were considered now.

 

Richard, I always appreciate your posts and this was no different. I too have had some involvement with copyrights, but its been quite some time ago so your info was helpful. The idea of the registered letter is interesting. I suppose you have to keep it sealed until presented in evidence in a court?

You are certainly right on target when you say

it's not clear that copyright protection would help keep these documents from government scrutiny

.
I'd say it is NO protection. It's even debated whether copyright is of ANY protection NOW. It is probably more of a protection if you are very wealthy and there is a lot of money at stake.

Here's some further thoughts prompted by your post (keep in mind I'm not a lawyer, but have had a little bit of experience with patent and copyright material and that I too am just expressing my opinions):

• Up until recently, what we kept on our physical computers has been no different than what we kept on paper in a set of file drawers. If we take reasonable measures to control access, then the information can be considered owned by us and private. The definition of reasonable measures is going to depend on the environment. In our homes or private office we may not need to lock the files, but in a high traffic area a lock is necessary. The more measures we take to exert control over our material the easier it is to defend a claim of privacy and rights associated with ownership. The same applies to a computer. If we keep our computers in our physical possession, locked up and perhaps password protected or encrypted if necessary, then anyone who copies and uses our info without our explicit permission could be legally liable for damage or loss of income we may suffer. But just because one or two friends or colleagues do read it with or without our permission does not technically constitute publication.

• Original sermons, Bible study lessons as well as written words and artwork are the author's creative work and can be considered their intellectual property if they take appropriate measures to keep them private. They then have the right to copyright them, profit from them, and control their distribution.

• As you know, if someone publishes their material, that is, clearly makes it available for general consumption without the copyright notice, then they cannot later claim copyright protection.

• Some publishers will not consider work that has been previously make public.

• You said

  As long as notes can be tied to the author who generated them, that material belongs to the one who generated the material.

  As you already know, the key issue in claiming legal ownership is the action taken to control access.

• Now the internet changes all this. People are finding out the emails are not private property. Even their searches are subject to government surveillance. Now comes cloud computing. Cloud computing is similar to keeping your papers/notes in a file cabinet located in a public storage facility where thousands of people come and go to store their files. If you do that, then your rights of ownership are going to depend upon the contract you have with the owners of the facility, the measures they take to protect your material and the laws governing that kind of business. Keeping with this analogy, it would be prudent then to consider what "neighborhood" the storage facility is located in. Is it a high crime area? Do the criminals have powerful tools? Is corruption common in the local culture? If so I'd at least expect very strong protections (walls, gates, locks, lights, patrol guards) and strong guarantees from the owner. I would also want to know what the local laws are (where the files are physically stored) and how that local government has applied them and how they are likely to apply them in the future.

• Logos may have the best of intentions. But there is already precedence that since businesses have more at stake and are more visible targets than individuals government pressure is effective at getting them to reveal data.

• This is somewhat similar to a situation we had about 10 years ago. Churches were getting gung-ho about putting all manner of church activities and information on the web because that's what the world was doing. "Let promote our missionaries!" Sounded wonderful at first. However we had to quickly stop people from putting pictures and information about missionaries serving in certain countries because it would endanger their ministry and in some cases, lives.

Perhaps people think I'm a nut at this point but I just think we should consider that we are ambassadors and aliens in a foreign kingdom and act accordingly. Furthermore I have found in my career that it's the things you take for granted that come back to bite you. At the very least I'm hoping that this thread will alert people to think about these things.

I'd like to see Logos honor these concerns in the design of the program. For example, allow people the option to flag some user data so it will not be stored on their server. I also think that the program needs a clear indication at the top that shows "working offline". It's too late when you see the little arrows going 'round when you didn't want to be on line. Frankly, if I was going to certain countries to work, I would not want Logos 4. Even a slight slip of it sending data through foreign ISPs could spell difficulty or disaster.