Logos 8 v 7 - Whats missing?

Page 5 of 7 (129 items) « First ... < Previous 3 4 5 6 7 Next >
This post has 128 Replies | 10 Followers

Posts 2992
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 6:07 PM

Denise:

Bruce Dunning:

Denise:
- I spend time on the forum, in hopes of pushing towards a tool usable by the church.

Thank you for taking time to explain this. I didn't realize that this was your motivation as it was lost to me in your presentation. I agree with you that, in the past, Logos has not been a great tool to help the average person in the church but I think that L8 has made some huge steps in that direction. In particular workflows are very helpful. Searching still needs more work to make it easier but I believe that they are headed in the right direction.

So, on a positive note, if you had sole control over Logos what would you do to improve it, realizing that the model you suggest needs to be economically sustainable.

I'd do exactly what JoshRI recommended. An intro version. Bob already said the vast (exagerating) majority of FL customers barely get beyond a single purchase. What potential? It's impossible to dummy-down Logos, without hurting the power users. Better an intro ... don't update it all the time. Use the big-boy for gee-whiz stuff.

And the proverbial intro version would have 2 flavors. One for Cynthia's group, and one for MJ's. They seem to be pretty typical (the groups).

Isn't that kind of what the Faithlife Study Bible app is?

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband

How to upload logs

Visit My Site: Reformed Truths

Posts 8835
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 6:29 PM

Denise:

Bruce Dunning:

Denise:
- I spend time on the forum, in hopes of pushing towards a tool usable by the church.

Thank you for taking time to explain this. I didn't realize that this was your motivation as it was lost to me in your presentation. I agree with you that, in the past, Logos has not been a great tool to help the average person in the church but I think that L8 has made some huge steps in that direction. In particular workflows are very helpful. Searching still needs more work to make it easier but I believe that they are headed in the right direction.

So, on a positive note, if you had sole control over Logos what would you do to improve it, realizing that the model you suggest needs to be economically sustainable.

I'd do exactly what JoshRI recommended. An intro version. Bob already said the vast (exagerating) majority of FL customers barely get beyond a single purchase. What potential? It's impossible to dummy-down Logos, without hurting the power users. Better an intro ... don't update it all the time. Use the big-boy for gee-whiz stuff.

And the proverbial intro version would have 2 flavors. One for Cynthia's group, and one for MJ's. They seem to be pretty typical (the groups).

Those are reasonable suggestions.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 9962
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 6:49 PM

David Taylor Jr:

Denise:

I'd do exactly what JoshRI recommended. An intro version. Bob already said the vast (exagerating) majority of FL customers barely get beyond a single purchase. What potential? It's impossible to dummy-down Logos, without hurting the power users. Better an intro ... don't update it all the time. Use the big-boy for gee-whiz stuff.

And the proverbial intro version would have 2 flavors. One for Cynthia's group, and one for MJ's. They seem to be pretty typical (the groups).

Isn't that kind of what the Faithlife Study Bible app is?

Not remotely. Nor is that FL's intent.

The easiest way to understand JoshRI's points is to sit in Bible classes, and literally watch the participants. Break it out by gender ... the two operate differently. I'm not FL, but I'd also encourage well-known teacher packages, again to ease the path of entry.


Posts 2775
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 7:16 PM

Matthew:
I wish there was a "commentary picker" tool where I could easily pick my top five commentaries for each individual book of the Bible

I did this years ago by modifying Series settings.  It took some time, but I can now have my top 4 commentaries on each book in a panel, and it follows (correctly) when I switch from book-to-book in the bible.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 8835
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 7:19 PM

Doc B:

Matthew:
I wish there was a "commentary picker" tool where I could easily pick my top five commentaries for each individual book of the Bible

I did this years ago by modifying Series settings.  It took some time, but I can now have my top 4 commentaries on each book in a panel, and it follows (correctly) when I switch from book-to-book in the bible.

Hey Doc, do you have this in a format that you could share with us? I'd be interested to see your work.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 2775
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 7:21 PM

Mark Barnes:
It's certainly true that some things that are different,

Just a side note, Mark, but one of the worst things you can do if you sell very complex software is to make things "different," especially if the software is a high-dollar investment that folks will hope to spend some hard time learning then use for years.

So "different" is a legitimate issue for many.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 2775
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 7:32 PM

Bruce Dunning:
Hey Doc, do you have this in a format that you could share with us? I'd be interested to see your work.

Not easily. There was a thread with some detail, but it's been so long ago I may have trouble finding it.  If I can, I'll post a link for you. If I can't, I'll try to write up a summary, hopefully able to remember all the details. Confused

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 26021
Forum MVP
MJ. Smith | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 7:45 PM

Denise:

Not remotely. Nor is that FL's intent.

The easiest way to understand JoshRI's points is to sit in Bible classes, and literally watch the participants. Break it out by gender ... the two operate differently. I'm not FL, but I'd also encourage well-known teacher packages, again to ease the path of entry.

Of course, I can't simply agree with Denise ... that would absolutely destroy my carefully cultivated reputation. Stick out tongue I'm going to exaggerate the difference in "two schools" of Bible study. I'd say that when FL sits in a Bible class and watch, they need two very distinct types of Bible study classes -  one that is sola scriptura, individual interpretation, hyper-literal and hyper-factual, guide for living ... one that is scripture/tradition/reason, interpretation within the church, Bible as narrative in the sense known at the time it was written, guide for spiritual growth.

Orthodox Bishop Hilarion Alfeyev: "To be a theologian means to have experience of a personal encounter with God through prayer and worship."

Posts 13210
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 10:50 PM

Doc B:
So "different" is a legitimate issue for many.

Whilst I 100% agree that "different" is a legitimate issue…

Doc B:
Just a side note, Mark, but one of the worst things you can do if you sell very complex software is to make things "different," especially if the software is a high-dollar investment that folks will hope to spend some hard time learning then use for years.

…I completely disagree with this.

Every single major developer of software has had to make significant changes to that software over its lifetime to keep it current (think Microsoft's Word's ribbon). If Faithlife hadn't done that, we'd still be using Libronix the Logos Library System on Windows 3.1. (Or you might be. I'd have jumped ship to Accordance, high-dollar investment or not.)

The more I have invested of my money, then the more I'm willing to invest of my time in order to learn better ways of doing things. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing quicker. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing in a different way. And, yes, sometimes that means having to adapt my habits to suit the new tools better.

Voicing disapproval, and appealing to Faithlife for change is perfectly legitimate, especially when a new major version has been released. But, once things have settled down, fighting against the system just isn't worth it. If we still want to be using Logos Bible Software in 2045 (and I'm planning to!), then just as Faithlife have to adapt, so do we.

Posts 13210
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sat, Nov 10 2018 10:55 PM

John Goodman:

Can anyone tell me what font that list of changes is?

Gotham.

Posts 8835
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 5:38 AM

Doc B:

Bruce Dunning:
Hey Doc, do you have this in a format that you could share with us? I'd be interested to see your work.

Not easily. There was a thread with some detail, but it's been so long ago I may have trouble finding it.  If I can, I'll post a link for you. If I can't, I'll try to write up a summary, hopefully able to remember all the details. Confused

Thanks Doc

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 8835
Forum MVP
Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 5:43 AM

Mark Barnes:
The more I have invested of my money, then the more I'm willing to invest of my time in order to learn better ways of doing things. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing quicker. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing in a different way. And, yes, sometimes that means having to adapt my habits to suit the new tools better.

Wow, this describes my experience and perspective perfectly. A willingness to learn and adapt is key.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

Posts 2176
Forum MVP
John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 6:19 AM

Bruce Dunning:

Mark Barnes:
The more I have invested of my money, then the more I'm willing to invest of my time in order to learn better ways of doing things. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing quicker. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing in a different way. And, yes, sometimes that means having to adapt my habits to suit the new tools better.

Wow, this describes my experience and perspective perfectly. A willingness to learn and adapt is key.

I agree, but also strongly feel that software developers have a responsibility to be sensitive to customer workflow and features being utilized by their customers. In conjunction with changes needs to be a map that directs users on how do adapt the changes into their workflow. Many users feel this should be intuitive and not require significant efforts to adapt to the new structure. Therein lies the problem of defining what this balance should be.

I personally enjoy the change and learning how to improve my workflow with each update, but realize many do not. Some users have had their workflow disrupted by some changes that were probably not necessary for the improvement of the software. The good news is FL is aware of those and are working to adapt accordingly.

Posts 2992
David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 6:47 AM

John Fidel:

Bruce Dunning:

Mark Barnes:
The more I have invested of my money, then the more I'm willing to invest of my time in order to learn better ways of doing things. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing quicker. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing in a different way. And, yes, sometimes that means having to adapt my habits to suit the new tools better.

Wow, this describes my experience and perspective perfectly. A willingness to learn and adapt is key.

I agree, but also strongly feel that software developers have a responsibility to be sensitive to customer workflow and features being utilized by their customers. In conjunction with changes needs to be a map that directs users on how do adapt the changes into their workflow. Many users feel this should be intuitive and not require significant efforts to adapt to the new structure. Therein lies the problem of defining what this balance should be.

While I agree with this, it should be taken with a grain of salt. There are some who just refuse to even try to change, and that is not right either. I also agree with Mark that it is fruitless to keep fighting the system after the dust has settled. Some things we have won on (example: FL is actively working on restoring some of the old Homepage functionality) and some things we have lost on (Example: Note Titles). But if we are honest, many many MANY of the things are done in L8 the exact same way they were done in L7. The things that are different (aside from notes which is a complete overhaul but even then is not as much of a learning curve as some seem to make it out to be) are different to make things better if you take the time to sit down and try and understand why the tool has changed the way it has.

As a beta tester, I have heard accusations that those of us who had access to the software early aren't sensitive and have already had time to adapt. While it is true that we have had time to adapt, a key is that we TRIED to adapt, and, for the most part, succeeded. Keep a positive attitude, ask questions, watch the quickstart videos. The new software is well worth the effort and time.

Teacher, Ministry Leader, Student, Author, Husband

How to upload logs

Visit My Site: Reformed Truths

Posts 13210
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 7:20 AM

One of the biggest fights us customers won 'against' Logos was over inline reverse interlinears with Logos 4. We all hated the ribbon, and wanted the L3 way of inline reverse-interlinears back. I was among many that argued for it to be re-added. Logos relented, but by the time it was re-added (only a few months), I'd got used to the ribbon and I've hardly ever used the old method since. That was an important lesson to me.

Posts 9962
Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 7:32 AM

Mark Barnes:

…I completely disagree with this.

Every single major developer of software has had to make significant changes to that software over its lifetime to keep it current (think Microsoft's Word's ribbon). If Faithlife hadn't done that, we'd still be using Libronix the Logos Library System on Windows 3.1. (Or you might be. I'd have jumped ship to Accordance, high-dollar investment or not.)

The more I have invested of my money, then the more I'm willing to invest of my time in order to learn better ways of doing things. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing quicker. Sometimes that means using new tools to do the same thing in a different way. And, yes, sometimes that means having to adapt my habits to suit the new tools better.

Voicing disapproval, and appealing to Faithlife for change is perfectly legitimate, especially when a new major version has been released. But, once things have settled down, fighting against the system just isn't worth it. If we still want to be using Logos Bible Software in 2045 (and I'm planning to!), then just as Faithlife have to adapt, so do we.

Mark ...

1. Logos isn't adding machine software. Or typewriter software. Or send pictures to your mom software. The users (in theory) are concerned with sharing the hope of salvation with as many people as possible. Not spending hours on interesting changes and poorly planned interfaces.

2. Logos isn't a baby. And the developers aren't gods. They make mistakes, rush things, force things. And need to fix things.

3. When we buy a Cadallac, we don't think, well learning this thing (again) is part of the price. When we check into a nice hotel, we don't expect hard to use but well worth it! Logos asks for premium prices (or packages of books you don't need) ... the product should be easy to use.

4. It wasn't weeks ago, users were piling on, saying searches! Just fix the internals! Is that what they got? Of course not. Need another update. Or another. Or another.

5. I'll wait. 


Posts 13210
Forum MVP
Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 7:42 AM

Denise:
3. When we buy a Cadallac, we don't think, well learning this thing (again) is part of the price. When we check into a nice hotel, we don't expect hard to use but well worth it! Logos asks for premium prices (or packages of books you don't need) ... the product should be easy to use.

If I bought a Ferrari, you can bet your life I'd take some extra driving lessons that I hadn't needed when I was driving a Toyota Camry. And if Ferrari bought out a new model, with a fancy new gearbox and electronic wizardry, you can be pretty sure I'd be paying careful attention to the dealer when he explained how to get the most out of the new system. And I certainly wouldn't try and drive it the same as the Camry, or even the old Ferrari…

Posts 1878
Forum MVP
Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 10:53 AM

Mark Barnes:

One of the biggest fights us customers won 'against' Logos was over inline reverse interlinears with Logos 4. We all hated the ribbon, and wanted the L3 way of inline reverse-interlinears back. I was among many that argued for it to be re-added. Logos relented, but by the time it was re-added (only a few months), I'd got used to the ribbon and I've hardly ever used the old method since. That was an important lesson to me.

But if you hadn't "won", we probably wouldn't have the incredibly useful "Reader's Edition" RI! All in all, I'm grateful for a really responsive software company and an incredible community of users/experts/critics!

Posts 2775
Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 11:12 AM

Mark Barnes:
(think Microsoft's Word's ribbon)

Actually, your example supports my assertion fully.  If you compare the ribbon from the early 90s (Windows 3.1 days) until now, the level of consistency has been amazing.  Yes, they've made changes, but those are mostly additional features...many of the ribbon buttons look identical to 25 years ago and execute the same functions.

SPSS is another example. I've used the software since grad school, and over some 35 years, can still log on an run a two-sample independent t-test without any trouble. The software has grown tremendously, but the basics and the fundamental usage hasn't changed.  There are many others.

I'm not questioning the need for Logos to be improved, but the drastic changes that come about because of any reason other than necessity should be minimized. That was my point. And if you ask software experts, they'll agree with me on the importance of consistency in user interface (as I  see some have already, below).

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 227
Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 11:13 AM

John Fidel:
I agree, but also strongly feel that software developers have a responsibility to be sensitive to customer workflow and features being utilized by their customers. In conjunction with changes needs to be a map that directs users on how do adapt the changes into their workflow. Many users feel this should be intuitive and not require significant efforts to adapt to the new structure. Therein lies the problem of defining what this balance should be.

This for me is the point that needs to be understood by Faithlife.

I needed the document that Phil Gons has just published when I installed the update, it would have save me a lot of time and frustration and I would have been a much happier customer. Most of the detail in the document was available before 8 was released so this being available on day 1 was possible it was just not a priority for Faithlife. My hope is that Faithlife will learn the lesson and communicate better in the future...

I totally get that software will change for many reasons and that some of the change will always involve the UI, I also accept that most of the time real progress is made as part of the change so personally I'm not against change, I just want to know how the change is going to impact me with my existing workflow on day one so that I can adapt quickly and then start looking at the new stuff.

Page 5 of 7 (129 items) « First ... < Previous 3 4 5 6 7 Next > | RSS