Logos 8 v 7 - Whats missing?

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Reuben Helmuth | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 11:55 AM

Graham Owen:
I'm not against change, I just want to know how the change is going to impact me with my existing workflow on day one so that I can adapt quickly and then start looking at the new stuff.

This is a reasonable expectation and one that I hope will be satisfied during L9 launch!

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 12:56 PM

Mark Barnes:

Denise:
3. When we buy a Cadallac, we don't think, well learning this thing (again) is part of the price. When we check into a nice hotel, we don't expect hard to use but well worth it! Logos asks for premium prices (or packages of books you don't need) ... the product should be easy to use.

If I bought a Ferrari, you can bet your life I'd take some extra driving lessons that I hadn't needed when I was driving a Toyota Camry. And if Ferrari bought out a new model, with a fancy new gearbox and electronic wizardry, you can be pretty sure I'd be paying careful attention to the dealer when he explained how to get the most out of the new system. And I certainly wouldn't try and drive it the same as the Camry, or even the old Ferrari…

This is an excellent illustration.

To return to software, most people only use a small portion of what they purchase. I use Word and Excel almost every day and still don't know how to use half of its features.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Donovan R. Palmer | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 1:03 PM

MJ. Smith:

LOGOS 8 Saint resources are treated essentially as Daily Devotionals - lacking the date control (and hence, saint list control) of Logos 7 ... this is useful for personal devotions

LOGOS 7 Used a specific resource to index saint resources into a sanctoral (worship) cycle that was used to plan liturgies and worships. Along side the lectionary it allows for a complete planning of the worship service.

MJ --

Brilliant analysis... I really appreciate you championing this and other liturgical oriented elements of Logos!  Maybe Logos should put you on their staff?

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 1:10 PM

Bruce Dunning:

Mark Barnes:

Denise:
3. When we buy a Cadallac, we don't think, well learning this thing (again) is part of the price. When we check into a nice hotel, we don't expect hard to use but well worth it! Logos asks for premium prices (or packages of books you don't need) ... the product should be easy to use.

If I bought a Ferrari, you can bet your life I'd take some extra driving lessons that I hadn't needed when I was driving a Toyota Camry. And if Ferrari bought out a new model, with a fancy new gearbox and electronic wizardry, you can be pretty sure I'd be paying careful attention to the dealer when he explained how to get the most out of the new system. And I certainly wouldn't try and drive it the same as the Camry, or even the old Ferrari…

This is an excellent illustration.

To return to software, most people only use a small portion of what they purchase. I use Word and Excel almost every day and still don't know how to use half of its features.

Ok, I'll bite! Folks in our burg sadly admire the local Ferraris and Masseratis, knowing a tow truck will be needed on their inevitable journey down to Phoenix. Maybe a great time for their owners to carefully watch their user videos, they spent so much money on.


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Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 1:12 PM

Denise:
When we buy a Cadallac

Never really understood why we use so many car based analogies for IT...

Some years ago Faithlife, or Logos as it was called then, had the foresight to realise that the real value they could deliver comes from being able to access high quality resources efficiently and chose to make the software "free".

When I first used Logos, it was primarily a Bible Searching program and it was amazing... The search tool enabled me to quickly find verses and soon became my new best friend.

Fast forward to today and while the search tool remains a great feature the value has extended to an extensive library of resources and because of this for me the library, it's tagging, the ability to organise it, these are the things that matter. Today, for me at least, the software is important because of how it enables me to access the library. I don't know at what point on my journey this became my reality but today the real value of Logos is the library and not the software.

What I see in 8 is a bunch of new features that should help me get more from my library when I get the time to play with them and integrate them into my workflow.

In the meantime I do expect to be able to access my expensive library with minimal interruption and in fairness to 8 that is possible once the changes are understood. If we go back to the car analogy for 8 vs 7 for me its like the difference between driving my car or my wife's car where the indicators and windscreen wiper controls are on different sides of the steering wheel, the change is noticeable, has some impact but it is relatively easy to adjust (although it does seem like errors occur at awkward times). 

Of course we do need to acknowledge that the impact for users from a liturgical tradition is much greater. Something that it is easy to overlook as we focus on our own frustrations. I do hope Faithlife prioritise the functionality that has been highlighted by these users as personally I feel my issues pale to insignificance compared to their's. 

Without ignoring the facts that it was released early with inadequate communications; for most non liturgical users 8 does deliver better performance than 7 and has some new features that I suspect will develop into genuinely useful tools and while some of us may have chosen to wait for a 8.x if we had known more personally I can still use my library even if someone did steal my favourite chair and desk.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 1:15 PM

Denise:
Ok, I'll bite! Folks in our burg sadly admire the local Ferraris and Masseratis, knowing a tow truck will be needed on their inevitable journey down to Phoenix. Maybe a great time for their owners to carefully watch their user videos, they spent so much money on.

I'm sure both of us could make the illustration go in whichever way suited our purposes :-). The the essential point remains — the more you invest (effort, time, money, in order of importance) — the more you get out. Nothing comes for minimal effort, least of all studying God's word.

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Bruce Dunning | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 1:29 PM

Denise:
Ok, I'll bite! Folks in our burg sadly admire the local Ferraris and Masseratis, knowing a tow truck will be needed on their inevitable journey down to Phoenix. Maybe a great time for their owners to carefully watch their user videos, they spent so much money on.

Are you saying the Logos users will need a metaphorical tow truck at some point where it breaks down to the point of needing a tow truck? Although Logos might not work exactly the way I want (or know) I've always been able to get from point A to B in my biblical studies - certainly much better than I ever did with my paper books. And the more I learn, the more I'm able to use it better.

Using adventure and community to challenge young people to continually say "yes" to God

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 1:38 PM

Phil Gons (Faithlife):

This is indeed a very helpful article.

Though I have to admit the first thought that crossed my mind, about two-thirds the way through, was, "Why in the world did they release this before all this stuff was complete?" Almost every point seems to say something like, "We'll be adding this/bringing this back in the near future."

I'm a bit puzzled, but I'm not a decision-maker at FL and I don't know all the corollaries, so I'll roll with it.

I do wish, "near future" was defined. Past experience hasn't always been good in that regard.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

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Graham Owen | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 1:42 PM

Reuben Helmuth:

Graham Owen:
I'm not against change, I just want to know how the change is going to impact me with my existing workflow on day one so that I can adapt quickly and then start looking at the new stuff.

This is a reasonable expectation and one that I hope will be satisfied during L9 launch!

I doubt that 9 will be as high impact Reuben.

For me there was definitely a degree of complacency about the nature of upgrades, this is the worst since 3 became 4 in my opinion. 5, 6 and 7 were pretty non eventful on day one for me which made some of the things that I saw all the more shocking.

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Denise | Forum Activity | Replied: Sun, Nov 11 2018 2:19 PM

Mark Barnes:

I'm sure both of us could make the illustration go in whichever way suited our purposes :-). The the essential point remains — the more you invest (effort, time, money, in order of importance) — the more you get out. Nothing comes for minimal effort, least of all studying God's word.

Agree on illustrations ... they rarely fit perfectly. But your final comment enters theological territory. I'm a big believer in Jesus' commands (just believe), Peter and Pentecost (Joel), and the maximum that average folks across time could consume ... be good. No need for a Ferrari.


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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 2:15 AM

Doc B:
If you compare the ribbon from the early 90s (Windows 3.1 days) until now, the level of consistency has been amazing. 

There wasn't a ribbon in the early 1990s. That's the point. The ribbon didn't exist until 2007. You've forgotten how much has changed, and how disruptive that change was at the time. Now, I bet you wouldn't find 1% of people who would want to go back.

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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Mon, Nov 12 2018 2:20 AM

Denise:
But your final comment enters theological territory. I'm a big believer in Jesus' commands (just believe), Peter and Pentecost (Joel), and the maximum that average folks across time could consume ... be good. No need for a Ferrari.

I agree with that, of course.

Yet one of the very best things about the Bible is that it's simple enough for a child to grasp and deep enough that decades of intense study will no exhaust its depths.

I agree with your desire to keep Bible study simple. Logos hasn't always been good at that, but it's getting much better. There's still some way to go. But remember that many of the features that some intermediate users find confusing will simply not be available to beginner users using Logos Basic or Logos Starter. Remember too that new users won't have the baggage of having to unlearn older ways of doing things.

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John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 13 2018 2:20 AM

Mark Barnes:

John Goodman:

Can anyone tell me what font that list of changes is?

Gotham.

Thanks Mark - appreciated!

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

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Doc B | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 13 2018 6:20 AM

You are right that I don't remember the terminology from back then, but I do remember very little frustration during the transition, as the menu items, whatever they were called, functioned in the same (or very similar) ways.

My thanks to the various MVPs. Without them Logos would have died early. They were the only real help available.

Faithlife Corp. owes the MVPs free resources for life.

Posts 13199
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Mark Barnes | Forum Activity | Replied: Tue, Nov 13 2018 8:52 AM

Doc B:

You are right that I don't remember the terminology from back then, but I do remember very little frustration during the transition, as the menu items, whatever they were called, functioned in the same (or very similar) ways.

Then that illustrates recognise that different people see the same transition differently. Your attitude towards the Office 2007 ribbon revolution seems to be most users' response to the Logos 8 changes.

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John Goodman | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 14 2018 1:17 AM

Since Logos 8 came out I seem to be missing:

  • waiting around for things to happen.
  • frustration with the useless notes system.
  • my disappointment with the web app.
  • using google to search the Bible instead of Logos.
  • wishing the library view was intuitive and fun to browse.
  • enough money for all the interesting deals I'd like to purchase;)

גַּם־חֹשֶׁךְ֮ לֹֽא־יַחְשִׁ֪יךְ מִ֫מֶּ֥ךָ וְ֭לַיְלָה כַּיּ֣וֹם יָאִ֑יר כַּ֝חֲשֵׁיכָ֗ה כָּאוֹרָֽה

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 14 2018 4:35 AM

John Goodman:

Since Logos 8 came out I seem to be missing:

  • waiting around for things to happen.
  • frustration with the useless notes system.
  • my disappointment with the web app.
  • using google to search the Bible instead of Logos.
  • wishing the library view was intuitive and fun to browse.
  • enough money for all the interesting deals I'd like to purchase;)

John could you be a little more specific?

  • What do you mean by waiting around for things to happen? The vast majority of people have been reporting L8 is faster than L7
  • How is the notes system useless? Again, many people see it as an advancement over what we used to have. 
  • The web app is an issue but they have been up front with this from day one that it is a work in progress and they years of development to catch up on.
  • The library is more intuitive than it was in L7 but I am curious as to what you would like to see happen with the library?
  • What makes you search google for a reference than L8? To be fair, if I am just looking up a quick verse I probably do this as well, but not for in-depth study.

EDIT: Nevermind, it is way too early in the morning and I missed the humor completely.

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Graham Criddle | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 14 2018 4:38 AM

David

I read John's post to mean that he was pleased that five things he had experienced in Logos 7 were no longer the case in Logos 8

So reporting a positive experience.

Graham

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John Fidel | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 14 2018 4:38 AM

David,

That is John's point... humor... he misses having to wait etc.

John, I think you should be in marketing.

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David Taylor Jr | Forum Activity | Replied: Wed, Nov 14 2018 4:50 AM

Graham Criddle:

David

I read John's post to mean that he was pleased that five things he had experienced in Logos 7 were no longer the case in Logos 8

So reporting a positive experience.

Graham

HAHAHAHAHAHA wow...... I need to go drink some COFFEEEEEEEEE!

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